Why be The Church?

[Paytheon]

I’ve pointed out the truth yet you deny. Just as the Pharisees did when the Messiah arrived. Your position has no standing with me being as your concerns are more about labels and your status. You can keep your beloved position of status and denomination, that is yours to discern. Jesus clearly stated he ‘fulfilled the old scripture’ which included the Old Covenant and 613 laws brought down by Moses which made the Pharisees mad. Perhaps as I have you. The New Covenant is exact what i told you, have the same moral and ethical structure of the past, but love one another as Jesus loves us, and believe! The lineage David, Aaron, Moses, and even the house of Judah becomes important to us all because if you truly believe in Christ you are automatically rewarded with that lineage. Regardless, the New Covenant that promises our spirits and souls will someday be an immortal brand new flesh and bone life in a New Heaven and Earth is what every “Christian” should believe in…regardless of petty status based denominations! That is what Jesus promised!

 

[Paytheon]

You ask a great question but have I not already answered it? I explained to Thom18 that the New Covenant is what Jesus requires of us all. Jesus didn’t say we had to be a Christian, Catholic, Jew, Gentile, whatever. As a matter of fact Jesus is building a multi-culture ethic base religion of all. Jesus told us to love our Neighbors, love our enemies, and believe. It truly is that simple…if you understand the last part, “Believe Christ Jesus”!

 

[Paytheon]

Where did I say “teaching of the Church is absolutely not true or in the bible”? Are you claiming blasphemy of me? Just as Paul found it a reward to be persecuted by the Romans like Jesus, I too feel privilege to be persecuted by you for something I did not say. My 'reliance is on the Lord’s Promise, which is always Truth, which comes to us all through the New Covenant. My answer regarding am I a Catholic? Yes. It’s a great place to gather with many believers, but I have no problem stating the truth to those who say they are Catholics but disregard Jesus’s words.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Nowhere did I accuse you of blasphemy. It’s well known that Catholics do not rely solely on Bible. The Deposit of Faith is transmitted through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, both. Therefore, some teachings are not explicitly in the Bible. Protestants who rely only on Scripture are the ones who generally argue that something must be wrong because it’s not in the Bible.
I’m also not sure how asking you a simple question equates to a “persecution” of you.

 

[Wampa]

It’s up to one to chose to read my replies, just like it’s up to one to chose to follow Jesus Christ.

I’ve pointed out the truth yet you deny. Just as the Pharisees did when the Messiah arrived.

Your position has no standing with me being as your concerns are more about labels and your status.

Are you claiming blasphemy of me?

I have no problem stating the truth to those who say they are Catholics but disregard Jesus’s words.

Wow, this is a lot of adversarial language for someone who just signed up 9 hours ago. A suggestion from a 14-year site veteran: you might want to tone down the accusations and sensitivity. You won’t last long on the site like this.

Make it a dialogue; learn from each other. It seems like you’re here to pound people over the head. That never ends well with the moderators.

 

[fhansen]

What is the point of the church as a institution and not a spiritual connection like in Calvin’s theology. Even if the Catholic Church was the Rock that Christ is building up; and all the other churches are schisms. Why not be a good news spreader across the world without such authorities as the pope?

Better yet: An institutionalized spiritual connection!

A permanently established entity whose whole purpose is to help get people to God and maintain that relationship.

 

[Wampa]

Jesus was adversarial to the Jewish Pharisees when his ministry was only 3 and 1/2 years old. If you deem it necessary for me to be persecute by banning me from this site for believing in Jesus and his Promised New Covenant…make it so. I will speak truth even at the risk of offending those who live a status first life.

I have no such power. This site has a community-based moderation system: users flag infractions and then moderators review them and decide if action is needed. I’m not a moderator and I rarely ever flag anyone (usually only the most obvious trolls and I’m not flagging you). I’m just telling you, based on my long experience here, that you’re going to rack up a lot of flags with this style. If you get banned, it won’t be because of your beliefs, but because of how you express yourself. Just letting you know so you can change course if you value sticking around…

 

[Paytheon]

Thank you again for the warning. I assure you that if my message about Jesus and his New Covenant offends others I’ll be happy to be banned. I will not be bullied by those who chose to be offended based on their status on a message board or religious domination. Christ Jesus lives and I’m happy to let others know.

 

[Thom18]

I’ve pointed out the truth yet you deny. Just as the Pharisees did when the Messiah arrived. Your position has no standing with me being as your concerns are more about labels and your status. You can keep your beloved position of status and denomination, that is yours to discern. Jesus clearly stated he ‘fulfilled the old scripture’ which included the Old Covenant and 613 laws brought down by Moses which made the Pharisees mad. Perhaps as I have you. The New Covenant is exact what i told you, have the same moral and ethical structure of the past, but love one another as Jesus loves us, and believe! The lineage David, Aaron, Moses, and even the house of Judah becomes important to us all because if you truly believe in Christ you are automatically rewarded with that lineage. Regardless, the New Covenant that promises our spirits and souls will someday be an immortal brand new flesh and bone life in a New Heaven and Earth is what every “Christian” should believe in…regardless of petty status based denominations! That is what Jesus promised!

You proved nothing. You accused me of teaching something un-Scriptural and I pointed out:

1. That the Solas you brought up aren’t Catholic teachings, and
2. That what I said isn’t what you claimed (un-Scriptural) at all- that everything I proposed about the Church is found in both the Old and New Testaments. I have even quoted Scripture whereas you have yet to.

 

[Paytheon]

I’m sorry, you misunderstood me then. I didn’t ‘accuse’ you of teaching something not in the scripture. I flat out stated it was ‘not’ in the scripture and pointed out the very reason why. I was brought up a Catholic, still am a Catholic, and will tell you this: love one another as Jesus loves you and believe in Jesus Christ you will be rewarded with the New Covenant…regardless if you’re a Catholic or not.

 

[guanophore]

What is the point of the church as a institution and not a spiritual connection like in Calvin’s theology.

I think many good points can be made for this, but fundamentally, Jesus found it necessary to create a visible, authorative, earathly presence. It is a spiritual reality, but also a temporal one. Jesus did not do anything without good reason, and He did not found a Church just to hear Himself talking. He has a purpose.

Even if the Catholic Church was the Rock that Christ is building up; and all the other churches are schisms.

Jesus only founded One Church. All who are members of Him are members of His One Body, the Church.

Why not be a good news spreader across the world without such authorities as the pope?

Why be the Church?

All who are born from above by water and Spirit are made members of the Church, built into her as living stones. Baptism is an indelible and permanent seal that cannot be removed. One cannot be “unadopted” into Christ. So it is not really a matter of “why be the Church”, but now that you have become a member of the Church, what has God called you to do as a result? Jesus wants us all to be in unity.

Why not be a good news spreader across the world without such authorities as the pope?

I think the answer to this can plainly be seen in the fracturing evident in evangelical communities. Jesus did not want members of His Body to go down the street and open a new congregation anytime they have a fundamental disagreement with the previous one.

The successor of Peter is the visible sign of unity in the Church.

Jesus knew there would be disputes, which is why He established a structure of authority. How can you “take it to the Church” if you can’t find the authority in the Church?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Only two things Jesus asked from any of us:

1. John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
2. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

No place in the bible does Jesus mission state such “inheritance or authority”! I know Thom18 will point at the words in a doctrine but that’s not the scripture! Even Pope Francis would disagree with these words by Thom18: “cannot find this outside of the apostolic Churches, the Catholic and the Orthodox”. That’s false and not in scripture anywhere! The first time the disciples were called Christians first was in Antioch long after Paul started his mission there. There was no “Catholic” church then and Jesus had already promised his New Convent to many (as see when Jesus made a promise to a thief on a cross next to him while he was being crucified).

I am sorry but you are completely incorrect here. Jesus asks a lot more of us than those two things. You have pulled two verses out of the Bible and are choosing to live by them. The whole Bible is the inerrant Word of God, not just those two verses.

Jesus did give Peter authority when He gave him the keys to the kingdom and told him whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.

I, also, would not put words in Pope Francis mouth. That is not fair to him. The priesthood was founded by Christ and it’s succession has continued only through the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

As far as there not being a Catholic Church during the days of the early Christians in Antioch here are the words of a man named Ignatius of Antioch. He lived from 35 AD to 108 AD. He was third after Peter to rule the Church in Antioch.

He said:
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. …Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church… Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8)

“Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9)

Ignatius died a martyrs death for the Church that Christ gifted us with.

God bless.

 

[goout]

You ask a great question but have I not already answered it? I explained to Thom18 that the New Covenant is what Jesus requires of us all. Jesus didn’t say we had to be a Christian, Catholic, Jew, Gentile, whatever. As a matter of fact Jesus is building a multi-culture ethic base religion of all. Jesus told us to love our Neighbors, love our enemies, and believe. It truly is that simple…if you understand the last part, “Believe Christ Jesus”!

Who is Jesus? You reference him a lot there. Who is he exactly?