Why become Catholic?

[Reuben_J]

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And not everyone who says,“I’m a catholic,” will enter Heaven either; or Baptist, or Methodist, or Church of Christ…! I wish sometimes that I could agree with your point of view but there are too many interpretations of scripture to know who’s right! Like, I don’t believe that you have to go to confession with a mortal man! You can go directly to God!(Hebrews 4:16, 1John 1:9). And I couldn’t call the pope holy father

yikes …

 

[Della]

You’re totally wrong. I invite you to understand the meaning of Catholic dogma. Pope Eugene IV authoritatively declared that all those outside the Church will not be saved. This has always been the teaching of the Church.

In his book, ‘The History of Heresies,’ St. Alphonsus talked about the heresy of invincible ignorance e.g. the heretical notion that non-Catholics can be saved…

St. Alphonsus, The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457: “Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted. But what is this remote grace? ** St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius. ** Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.”

You are not disagreeing with me, but with the Church here. I already posted the Church’s position here. If you want to argue with it, then you’ll have to argue with the Church, not me.

To all our non-Catholic brethren, Emily is just plain wrong here–she may believe she is right, but the Church itself refutes her position. If you want to know what the Church teaches, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was written to clarify and teach the doctrines and dogmas of the Church.

To 1beleevr, please don’t just go by what people write on a public forum. People here are allowed to be wrong, even Catholics. If you truly want to know what the Church teaches, and from your perspective and (perhaps more importantly) why, call your local Catholic parish to set up an appointment to talk to a priest. He won’t pressure you into anything or feel like you’re wasting his time if you ask him questions. Helping people understand Church teaching is his business.

We here are only trying to answer questions and be supportive of those seeking answers. And, as a converts myself, I assure you there are answers to all your questions. After all, the Church has been in existence for 2000+ years. It’s seen a wrinkle or two and understands human nature and the Gospel message more deeply than any other religious entity on earth.

 

[Nicea325]

And not everyone who says,“I’m a catholic,” will enter Heaven either; or Baptist, or Methodist, or Church of Christ…! I wish sometimes that I could agree with your point of view but there are too many interpretations of scripture to know who’s right! Like, I don’t believe that you have to go to confession with a mortal man! You can go directly to God!(Hebrews 4:16, 1John 1:9). And I couldn’t call the pope holy father

And your disbelief of confession does not make false either. By the way, Catholics too can go to God,but tell me something,what certitude do you have God has forgiven your sins?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And not everyone who says,“I’m a catholic,” will enter Heaven either; or Baptist, or Methodist, or Church of Christ…! I wish sometimes that I could agree with your point of view but there are too many interpretations of scripture to know who’s right! Like, I don’t believe that you have to go to confession with a mortal man! You can go directly to God!(Hebrews 4:16, 1John 1:9). And I couldn’t call the pope holy father

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven;** if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”**

 

[Della]

And not everyone who says,“I’m a catholic,” will enter Heaven either; or Baptist, or Methodist, or Church of Christ…!

You are right. We cannot rest on our laurels but must take up our cross daily and follow Jesus.

I wish sometimes that I could agree with your point of view but there are too many interpretations of scripture to know who’s right!

The problem isn’t there are so many interpretation–actually there’s really only one that’s right. The problem is you are reading the Bible through the wrong lenses–that of an Evangelical viewpoint that no one believed unto the 18th and 19th centuries. The Bible is more than a few verses shown to you by those who know no better. It is the witness to the Church Christ founded, the one to whom he gave the authority to teach and preach the Gospel, and to decide all matters regarding faith and morals. That’s what you need to see in order to understand the Bible–you need to see it in its proper historical and theological context.

Like, I don’t believe that you have to go to confession with a mortal man! You can go directly to God!(Hebrews 4:16, 1John 1:9).

Hebrews 4:16 and 1 John 1:9 are not addressing the ministerial role in confession. Of course we are forgiven if we are truly repentant. But, Jesus established confession in order to give us his grace to amend our ways and to assure that we are indeed forgiven. Why did he do the latter? Because it is all too easy for us to deceive ourselves, but when we have to tell another human being what we’ve done, the other person (trained to help those who confess) can help us know if we are truly guilty and also tell us how to not sin again in that area of our lives. You know, if people simply went to a confessor and admitted they are sinners in need of forgiveness and help, there’d be far less need for psychologists and counselors. Confession forces us to be honest with ourselves. And when we go to a confessor he is acting in Jesus’ place–his words to us are what Jesus himself would tell us. It’s wonderful to hear another voice say: “You are absolved.” Most come away feeling like the world has been lifted off their shoulders

And I couldn’t call the pope holy father

Because Jesus said to call no man father? Then why did Paul write this?

1 Cor. 4[14] I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

And did Jesus also mean that we aren’t to call anyone “teacher” or our own fathers “father”? No, he didn’t. He was telling us to regard each other as equals, and we do. No priest is better than any layman. But, even among Evangelicals the minister is treated differently from the ordinary person in the pew–he is afford greater respect and honor.

As I wrote above, we need to understand the Bible within the context of the Church whose members wrote the NT and who compiled its books and decided the canon, that kept it safe through the Dark Ages, translated it into the languages of the people long before Luther and who has been teaching it’s truth for 2000+ years.

 

[1beleevr]

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven;** if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”**

Unfortunately, these verses do not compel US to go to confession with a modern day, mortal priest! They simply speak to Jesus sending His disciples out into the world to spread the Gospel! Interesting that until Pentecost, these same disciples were petrified of the Jewish high council, and hid in the upper room until the Holy Spirit fell upon them! Speaking of the Holy Spirit, I am still amazed that the same Spirit that led the children of Israel through the wilderness, is the very same Spirit that lives IN me!

 

[1beleevr]

And your disbelief of confession does not make false either. By the way, Catholics too can go to God,but tell me something,what certitude do you have God has forgiven your sins?

Read 1John 1:9 again,“for if we confess our sins unto Him, He is faithful to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.” Do you know the feeling you get, when you finally confess something to someone; like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders? In this case it would be from your heart!

 

[1beleevr]

You are right. We cannot rest on our laurels but must take up our cross daily and follow Jesus.

The problem isn’t there are so many interpretation–actually there’s really only one that’s right. The problem is you are reading the Bible through the wrong lenses–that of an Evangelical viewpoint that no one believed unto the 18th and 19th centuries. The Bible is more than a few verses shown to you by those who know no better. It is the witness to the Church Christ founded, the one to whom he gave the authority to teach and preach the Gospel, and to decide all matters regarding faith and morals. That’s what you need to see in order to understand the Bible–you need to see it in its proper historical and theological context.

Hebrews 4:16 and 1 John 1:9 are not addressing the ministerial role in confession. Of course we are forgiven if we are truly repentant. But, Jesus established confession in order to give us his grace to amend our ways and to assure that we are indeed forgiven. Why did he do the latter? Because it is all too easy for us to deceive ourselves, but when we have to tell another human being what we’ve done, the other person (trained to help those who confess) can help us know if we are truly guilty and also tell us how to not sin again in that area of our lives. You know, if people simply went to a confessor and admitted they are sinners in need of forgiveness and help, there’d be far less need for psychologists and counselors. Confession forces us to be honest with ourselves. And when we go to a confessor he is acting in Jesus’ place–his words to us are what Jesus himself would tell us. It’s wonderful to hear another voice say: “You are absolved.” Most come away feeling like the world has been lifted off their shoulders

Because Jesus said to call no man father? Then why did Paul write this?

1 Cor. 4[14] I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

And did Jesus also mean that we aren’t to call anyone “teacher” or our own fathers “father”? No, he didn’t. He was telling us to regard each other as equals, and we do. No priest is better than any layman. But, even among Evangelicals the minister is treated differently from the ordinary person in the pew–he is afford greater respect and honor.

As I wrote above, we need to understand the Bible within the context of the Church whose members wrote the NT and who compiled its books and decided the canon, that kept it safe through the Dark Ages, translated it into the languages of the people long before Luther and who has been teaching it’s truth for 2000+ years.

Well of course there is only one interpretation that is correct! And I know that there was not any punctuation in the old days, but I believe that those who publish the Bible, probably deliberately capitalized Father, to indicate that Jesus was speaking of God; whom He addresses in John 17:11. Of course we all have earthly fathers(duh!), but only one Holy Father, who unfortunately for you is not the pope! And as for Hebrews 4:16, and 1John 1:9, no ministerial role is necessary! I believe these verses speak to the privilege and freedom of approaching our Heavenly Father directly, a practice once reserved for priests! Believe it or not, calling the pope holy father, is one of the reasons I would never convert!

 

[Della]

Well of course there is only one interpretation that is correct! And I know that there was not any punctuation in the old days, but I believe that those who publish the Bible, probably deliberately capitalized Father, to indicate that Jesus was speaking of God; whom He addresses in John 17:11. Of course we all have earthly fathers(duh!), but only one Holy Father, who unfortunately for you is not the pope!

But the Church gave us the Bible. You think it doesn’t know what’s in it? If you are using the KJV, you should know it was not the first Bible in English and that originally it contained what you would call the Apocrypha. Capitalizations or no, Jesus never said anything about calling priests father one way or the other. You have been led to believe this by people who take verses out of context in order to come to a conclusion they’ve already made. That is not the right way to interpret Scripture.

And as for Hebrews 4:16, and 1John 1:9, no ministerial role is necessary! I believe these verses speak to the privilege and freedom of approaching our Heavenly Father directly, a practice once reserved for priests! Believe it or not, calling the pope holy father, is one of the reasons I would never convert!

No, they say NOTHING about the ministerial role not that is it not necessary. Paul wasn’t intending to tell us anything about confession he was telling us that God forgives sins. Period. That does not at all negate Jesus’ establishing confession as cited by Chestertonrules. Jesus breathed on the Apostles, not everyone. He commissioned the Apostles, not everyone. If he had intended to do as you say he would have waited until he had everyone gathered just before he ascended into heaven, but he didn’t. He only breathed on the Apostles. Context and the intention of the author is what we need to understand not cherry picking Bible verses to “prove” things we already want to believe.

You, like I was, are attached to the way you think because you experienced Christ within a particular Christian group and so you believe everything they say. That’s understandable. The Spirit goes where he wills and God hears anyone who calls on him, but that does not mean they have the whole of the truth or can’t be wrong. The group you are attached to didn’t even exist before the 18th or 19th century and much of what they deny has been believed by Christians since 33 AD.

I recommend two books to you: Catholicism and Fundamentalism and Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. We could argue and go around and around, but you need more than we can provide here. Both books are easy to read and respectful of non-Catholics. If you really want to know how the Church’s teachings differ from yours and why the Church’s position is the correct one, you have to do some reading on your own. I hope you will. God bless you.

 

[Nicea325]

Read 1John 1:9 again,“for if we confess our sins unto Him, He is faithful to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.” Do you know the feeling you get, when you finally confess something to someone; like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders? In this case it would be from your heart!

Uuhhhhhh…no! I know you are smart fellow,but I am sure you understand one cannot isolate certain passages without taking the entire book/letter into context and against the entire Bible.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Unfortunately, these verses do not compel US to go to confession with a modern day, mortal priest! :

They compel me. I converted to Catholicism.

Jesus said that he was sending the apostles as God sent him.

Jesus chose successors, why wouldn’t the apostles?

 

[1beleevr]

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven;** if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”**

What if these verses meant that if you and I (and the disciples) forgave people of their sins against us, that they are forgiven by God?

 

[1beleevr]

They compel me. I converted to Catholicism.

Jesus said that he was sending the apostles as God sent him.

Jesus chose successors, why wouldn’t the apostles?

Well, God bless you! And even today, we are being sent; those of us who hear His voice and obey! In Isaiah 6:10, isaiah says, “Here am I Lord, send me.” Just like Peter, I believe that we are charged with feeding His “sheep!”

 

[1beleevr]

Uuhhhhhh…no! I know you are smart fellow,but I am sure you understand one cannot isolate certain passages without taking the entire book/letter into context and against the entire Bible.

I do not isolate “certain” verses when I quote scripture, rather use said verses to answer challenges from others! On several occasions, I have asked whether 1John 1:9 is referring to a priest when it says,“if we confess our sins unto Him,” and have gotten no response! Everyone, to some degree, picks and chooses verses to support their argument. Besides, the context from which any single verse is taken, does not always relate to the topic being discussed!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What if these verses meant that if you and I (and the disciples) forgave people of their sins against us, that they are forgiven by God?

That’s not what it says. I believe what it says, not what you are some other fallible interpreter claims that it means.

Nothing personal!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Well, God bless you! And even today, we are being sent; those of us who hear His voice and obey! In Isaiah 6:10, isaiah says, “Here am I Lord, send me.” Just like Peter, I believe that we are charged with feeding His “sheep!”

True, but we don’t all have apostolic authority.

The apostles warned us:

Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us **without our authorization **and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.