why bother

[brierpatch1974]

There comes a time when I ask why should I bother talking with certain people because its like talking to a wall. I was discussing why homosexuals is wrong in the eyes of God with a person. And while I don’t know all the verses in the bible I know I was getting no where when they said… “those are words from Paul and others, nowhere does Christ condemn gays himself but he does say to love everyone”

It would seem this person uses the King James version and only reads and believes what’s in red ink. Then I was told I should be in jail for hate crimes. Since when was it a crime to disagree?

It really bothers me when people pretend to want equal rights when in fact they want everyone else to believe what they do or be prosecuted for disagreeing with them. They accuse us of hate crimes when in fact they are committing more of a hate crime than anyone else.

Sorry for this rant but this really bothers me. These people do not want equal rights, they want to control what we believe, how we think and live. It seems we no longer have a right to freedom of religion.

Why is it wrong if my beliefs offend someone but its is perfectly ok for their beliefs to offend me or someone else? Do they not see we can make the same arguments against them as they do us? Are they that stupid?

BP

 

[packermann]

I can empathize with how you feel.

I noticed that you are still seeking for the right church for you.

But I want to point out that this problem is more frustrating from a Protestant’s sola scriptura position. Your arguments seem to have assumed sola scriptura - your argument is based on scripture verses alone. You friend narrowed it down from sola scripture to sola sayings of Jesus. Both are presupposition that are not supported by the Bible. True, there are no scripture verses that say that we should only look at the the sayings of Jesus. But neither is there a scripture that we should only look to scripture. So both of you are arguing based on unfounded presuppositions.

But take a look at the Catholic position. According to Catholic teaching, Christ founded His Church and promised His Church the Holy Spirit who will guide His Church into all truth. Once this premise is aggreed upon, the rest is easy. The Church has declared that homosexuality is a grave disorder. Not only that, but the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, canonized the whole Bible as the Word of God. So the Church has declared that the writings of Paul are just as much the Word of God as are the sayings of Jesus. So it enough that Paul condemned homosexuality.

Not only that, but I think that the Protestant’s view of “justification by faith alone” also contributes to not taking sin seriously today. According to this view, if all that matters for my salvation is faith. My lifetsyle really does not matter. Also, Protestants tend to not see the difference between a mortal sin and a venial sin. To Protestant, all sin is venial as long as one believes. So they do not see what the big fuss is.

This is not the case with Catholicism. It matters not only what you believe but what you do, or don’t do. Homosexuality is a mortal sin, it is not on the same level as getting angry or using a cuss word. It is serious stuff to commit a mortal sin. If more people grasp how serious mortal sin is, they would understand that your warning them of their mortal sin is because you desire them not to spend eternity in Hell. They would see your speaking out as being an act of love.

Official Catholic Christendom existed for 1,000 years by itself (at least in the West) from 500 Ad to 1500 AD. Throughout this time, homosexuality was consirdered depraved, divorce was rare, fornication was not tolerated, and abortion was unheard of. In half that time, the last 500 years, with the Protestant culture in America, we are about to have gay marriages, half of the marriages end in divorce, most teenagers have sex, and 1 in 4 pregancies end in an abortion. Doesn’t this show that justification by faith alone without any eternal consequences for sin, and each person finding his own truth in the Bible has left us with this mess?

 

[iaskquestions]

“those are words from Paul and others, nowhere does Christ condemn gays himself but he does say to love everyone”

Did Jesus not say to his apostles, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16) ?

Christ indeed wanted to say a lot more than what he said, but the disciples would have not been able to bear it in one go. Look what he says,

“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the **Spirit of truth **comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” (John 16:12-13)

So how can that person say that Paul’s words are not Christ’s words???

Another thing, Paul does not condemn homosexuals but he condems homosexuality. It is the **act **that we condemn, not the person. We hate the act, not the person.

Did Christ not hate adultery? He condemned it. But did he not show mercy to the woman caught in adultery? He did. He condemned and hated the act, not the person.

They accuse us of hate crimes when in fact they are committing more of a hate crime than anyone else.

We do not hate anybody, but we hate their evil actions. We love our enemies, as Christ commanded us, but we don’t love the evil that they do, we hate the evil that they do.

“**save **some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” (Jude 1:23)

 

[tobbias88]

You don’t have to be a Catholic or even a Christian to know these things are wrong…against the natural order of things.

It a species practices abortion/infanticide it will soon become extinct; similarly with homosexuality if a species does so, it will soon become extinct. If western man continues on this path then he too will disappear. Many think this mightn’t be such a bad thing. What is the point of preserving rotten fruit?

However Jesus never gives up on any one. So if you are a true Christian, neither should you. Our own efforts might seem futile but with prayer & humility all things are possible. I believe Mother Teresa spent months(years?) before those Indian villagers would have anything to do with her. Yet she persevered.

Have a beer, relax…tomorrow is another day. The sun will rise without our efforts. Thank God for a new day, then have another go.

 

[Newbie2]

This situation isn’t limited to the homosexuality issue…there are those who, whatever you say, will tag you as a racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, etc. etc. whatever, rather than making the effort to disagree with you in a rational, civilized manner.

They’ve always been there and aren’t going away. Make your best argument, then move on.

 

[JonNC]

This situation isn’t limited to the homosexuality issue…there are those who, whatever you say, will tag you as a racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, etc. etc. whatever, rather than making the effort to disagree with you in a rational, civilized manner.

They’ve always been there and aren’t going away. Make your best argument, then move on.

Add “global warming” to your list.

Jon

 

[mdcpensive1]

There comes a time when I ask why should I bother talking with certain people because its like talking to a wall. I was discussing why homosexuals is wrong in the eyes of God with a person. And while I don’t know all the verses in the bible I know I was getting no where when they said… “those are words from Paul and others, nowhere does Christ condemn gays himself but he does say to love everyone”

It would seem this person uses the King James version and only reads and believes what’s in red ink. Then I was told I should be in jail for hate crimes. Since when was it a crime to disagree?

On one had the person you are talking to is correct that we always must try to love everyone as commanded by Jesus. However, the distintion is that we cannot allow that which is immoral to be put into law or be forced on us.

That being said, and picking up on the items in your thread, it worries me about this upcoming presidential election. I am not just talking about an abortion issue, but about the next president putting people on the supreme court and appointing federal judges.

I have come to see that in the “far liberal” world, the cry is to bring justice to all (which in itself is worthy). They take this issue and in my opinion and misuse it for their own purposes. For example, they would say in “fairness”, any organization that did not readily accept homosexuality is not a fair organization and does not deserve a charitable tax status. Also, they say, and they have already tried this, that since positions (ie priesthood) is not open to all genders or homosexuals, it can be seen as an illegal organization and the leaders prosecuted and fined (as if the priesthood is a job and not a sacrament).

I worry that beliefs of our faith may be given criminal or tort status so believers may be fined or jailed. It is entirely possible as we progress towards a more secular society. Evangelization for the Church could be seen as an discriminitory act and be punishable by the state.

I pray that this will never be so, but for good people to do nothing is what allows evil to come.

mdcpensive1

 

[KingAlfred]

There comes a time when I ask why should I bother talking with certain people because its like talking to a wall. I was discussing why homosexuals is wrong in the eyes of God with a person. And while I don’t know all the verses in the bible I know I was getting no where when they said… “those are words from Paul and others, nowhere does Christ condemn gays himself but he does say to love everyone”

It would seem this person uses the King James version and only reads and believes what’s in red ink. Then I was told I should be in jail for hate crimes. Since when was it a crime to disagree?

It really bothers me when people pretend to want equal rights when in fact they want everyone else to believe what they do or be prosecuted for disagreeing with them. They accuse us of hate crimes when in fact they are committing more of a hate crime than anyone else.

Sorry for this rant but this really bothers me. These people do not want equal rights, they want to control what we believe, how we think and live. It seems we no longer have a right to freedom of religion.

Why is it wrong if my beliefs offend someone but its is perfectly ok for their beliefs to offend me or someone else? Do they not see we can make the same arguments against them as they do us? Are they that stupid?

BP

Let’s start at the beginning:

1. Do you hate homosexuals?
2. Do you know the official Church position on homosexuality?
3. Do you somehow communicate a violent attitude toward them when discussing the issue?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Quote from post #2 “Not only that, but the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, canonized the whole Bible as the Word of God.” end quote.

Can you PLEASE (I am hoping and praying that you can) tell me where you got this information. I am finding that I am arguing with people who do not think that everything in the Bible is accurate…though they claim to be Catholic. This information would help me a great deal.

Thank you. And may Christ Jesus bless you with His Wisdom.

Cherie

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

On one had the person you are talking to is correct that we always must try to love everyone as commanded by Jesus. However, the distintion is that we cannot allow that which is immoral to be put into law or be forced on us.

That being said, and picking up on the items in your thread, it worries me about this upcoming presidential election. I am not just talking about an abortion issue, but about the next president putting people on the supreme court and appointing federal judges.

I have come to see that in the “far liberal” world, the cry is to bring justice to all (which in itself is worthy). They take this issue and in my opinion and misuse it for their own purposes. For example, they would say in “fairness”, any organization that did not readily accept homosexuality is not a fair organization and does not deserve a charitable tax status. Also, they say, and they have already tried this, that since positions (ie priesthood) is not open to all genders or homosexuals, it can be seen as an illegal organization and the leaders prosecuted and fined (as if the priesthood is a job and not a sacrament).

I worry that beliefs of our faith may be given criminal or tort status so believers may be fined or jailed. It is entirely possible as we progress towards a more secular society. Evangelization for the Church could be seen as an discriminitory act and be punishable by the state.

I pray that this will never be so, but for good people to do nothing is what allows evil to come.

mdcpensive1

Would this not be an apostasy or great tribulation. I fear that this is what is indeed coming. It is already being done to a smaller extent…cause they can’t start real big…in socialist countries. There will be no laws with separation of Church and State. They will call anything that they don’t like “hate speech, or discrimination”, and it will become illegal. So with the Muslims. They will claim that Christianity is offensive to them, and society will cater so much to them because of their “minority”, that Christianity will become illegal. In a universal government, in a one world religion. The Blessed Mother is talking. I hope I start listening. Please pray.

God bless you all,
Cherie

 

[thomfra]

…they want to control what we believe, how we think and live. It seems we no longer have a right to freedom of religion

Exactly how do homosexuals threaten what you believe or your right to believe it?

You mention being accused of hate crimes. What exactly have you done/said?

 

[tobinatorstark]

sounds a lot like my aunt and uncle

 

[RobHom]

Quote from post #2 “Not only that, but the Church, led by the Holy Spirit, canonized the whole Bible as the Word of God.” end quote.

Can you PLEASE (I am hoping and praying that you can) tell me where you got this information. I am finding that I am arguing with people who do not think that everything in the Bible is accurate…though they claim to be Catholic. This information would help me a great deal.

Thank you. And may Christ Jesus bless you with His Wisdom.

Cherie

Cherie… An answer to the Canon of the Bible by the Catholic Church is found here: catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm which is a subpage of this site: catholicapologetics.org/aptoc.htm#ap030700

As to “accuracy of everything” in the Bible… even I, as a Catholic have doubts…not about what is contained in the Douay-Rheims, but in many of the other “versions” of the Bible that have been printed. Some that are “non-Catholic” are not complete, and some are just changed by the particular denomination to fit its agenda or needs.

Don’t sweat the small stuff…some people make statements they don’t even understand…

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Exactly how do homosexuals threaten what you believe or your right to believe it?

You mention being accused of hate crimes. What exactly have you done/said?

That’s easy to answer. They are trying to change the laws and redefine the family unit Father (male) married to Mother (female) and children. And they are trying, by using the Courts, to force this on the rest of us. There was a vote in California…saying that marriage should be one man married to one woman. They disregarded the people’s vote…the democratic way…and went to the court system which had people who want the same things they want…and irregardless of the illegality of it, they passed as a law that homosexuals could marry. And that the people had to respect their union. Which means that, if you own a private B&B, and two men want to spend their honeymoon at your B&B, you have to allow it…or face hate crime charges and discrimination charges.

So, when you ask what they have done to me, I answer…this is what they have done to me.
Do I mean each and every person who practices homosexuality as though it is the norm? If they are trying to force me to accept what they do as all right, then yes.
I say the same things about heterosexuals living or cohabitating with each other.
I say the same things about those who perform abortions or get abortions or support abortions.

It is imperative we elect those who will read the Constitution of the United States of America correctly. Those who read it and change the meaning of the words to suit themselves have no business on the Supreme Court. They are serving a select group, not interpreting correctly the Constitution as it is written. And I say that to both Conservative Republicans and Liberal Democrats. It’s just that one of those is more likely to change the culture of America in a very immoral way.

May the Holy Trinity, in all of His Wisdom, guide you.
Cherie

 

[COPLAND_3]

It would seem this person uses the King James version and only reads and believes what’s in red ink.

I find it useful as a Catholic that you can point out that Jesus gave special authority to the Apostles, especially St. Peter (Matt. 16:18), so if one is to use only what Jesus said or quoted by the Gospel writers as saying, then they need to take in consideration He gave the Apostles the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to bind and loose. He told them that ‘those who hear them (Apostles) hear Him.’ In other words Jesus intends on us to be guided as Christians to abide by the teaches of His shepherds, which is and always has been the teaching office of the Church. Because we know what Jesus said, but sometimes it takes authority beyond our opinions to understand what He meant.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Well said Jesus N Cherie, you brought up very important points.

mdcpensive1