"Why believe in someone who is going to send us to Hell?"

[Neoplatonist]

You are drawing conclusions and making assumptions.

Every assertion does. Let’s pin down why you think that’s not warranted in this case.

Do the Bible and the lives of the saints not show that those are possible ways for God to reach/teach people?

How can we say he has done everything possible to reach person x or y if these possibilities have not been explored?

 

[FaithInTheLord]

Every assertion does. Let’s pin down why you think that’s not warranted in this case.

Do the Bible and the lives of the saints not show that those are possible ways for God to reach/teach people?

How can we say he has done everything possible to reach person x or y if these possibilities have not been explored?

You can not comprehend God’s perfect love - so you can not comprehend any of God’s decisions.

Trying to comprehend why God does what He does is like a germ trying to comprehend why you do what you do only literally infinitely more pointless than that.

Go live in seclusion for a couple of years and do nothing but pray and think. Just be careful who you tell what happened when you get back - you could end up in a straight jacket! Of course you won’t do that… I will not lie I my faith is too weak as well.

Is that a requirement for a sign from God? NO.

edit; The Bible does tell us why people are not receiving as many signs in this time. This is an evil and adulterous generation. I just completely oversimplified it but if you need me to get the passage for you just ask.

 

[Neoplatonist]

You can not comprehend God’s perfect love - so you can not comprehend any of God’s decisions.

Trying to comprehend why God does what He does is like a germ trying to comprehend why you do what you do only literally infinitely more pointless than that.

Go live in seclusion for a couple of years and do nothing but pray and think. Just be careful who you tell what happened when you get back - you could end up in a straight jacket! Of course you won’t do that… I will not lie I my faith is too weak as well.

Is that a requirement for a sign from God? NO.

edit; The Bible does tell us why people are not receiving as many signs in this time. This is an evil and adulterous generation. I just completely oversimplified it but if you need me to get the passage for you just ask.

1.The mysterious God argument. In that case, though, the conclusion would be for everyone to stop talking about any of it. The same is true for trying to interpret the Bible - how could a germ possibly get the context and implications of anything I say right?

1. I really couldn’t care less what germs might think of me, nor would I make any effort to teach them or make sacrifices to help them. Your analogy runs into serious conflict with about 90% everything in the Bible and in Catholic tradition.

3.How can you, another germ, possibly make any assertions about what God did/didn’t try, what he does/doesn’t want, or whether he loves us?

4.Why in the world would I spend time hearing lectures every Sunday, contributing my money, or, much less, living in the desert for a few years if my chance of understanding any of it is infinitely small?

1. Every generation has been evil and adulterous. That didn’t stop the existence of signs and wonders before. Sometimes there were miracles BECAUSE it was evil and adulterous.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

1.The mysterious God argument. In that case, though, the conclusion would be for everyone to stop talking about any of it. The same is true for trying to interpret the Bible - how could a germ possibly get the context and implications of anything I say right?

1. I really couldn’t care less what germs might think of me, nor would I make any effort to teach them or make sacrifices to help them. Your analogy runs into serious conflict with about 90% everything in the Bible and in Catholic tradition.

3.How can you, another germ, possibly make any assertions about what God did/didn’t try, what he does/doesn’t want, or whether he loves us?

4.Why in the world would I spend time hearing lectures every Sunday, contributing my money, or, much less, living in the desert for a few years if my chance of understanding any of it is infinitely small?

1. Every generation has been evil and adulterous. That didn’t stop the existence of signs and wonders before. Sometimes there were miracles BECAUSE it was evil and adulterous.

1. The Scripture is for us. That is why we can understand it…this is a simple concept… The conclusion would not be to stop talking about it unless a requirement of talking about it is full and complete understanding - in which case your logic is valid. Otherwise it is obviously invalid.
2. I was referring to the scale of your ability to understand. Not to your love for germs… WOW is all I can say. Anyways we are infinitely smaller than germs on that scale…don’t forget that part it is very critical.
3. I didn’t and in truth I can not with 100% certainty. He loves us because He is the definition of infinite love that is made evident to us germs.
4. Your chance of understanding all of it is NOT infinitely small - it is nearly guaranteed you will not. What is written in prophecy is if you try to understand what God wants you to understand - and you seek Him (truth) with all of your heart and mind - you will find what you are searching for. What you are searching for is what you are meant to understand in this dead world - not necessarily what you will be made to understand in real life (which you have not yet experienced).
   Hearing lectures and contributing money actually has absolutely zero to do with it. Some people are complete introverts and go live in the desert. Some just have a room they can get away from their wife and children in . I for one contribute money sometimes because I believe in the mission of the Church and I hear lectures because they provoke thought - but I do none of this for understanding. Understanding must be obtained in a quiet room. There is scripture on this stuff if you really want I will look it up for you.
5. Refer to the rest of this conversation. You can not come close to knowing the real reason for things. Once again - we have been given a clue about why we are receiving less signs. God still talks to people. You might even know some of them. If they told you would you believe them? Or would you try to have their kids taken away (no you wouldn’t, but you get the point)?

 

[Neoplatonist]

1. The Scripture is for us. That is why we can understand it…this is a simple concept… The conclusion would not be to stop talking about it unless a requirement of talking about it is full and complete understanding - in which case your logic is valid. Otherwise it is obviously invalid.
2. I was referring to the scale of your ability to understand. Not to your love for germs… WOW is all I can say. Anyways we are infinitely smaller than germs on that scale…don’t forget that part it is very critical.
3. I didn’t and in truth I can not with 100% certainty. He loves us because He is the definition of infinite love that is made evident to us germs.
4. Your chance of understanding all of it is NOT infinitely small - it is nearly guaranteed you will not. What is written in prophecy is if you try to understand what God wants you to understand - and you seek Him (truth) with all of your heart and mind - you will find what you are searching for. What you are searching for is what you are meant to understand in this dead world - not necessarily what you will be made to understand in real life (which you have not yet experienced).
   Hearing lectures and contributing money actually has absolutely zero to do with it. Some people are complete introverts and go live in the desert. Some just have a room they can get away from their wife and children in . I for one contribute money sometimes because I believe in the mission of the Church and I hear lectures because they provoke thought - but I do none of this for understanding. Understanding must be obtained in a quiet room. There is scripture on this stuff if you really want I will look it up for you.
5. Refer to the rest of this conversation. You can not come close to knowing the real reason for things. Once again - we have been given a clue about why we are receiving less signs. God still talks to people. You might even know some of them. If they told you would you believe them? Or would you try to have their kids taken away (no you wouldn’t, but you get the point)?

My point was that either you keep the germ analogy or the love analogy. Trying to keep them both up in the air at the same time isn’t working. If you say God loves us, we must have significantly more meaning and standing in relation to him than germs would to us.

If the Bible is so clear, then why have there been wars and factions and even contemporary debates that fill library shelves full of dissertations? As long as the Bible contains elements that refer to an infinite God, which we cannot even begin to wrap our germ brains around, and as long as understanding the whole needs us to understand those parts, then our chance at understanding it even close to correctly is doomed. Germs arguing about what an infinite mind might have meant by this or that metaphor is even more absurd than kindergartners arguing about differential calculus. It’s not that they need a full and complete understanding to talk about it.

I’m surprised to hear you say that going to mass and donating to the support of the Church are not central ingredients. ?

I’m fine with allowing that I can’t know the full and real reason for things, in the same way that I’m fine with not fully understanding differential equations or Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem when I study calculus. If my entire future career depends on my homework score, though, and the teacher is a super-genius who just leaves me more confused when I read over the course notes or ask a question, then I’m going to not be fine. If it is not even a conversation with the professor, and I’m not in his class talking with him and taking my own notes, but am merely trying to learn the material from reading the class notes of one his former students who DID sit in class with him and see him work some amazing mathematical proofs, then it would be even worse.

In such a situation I can certainly allow that it makes sense for me to not understand what the professor was thinking. I cannot, however, buy that the professor will give me a diploma based on my understanding third-hand from an imperfect student AND that he loves me and wants me to succeed. Unless he pulled me into his office hours to talk about the material or the class, or even just showed me how one of the proofs worked as he went through it, we would be totally justified in thinking he had not done everything possible to help me succeed, would we?

 

[FaithInTheLord]

My point was that either you keep the germ analogy or the love analogy. Trying to keep them both up in the air at the same time isn’t working. If you say God loves us, we must have significantly more meaning and standing in relation to him than germs would to us.

If the Bible is so clear, then why have there been wars and factions and even contemporary debates that fill library shelves full of dissertations? As long as the Bible contains elements that refer to an infinite God, which we cannot even begin to wrap our germ brains around, and as long as understanding the whole needs us to understand those parts, then our chance at understanding it even close to correctly is doomed. Germs arguing about what an infinite mind might have meant by this or that metaphor is even more absurd than kindergartners arguing about differential calculus. It’s not that they need a full and complete understanding to talk about it.

I’m surprised to hear you say that going to mass and donating to the support of the Church are not central ingredients. ?

I’m fine with allowing that I can’t know the full and real reason for things, in the same way that I’m fine with not fully understanding differential equations or Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem when I study calculus. If my entire future career depends on my homework score, though, and the teacher is a super-genius who just leaves me more confused when I read over the course notes or ask a question, then I’m going to not be fine. If it is not even a conversation with the professor, and I’m not in his class talking with him and taking my own notes, but am merely trying to learn the material from reading the class notes of one his former students who DID sit in class with him and see him work some amazing mathematical proofs, then it would be even worse.

In such a situation I can certainly allow that it makes sense for me to not understand what the professor was thinking. I cannot, however, buy that the professor will give me a diploma based on my understanding third-hand from an imperfect student AND that he loves me and wants me to succeed. Unless he pulled me into his office hours to talk about the material or the class, or even just showed me how one of the proofs worked as he went through it, we would be totally justified in thinking he had not done everything possible to help me succeed, would we?

I am now questioning your intentions.

What do you mean? His love for us and our ability to understand what He does and why are two completely different things.

When did I say donating and going to mass are unimportant…

I am questioning your intentions. You have said more than one thing now that is causing me to do that.

If you do not have malicious intent - re read everything that we have said to each other. It is worth your time.

I know you didn’t just compare God to your teacher at school. Your teacher at school knows close to nothing - God knows absolutely everything there could ever be to know. I hope this is just a loose analogy. Refer to my germ analogy to see why this thinking is invalid. The difference between a super-genious and you is much different than what you are comparing it to. I hope you can understand the difference between capacity for knowledge and love.

Life can not be compared to school. School is a man-made system that is being geared more and more towards blocking critical thinking and creating conformity to what Satan has planted in our world.

Perfect example - I just got done debating about how the Salem witch trials do not have any significance. The only reason any one would think it would be significant is because their teacher drilled it into their head (like they tried with me). Critical thinking tells us that we used to do all kinds of crazy stuff like “cast the first stone”… I still remember hearing about the stupid witch trials every year.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

Maybe I misunderstood you.

In fact I probably did and you have no malicious intent at all. It just seemed that way because you skimmed through a lot of what I said or just left it out to make invalid points.

Please re read what I have posted.

Going to mass and donating are necessary for honoring the Sabbath and helping the Church continue its mission.

For understanding you must spend a lot of time thinking and reading.

edit: mass is not necessary to honor the sabbath I put that wrong. In most peoples lives it would be. If your intention is to honor the Sabbath by introspective thought and reflection with God and His word then you have (IMO) honored the Sabbath. We know Saints would go into seclusion for extended periods sometimes. There are no Church’s when you are alone.

The germ analogy still stands except the scale is actually infinite. It is just a way of conveying the message of how impossible it is to understand everything about God and what He does and why.

 

[fred_conty]

That is the question my friend is constantly asking me. He refuses to believe in God because he thinks it’s stupid to believe in “someone who will send you to pain and misery forever and ever in Hell, when you die”.

How can I explain that it is God who loves us each individually, a love so deep and divine that we can not even begin to understand, and it’s only because He loves us so as His own creation, that he would reward the good and punish the sinful and disobedient.

I ask him about Heaven. He doesn’t grasp the fact that God does NOT want us in Hell, but rather to be with Him forever in Heaven, and that it is by our own fault that we deserve Hell by not following the teachings of His Church, and by dying in a state of mortal sin.

That only leads to another question. “Why must we live by 10 set rules [which he doesn’t realise are only 10 common-sense, key-to-a-good-society rules, let ALONE the divine commandments given to us by GOD himself] which He supposedly gave to us?”

My friend is so hardened, and has little compassion or hope that something good will happen.

I know that I can not convert my friend, and that it’s only the Holy Spirit who can cause a conversion of Heart, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be used as an instrument. Which is why I’m asking you for help to not only refute my friend’s arguments, but also better explain them so that he will have a better understanding.

Thank you in advance, and God Bless :byzsoc:

Hell is where souls hate God and neighbor.

Here on earth we have prisons to separate the good from the bad, so that society can live in peace. If everyone, evil and virtuous, were allowed together in heaven, would it be heaven?

Hell is not only punishment, but to segregate the evil from the good.

Just a thought.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

Hell is where souls hate God and neighbor.

Here on earth we have prisons to separate the good from the bad, so that society can live in peace. If everyone, evil and virtuous, were allowed together in heaven, would it be heaven?

Hell is not only punishment, but to segregate the evil from the good.

Just a thought.

You can not enter heaven with out being perfect.

Your analogy with prisons is completely invalid. You do not have to be perfect to live in society, nor do you have to be evil to go to prison. Besides all the innocent people in prison - you have to accept the fact that even if they were properly applied our man made laws are still twisted.

Just a thought…

 

[fred_conty]

You can not enter heaven with out being perfect.

Your analogy with prisons is completely invalid. You do not have to be perfect to live in society, nor do you have to be evil to go to prison. Besides all the innocent people in prison - you have to accept the fact that even if they were properly applied our man made laws are still twisted.

Just a thought…

Every analogy is flawed. I’m making one point, and it isn’t that our justice system is perfect.

But thanks for your thought.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

Every analogy is flawed. I’m making one point, and it isn’t that our justice system is perfect.

But thanks for your thought.

Well not every one is flawed.

Our Lord gave us some flawless parables.

I do see your point - I just like clarity. I am guilty of not being clear myself…I do it all the time every day haha.

 

[LoyalViews]

JRKH, and everyone, thank you for the help and I hope to have time to comment on them tomorrow, so please keep the replies coming.

Can I ask a question? Please keep this thread on topic and not about causing arguments. There are threads to debate and if you can’t find one, make one. However, this one is not. So I kindly ask you, to please refrain from arguing and continue to help each other.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Can someone help me to see why it is “good” that we are perfectly free to choose the express route straight to Hell for all eternity, but are not similarly free to choose Heaven?