Why bother to pray? God's Will Paradox

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C. S. Lewis said that God’s knowledge of the future did not violate our free wills because of His timelessness. If God is ever present then it could be fairly said that God is watching us right now and yet we do not feel, at least I don’t, compelled to do anything which I do not want to do. I am posting here because I want to sitting in my living room listening to my children play etc. because I want to. I do not notice, though that does not necessarily mean that there is not, a great controlling factor and since I think sense perception is at least reliable enough I don’t believe that there is a great overarching force controlling my every thought word and deed.

So if we can assert that there is not right now a guiding force upon us then can we also make the same assertion about, say, tomorrow? Lewis says yes. Since God is timeless, in a sense, He is already watching our tomorrow and all tomorrows that will come and in the same fashion that we are not being directly controlled right now by His watchful care then surely the fact that He is also watching us tomorrow will be the same.

I’m not sure Lewis is right…

To be continued…
 
I think that maybe the answer to free will/ God’s will is that the universe is somewhat self- deterministic. I think that as with physical relationships where one thing causes another, causes another leading to even further secondary effects down the line in what appear to be random happenstance. However, if one could correctly ascertain all of the contributing factors to any cause/ effect relationship then there would be no sudden surprises to deal with rather very predictable events one following another in an unguided and yet predictable series.

So in the same way, I think, we are self-deterministic. We are not sudden unpredictable happenstance and neither is our reaction to anything. One man may react to one situation in one fashion and another the same situation differently, what’s the difference? Experience, age, conditions, world views, attitude, natural bent, any number of things which would seemingly make our reactions to the world around completely unpredictable if we had free will. But what if there was one who knew all of the contingent factors which add up to our reactions in any and every given circumstance.

Jer.; “The heart above all things is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?”

The answer of course is God.

God know everything about us. He knows all of our inner motives, memories, dark secrets we think no one sees or guesses, everything. God knows us more completely than we could ever hope to know ourselves much less each other. As such, when I am faced with a decision, God knows my entire history and everything about me and He also knows all the factors in a decision and whether or not, based upon previously mentioned factors, the influences others may place upon me as well a complete knowledge of the situation itself. If that is true, then no matter whether I choose right, left, up down, pink or blue, my decision will not only not be surprising but actually down right predictable, and with a perfect knowledge, perfectly predictable.

If that is true, then God need not guide my every step to know where I am going, rather He need only know me to know where I am going. After all, if I am where I am now and did not make any decisions other than the ones I’ve made to get where I am, could it really be said that my arrival here was unpredictable?

Just something to think about.
 
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God is immutable, and thus, cannot change. To request something from God essentially seeks a change in his knowledge or will. Prayer, therefore, is properly directed toward adoration and homage of God only. At least, that’s why I pray - to adore God.
 
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God is immutable, and thus, cannot change. To request something from God essentially seeks a change in his knowledge or will. Prayer, therefore, is properly directed toward adoration and homage of God only. At least, that’s why I pray - to adore God.<<<<<<<<
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But… Don’t we “change” God to grant us mercy when we pray to ask for forgiveness ?😉
 
jdnrite01 said:
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God is immutable, and thus, cannot change. To request something from God essentially seeks a change in his knowledge or will. Prayer, therefore, is properly directed toward adoration and homage of God only. At least, that’s why I pray - to adore God.
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Sounds good, in a way, but what if God is immutable in His decision to allow His creation to play a part in their destinies? To see if they will humble themselves enough to ask? -to let them decide if they really do believe in His power and love? Isn’t that what occurred when the centurion asked Jesus to heal his son?
 
The God who gave you free will will not violate it to save you- St, Augustine.
 
**God desires a personal relationship with each one of us.
There is no reason to believe that we should not pray to God because true prayer is a sacred conversation with God.
We can talk things over with Him.
We can bring our greatest burdens to Him.
We can cry with Him.
We can laugh and be happy with Him.
And we know, above all, that He loves us.

And THAT is why we bother to pray.**
 
Peary,
I am happy with your reply.I think it makes sense.thank you so much.
 
bogeydogg said:
Just something to think about.
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Just some thoughts:
We are given autonomy-not the perfect autonomy which God possesses but conceivably the most radical autonomy possible for God to give to creation. Our freedom, the ability to decide what to do or not do, consists in having the choice of whether or not to obey God. This is truly a radical freedom. We are free to do whatever we want as long as it is not wrong-this is the one limitation that Adam & Eve did not accept-they wanted no limitations-they wanted to be God.
 
bogeydogg said:
So in the same way, I think, we are self-deterministic. We are not sudden unpredictable happenstance and neither is our reaction to anything. One man may react to one situation in one fashion and another the same situation differently, what’s the difference? Experience, age, conditions, world views, attitude, natural bent, any number of things which would seemingly make our reactions to the world around completely unpredictable if we had free will. But what if there was one who knew all of the contingent factors which add up to our reactions in any and every given circumstance.
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I think that you are unwittingly leaving out the very thing you are talking about: free will.
Experience, age ,conditions, world views, attitude, etc. are NOT free will. These things effect a person’s choice, but they do not MAKE a person’s choice. If you add every single affecting factor in a given situation all together you do not come up with a CHOICE. The choice is made by a person’s free will. Is our free will limited? Yes. Our will can only choose between motives.
(See note at bottom.) But nevertheless it CHOOSES.

Thus, free will is a rather mysterious thing. What is this thing that has the power to choose between two motives? Indeed, even when faced with an extremely strong motive, and on the other hand an extremely weak one, a person (via their free will) is able to choose the weak motive, no matter how weak it may be.

NOTE:
Indeed, St. Augustine professed that the human free will can only choose what is good. Therefore, when we sin in a given situation, we are simply choosing what is less good. This is a compelling philosophy, but not necessary to my point.
 
bluemug said:
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God is immutable, and thus, cannot change. To request something from God essentially seeks a change in his knowledge or will. Prayer, therefore, is properly directed toward adoration and homage of God only. At least, that’s why I pray - to adore God.<<<<<<<<
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Let’s say I decide that I am going to give you a cookie if you ask for it, and on the other hand if you don’t ask for it, I’m NOT going to give you a cookie.
If you ask me for the cookie and I give it you, and you know that I wouldn’t have otherwise, have you changed my mind? Have I changed in some way?
Of course not.
I have not changed. Rather, you have acted (you have chosen to do something).
The same is with God. God desires to give us graces and many other gifts, but also desires that we ASK for them before he gives them to us.

The same applies to your example about God granting us forgiveness. In this case, one would simply conclude that God wills to grant us forgiveness, but only if we REPENT and ASK him for it.

Thus, in prayers of petition, it is we who need to change, we who need to act, not God. Then, once we do this, God will act and grant us what we ask for.
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Abbadon said:
Your “I don’t believe His will would’ve been done”.

Are you saying if you hadn’t prayed god’s could not do something. God is Omnipotent he can do anything and his will is always so.

it’s in the our father

“Thy will be done on heaven as it is on earth”

You as a human cannot undermine gods will…

But then comes in free will, for something like smoking apherently god won’t help you because that is a “free will” based decision.

All these different factors and statements make the situation extremely confusing.
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In this case, the issue is brought up of the two parts, so to speak, of God’s Will: God’s Ordaining Will, and God’s Permitting Will.
  1. God ordains for us to do His Will.
  2. He also wills to that we have our own free will, and so wills to permit us to either do his Will or not.
Therefore, if God’s will is for you to pray to Him, but you choose not to, two distinct (and yet unified) parts of His Will can be distinguished.
  1. God wills for you to choose freely to pray to Him.
You are only free to do this if you do not have to.
  1. So thus: God also wills for you to be able to choose not to pray to Him if you wish.
Thus, when the person made his statement that if he hadn’t prayed, God’s Will wouldn’t have been done, the correct rephrasing of that would be that God’s Ordaining Will would not have been done. His Permitting Will would still have been done.

(In fact, God’s Permitting Will is always done. When His Ordaining Will is done, God’s Permitting Will is still done.)
 
elwoodpd said:
I think that you are unwittingly leaving out the very thing you are talking about: free will.
Experience, age ,conditions, world views, attitude, etc. are NOT free will. These things effect a person’s choice, but they do not MAKE a person’s choice. If you add every single affecting factor in a given situation all together you do not come up with a CHOICE. The choice is made by a person’s free will. Is our free will limited? Yes. Our will can only choose between motives.
(See note at bottom.) But nevertheless it CHOOSES.

Thus, free will is a rather mysterious thing. What is this thing that has the power to choose between two motives? Indeed, even when faced with an extremely strong motive, and on the other hand an extremely weak one, a person (via their free will) is able to choose the weak motive, no matter how weak it may be.

NOTE:
Indeed, St. Augustine professed that the human free will can only choose what is good. Therefore, when we sin in a given situation, we are simply choosing what is less good. This is a compelling philosophy, but not necessary to my point.
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I think it is necessary to point out that while St. Augustine did say that people will choose what is good he did not mean that people will choose what is heavenly, only that they will choose what seems best to them or rather, we do what we do because we want to.

If that is the case then we should be very sober in looking at the contingent factors which play into what we want and how we perceive what is good or not good. Remember, St. Augustine was gravely concerned about the Fall and it’s effect on us as free will creatures. Of course we have free will, but we do not have free will as God has free will because we no longer possess a sinless nature. If you will read through Romans 1 you will see that St. Paul very meticulously lays out the effect of sin on humanity and finally says that our hearts, minds and natures become darkened in our sining. That is, we lack the ability to make decisions unimpeded by the effect of the Fall and original sin as well as the sins we commit in our own flesh.

It is because of this that while we may choose to turn left or right freely in our own will according to our own desires, we do not however make those choices apart from the influence of sin. Therefore, while our will is free we ourselves are not, and thus we struggle to be renewed and conformed in our new birth through our baptism and the grace of our God but at the same time we still live in this present evil age and therefore do not make any decision without a huge number of contingent factors weighing in on us as we make decisions.

This is the paradox of free will. We are free in one sense and yet slaves in another, and we will never truly be free until we are in the presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is for this reason that I say that our experience, world view, da da da da effect every decision that we make and therefore we may freely choose what we think best but our decision making ability is not free and therefore is utterly predictable to one who has perfect knowledge of us… God.
 
I think an important point to consider in this topic is that if God is 100% responsible for a person’s salvation then He is 100% responsible for their damnation-which is Calvin’s double predestination. If God alone, without me, is responsible for my righteousness then He is also responsible for my sin.
 
Let’s say I decide that I am going to give you a cookie if you ask for it, and on the other hand if you don’t ask for it, I’m NOT going to give you a cookie.
If you ask me for the cookie and I give it you, and you know that I wouldn’t have otherwise, have you changed my mind? Have I changed in some way?
Of course not.
I have not changed. Rather, you have acted (you have chosen to do something).
The same is with God. God desires to give us graces and many other gifts, but also desires that we ASK for them before he gives them to us.
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The same applies to your example about God granting us forgiveness. In this case, one would simply conclude that God wills to grant us forgiveness, but only if we REPENT and ASK him for it.
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Thus, in prayers of petition, it is we who need to change, we who need to act, not God. Then, once we do this, God will act and grant us what we ask for.
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We’re almost on the same wavelength, though you have to consider God’s omniscience Why bother to ask for something in view of his foreknowledge? He knew before you were born what you would ask. It makes the entire matter futile, and I don’t think that God is given to useless tasks.

I have to repeat my belief that prayer is properly directed toward adoration of God.
 
jdnrite01 said:
We’re almost on the same wavelength, though you have to consider God’s omniscience Why bother to ask for something in view of his foreknowledge? He knew before you were born what you would ask. It makes the entire matter futile, and I don’t think that God is given to useless tasks.

I have to repeat my belief that prayer is properly directed toward adoration of God.
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OK, but then what does “Ask and you shall receive” mean? Or, “You don’t receive because you don’t ask”? I think we’re second-guessing if we refuse to ask because we think God already knows. The NT says the Holy Spirit knows what we need before we ask but it also tells us to ask. Asking is our part-its our humility before God. If you’ve been in those situations where you’ve come to the end of a rope and know you’re totally helpless to solve a problem then calling out to God is the only thing left you can do and I find that that is often the time He answers. And Jesus says He’ll respond because that’s the heart of a true Father.
All’s I know is that if we ask for more love, faith, patience, understanding of the faith, etc.- but not limited to those things-He will deliver and if we don’t ask, we don’t grow. That’s my take on it anyway.
 
Ooh, I love this conversation when I can have it. Haven’t read the entire thread, but I can try and offer what I have on it.

Why did God have Moses stick his staff into the Red Sea?

To test to see if he had faith and so he would. Though God knew Moses would, He still waited until Moses did. It is the same with prayer. With faith, we shall pray. Otherwise, we would already have whatever we would ask for. And if we already had everything we need, why would we need faith?

That’s the shortened response of what I have to give. Don’t know if that contributes anything.
 
Possibility:

The paradox is only an apparent one, not a real one. Here’s why. It is God’s will that you will pray to effect some metaphysical change.

Let’s say there has been a drought. So you pray for rain. You pray really well and rain comes. What has happened?

This: God wanted the rain, but He also wanted you, and your prayer, to be the mediating instruments by which the rain came. This does two things: (a) it brings the rain; and (b) it develops you spiritually.

Said simply: for true prayer, it is not just you who prays; it is God acting or praying through you.

This shows why it is important that the prayer be properly motivated; otherwise it is not coming from God, but only from you. That would also help explain why some prayers do not seem to be answered.

ficino
 
Prayer for me, is my connection with God. It is me accepting His will and His love for me. It is MY desire to be in contact with Him. He has given us free will, therefore it is our choice whether or not we let Him into our lives. Spiritual Life without prayer is not possible. Yes we ask of Him. By asking, we acknowledge His divinity, His superiority. IF we do not acknowledge Him, why should He acknowledge Us? When you are walking in a Mall, or anywhere, if you do not acknowledge people, most times they will not acknowledge you other than a passing glance. God became human, and thus, as our creator, also uses and desires human communication. I hope this will help some understand why we pray. I am not a scholar, but have spent much time in prayer. It has changed my life…👍
 
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