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Madaglan
Guest
Yeppers.
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LodT
Guest
I’m a cradle Roman Catholic and devoted to the Latin rite, but I’m also devoted to the Divine Office. In our parish, a group meets each morning half an hour before Mass to say Morning Prayer (Lauds) in common. I say the other 6 hours in private at home.
Like others who have posted here, I think it’s a great strength of the Church that she offers such a variety of ways of opening our hearts, minds and souls to God who, after all, did not create us all from a single mould.
There is a saying: comparisons are odious. I tend to go along with that, as in my case, inveterate sinner that I am, whenever I find myself thinking ‘my way is better,’ a closer look reveals a good dollop of secret pride hidden behind it.
Like others who have posted here, I think it’s a great strength of the Church that she offers such a variety of ways of opening our hearts, minds and souls to God who, after all, did not create us all from a single mould.
There is a saying: comparisons are odious. I tend to go along with that, as in my case, inveterate sinner that I am, whenever I find myself thinking ‘my way is better,’ a closer look reveals a good dollop of secret pride hidden behind it.
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roselily
Guest
I listened your words,
Yes, that is true !
Yes, that is true !
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Cathy17
Guest
I once heard a priest say that the Roman Catholic Church is more about the Crucifixion and the Byzantines the Resurrection.
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Aramis
Guest
It’s a gross oversimplification, but generally true.
In fact, it’s also stated in the Australian EC Bishop’s letter to their brother RC bishops…
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Addai
Guest
Well in my opinion after reading this for a few weeks.
- The emphasis of Chanting rather then reading the liturgy is one notable aesthetic. (Once you start hearing a liturgy primarily sung rather then read you will never want to go back!)
- The retaining of old ostentation (ornate robes, incense etc.) and having such rubrics explained in a theological context. Some have described this with Dostoevsky’s saying that “beauty will save the World”.
- A Maximalist perspective that encourages people to do more to benefit themselves spirituality (rather then less which is often the case in a modern western way of doing things). examples longer prayers, liturgy, more fasting etc.
- And in general less reformation and less modernization. Some reforms can have Protestant connotations besides this there is a general “lack of mystique” (A loss of the sense of mystery and wonder that can happen with some modernizations).
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malphono
Guest
All in all, very nicely said, Addai. If I may, I’ll add two comments.
- Your point (4) is generally accurate but, most unfortunately, some of the Orient is rather seriously tainted with the whole “Novus Ordo” thing. It’s done under the artificial guise of “de-latinizing” when, in fact, what it is amounts to a “neo-latinizing” agenda. Frankly, it’s actually quite painful for me to even think about what’s been done already, and even more so to project the liturgical horrors that are yet to be seen.
- To my taste, the Latin Rite OF is an empty shell, (haven’t voluntarily attended one in 30+ years and no plans to start) but I am very familiar with the EF, and actually do attend it regularly. When one takes the time to examine it, you’re right on target: the EF does have qualities similar to those of the East and Orient, and this is especially noticeable when sung.
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bkovacs
Guest
Look at my post here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=325169
Eastern is really not better than Roman, if you follow the Missal, spirituality, rubrics, etc of 1962 or before. They are both ancient liturgies. Only the expressions and focus is different. Meaning in the TLM, Catholics focus more on the crucifiction. Whereas in the Byzantine Liturgy, and other eastern liturgies, the focus is more on the resurection. The problem is that most western Catholics don’t truly understand and appreciate their traditions. Only those that came out after Vatican 2. The Pauline Mass in my opinion is not in the same category, for many reasons as the TLM, or Extra Ordinary Form. So there are many Catholics who look East. To mainly the Byzantine Rite, or the Orthodox Church to find an ancient liturgy, and more traditional customs. Thankfully though, Pope Benedict XVI is hopefully turning the tide in the West. But only time will tell.
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LynnGM
Guest
I would really, really like to become an Eastern Catholic. I feel that I’ve been missing something in the Latin rite mass and parishes. I want a supportive spiritual community. One that is tight knit and that I will know. And, of course, the community must be very Catholic.
In my area, there is too much concern with social justice. There isn’t enough emphasis on stretching yourself spiritually so that you can grow closer to God. If you suggested any “stretch” to Latin rite Catholics 'round here, you’d get looked at funny. (I don’t blame them, I think the church should be doing more.)
Five years ago, I attended two Melkite services at a local Melkite parish. Both were incredibly moving!!! Not to mention a beautiful church, too!!! (For other reasons, I did not continue with Melkite services.) I also liked that there wasn’t an emphasis on novenas, scapulars, Adoration, etc. Everything seemed so mystical!!!
Anyway, I was talking with my hubby about how I am so unexcited and so disappointed with the Latin church. I talked about how important a spiritual community of believers was to me. He agreed with many of my points. so, for Holy Week, we are going to either the local Melkite or Byzantine church.
In my area, there is too much concern with social justice. There isn’t enough emphasis on stretching yourself spiritually so that you can grow closer to God. If you suggested any “stretch” to Latin rite Catholics 'round here, you’d get looked at funny. (I don’t blame them, I think the church should be doing more.)
Five years ago, I attended two Melkite services at a local Melkite parish. Both were incredibly moving!!! Not to mention a beautiful church, too!!! (For other reasons, I did not continue with Melkite services.) I also liked that there wasn’t an emphasis on novenas, scapulars, Adoration, etc. Everything seemed so mystical!!!
Anyway, I was talking with my hubby about how I am so unexcited and so disappointed with the Latin church. I talked about how important a spiritual community of believers was to me. He agreed with many of my points. so, for Holy Week, we are going to either the local Melkite or Byzantine church.
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Diak
Guest
This is the best advice I have heard for some time. I likewise am always hesitant to compare, as ultimately these will almost always fall prey to endless clarification and exceptions.
After having spent a decade with the TLM movement, and then several more with the UGCC, I can only recommend the words of St. Philip the Apostle to Nathaniel - “Come and see”. Some utterings of the spirit cannot be put into words, as we know from Romans 8.
One will certainly be drawn to a certain style or manifestation of liturgy and spirituality, and having experienced that, will need to discern where he is being called.
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wynd
Guest
This is the best time to go. If you can, go to the Pascha (Easter) service that starts at around midnight of Holy Saturday/Easter Sunday.
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Cathy17
Guest
LynnGM,
I’m with you on the mystical thing. The Divine Liturgy is beautiful. I am a Roman Catholic but have been attending a Ruthenian Byzantine Church since I was a kid. There is a reverence there that is missing in the Roman Catholic Church of today. Just my opinion. A lot of the services during Holy Week will probably last a bit longer than what you’re used to. Don’t miss Good Friday. We venerate the tomb with flowers and candles and then there’s an all night vigil. It’s beautiful. Another plus is that the congregations in Byzantine churches are generally small.
I’m with you on the mystical thing. The Divine Liturgy is beautiful. I am a Roman Catholic but have been attending a Ruthenian Byzantine Church since I was a kid. There is a reverence there that is missing in the Roman Catholic Church of today. Just my opinion. A lot of the services during Holy Week will probably last a bit longer than what you’re used to. Don’t miss Good Friday. We venerate the tomb with flowers and candles and then there’s an all night vigil. It’s beautiful. Another plus is that the congregations in Byzantine churches are generally small.
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LynnGM
Guest
Okay, a quick lesson, please!
Akathist? Akathist hymn?
What are those offices said before each service?
Is there an official Melkite equivalent of a “missal”? And is there a book for the Offices and/or Divine Liturgy? A title and/or link to these books would be much appreciated.
PS- Although I’ve said I am looking at the local Byzantine and Melkite churches, I feel a pull towards Melkite because they have a Middle Eastern influence, and that makes me feel closer to Jesus’s culture.
Akathist? Akathist hymn?
What are those offices said before each service?
Is there an official Melkite equivalent of a “missal”? And is there a book for the Offices and/or Divine Liturgy? A title and/or link to these books would be much appreciated.
PS- Although I’ve said I am looking at the local Byzantine and Melkite churches, I feel a pull towards Melkite because they have a Middle Eastern influence, and that makes me feel closer to Jesus’s culture.
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wynd
Guest
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akathist
Not really. The Byzantine liturgy takes texts from a small library of books. A “missal” in the sense of all texts needed for liturgical services between two covers is practically unknown in Eastern Christendom.
Places to start:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Eastern_Orthodox_liturgical_books
melkite.org/Dliturgy.htm
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Aramis
Guest
Akathist is a service to sing an Akathist Hymn, a hymn of praise to a specific saint. They are paraliturgical services, that is, they can be done outside the confines of public liturgical setings, though are normally done as a liturgical event.
Saturday evening is Vespers (evening prayer), and in the Ruthenian use, vigil Divine Liturgy may follow.
Sunday Morning is Matins (morning prayer) and/or 1st and/or 3rd hour. Following the hours, Divine Liturgy.
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LynnGM
Guest
Thank you for the links and explanations!
If not an official Byzantine missal, what about a prayerbook?
If not an official Byzantine missal, what about a prayerbook?
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Aramis
Guest
There are a number of specific prayer books available on-line. Metropolitan Cantor Institute has many of the Ruthenian books up. And the list is growing.
The Ukrainians have Anthology, which is a fairly good resource by all accounts, but not having it myself, I can’t speak authoritatively.
The Ukrainians have Anthology, which is a fairly good resource by all accounts, but not having it myself, I can’t speak authoritatively.
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Antonius_Lupus
Guest
I am a Roman because:
The Patriarchate: It is the rite of the primatial See of St. Peter and in my own journey I find great comfort in being under the Roman Pope as it gives me assurance of heart that I am Orthodox.
My Heritage: It is the rite of my ancestors, the Spaniards and the Austrians.
My Journey: It is the rite I was fully Initiated into.
The Liturgy: The Roman liturgy, especially in its restored form we have now, the ancient terseness, sobriety, and classical nobility of the ancient Roman rite is celebrated. Within the Mass of Paul VI I find a great sense of continuity with the liturgies of the very primitive Roman Church and a great deal of “ancient-ness”.
The old Gallican and Eastern inspired additions to the ancient Roman rite during the Middle Ages have been largely removed, allowing for a much more “Roman” Roman rite Liturgy/Mass. I also hold dear the earlier Mass of Blessed John XXIII because it contains the medieval liturgy with all its beautiful and sacred Gallican and Eastern additions (although I prefer the sacred, noble simplicity and “ancient-ness” of the Mass of Paul VI).
The Theology: The Roman rite’s theology is very precise…as a scrupulous person who spent much of his life searching for deep, satisfying answers, the Roman rite’s theology of kataphasis is comforting and affirmative.
The History: The history of the Roman Church is inspiring as it is the history of my ancestors and of (in many ways) the formation of Occidental Apostolic Christianity.
In short, while I love the Eastern Churches and have a relatively well rooted tie with the Melkite Byzantine Catholics, I am still a Roman and I am not ashamed of that.
There is nothing on Earth quite like a properly celebrated Mass of Paul VI, and I rejoice in that.
That is why I desire to be a priest, so that I may celebrate the Mass of Paul VI as it should be celebrated. God’s will be done.
The Patriarchate: It is the rite of the primatial See of St. Peter and in my own journey I find great comfort in being under the Roman Pope as it gives me assurance of heart that I am Orthodox.
My Heritage: It is the rite of my ancestors, the Spaniards and the Austrians.
My Journey: It is the rite I was fully Initiated into.
The Liturgy: The Roman liturgy, especially in its restored form we have now, the ancient terseness, sobriety, and classical nobility of the ancient Roman rite is celebrated. Within the Mass of Paul VI I find a great sense of continuity with the liturgies of the very primitive Roman Church and a great deal of “ancient-ness”.
The old Gallican and Eastern inspired additions to the ancient Roman rite during the Middle Ages have been largely removed, allowing for a much more “Roman” Roman rite Liturgy/Mass. I also hold dear the earlier Mass of Blessed John XXIII because it contains the medieval liturgy with all its beautiful and sacred Gallican and Eastern additions (although I prefer the sacred, noble simplicity and “ancient-ness” of the Mass of Paul VI).
The Theology: The Roman rite’s theology is very precise…as a scrupulous person who spent much of his life searching for deep, satisfying answers, the Roman rite’s theology of kataphasis is comforting and affirmative.
The History: The history of the Roman Church is inspiring as it is the history of my ancestors and of (in many ways) the formation of Occidental Apostolic Christianity.
In short, while I love the Eastern Churches and have a relatively well rooted tie with the Melkite Byzantine Catholics, I am still a Roman and I am not ashamed of that.
There is nothing on Earth quite like a properly celebrated Mass of Paul VI, and I rejoice in that.
That is why I desire to be a priest, so that I may celebrate the Mass of Paul VI as it should be celebrated. God’s will be done.
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MrDickerson
Guest
All of what you say applies to the “banal, man-made, on-the-spot production” of the Novus Ordo (Pope Benedict’s words, not mine!), but NOT to the genuine, traditional Roman rite which is what I practice.
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