Why can Catholics call Mary the 'Mother of God' but not say that 'God died on the cross'

[tgGodsway]

Thanks for the questions. Jesus shares one nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.
Jesus exercised one will, his Fathers. “I only do what my Father tells Me…”
Jesus is only Jesus. He cannot be two people at the same time.

When He died on the cross his human body died as a sacrifice. The nature he shares with the Father and Spirit cannot die (using human terms.) The eternal Son is exactly that, Eternal. He has no beginning and no end, as the Son. Rev. 22:13

As far as the Magistrates go, I stand on my last post. Any papal degree or counsel that would contradict the Apostolic Church in doctrine is in error. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that foundation. The building itself must be build on it’s settled and firm doctrines given once to the saints. Jude 1:3

 

[tgGodsway]

Okay… I just read JOE5859 and now responding.

I do believe in the development of doctrine such as the Trinity doctrine. If the content of the Papal Decrees have it’s roots in the Apostolic Church, I will gladly except them.

But most of what has been decreed are huge extra-biblical revelations having no root in the Apostolic Church. for example. The decree saying Mary was sinless, a decree that came centuries after her life.

It is true that the Mary they talk about is found in the bible, but the concept of her being sinless as some kind of special grace, flies right in the face of biblical doctrine. Mary herself called out to God her SAVIOR!!! Joseph and Mary,attended the Passover and offered a “SIN OFFERING” for their family. All of these biblical trues are overturned and cancelled out by a papal decree in Rome, by people who were NOT eye-witnesses to Christianity.

I’ve got to go now. blessings.

 

[porthos11]

Thanks for the questions. Jesus shares one nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.
Jesus exercised one will, his Fathers. “I only do what my Father tells Me…”

Errr. Danger. Monothelitism. The orthodox position is that Jesus had two wills. Monothelitism was condemned at Constantinople III.

Jesus is only Jesus. He cannot be two people at the same time.

This is a key point. Jesus is one Person.

When He died on the cross his human body died as a sacrifice. The nature he shares with the Father and Spirit cannot die (using human terms.) The eternal Son is exactly that, Eternal. He has no beginning and no end, as the Son. Rev. 22:13

As far as the Magistrates go, I stand on my last post. Any papal degree or counsel that would contradict the Apostolic Church in doctrine is in error. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that foundation. The building itself must be build on it’s settled and firm doctrines given once to the saints. Jude 1:3

Natures don’t die. Persons do. And as stated, Jesus is one Person, and that person is Divine (“Jesus is a human person” is a heretical statement.)

“God died” is the orthodox faith of the Church because the Second Person of the Trinity died. He died as a man, yes, since as God, he cannot suffer nor die. But since there is only one Person, and that person is divine, “God died” is held as correct. Otherwise, you risk the heresy of Nestorianism.

 

[Wesrock]

Thanks for the questions. Jesus shares one nature with the Father and Holy Spirit.
Jesus exercised one will, his Fathers. “I only do what my Father tells Me…”
Jesus is only Jesus. He cannot be two people at the same time.

When He died on the cross his human body died as a sacrifice. The nature he shares with the Father and Spirit cannot die (using human terms.) The eternal Son is exactly that, Eternal. He has no beginning and no end, as the Son. Rev. 22:13

You didn’t specifically answer how many natures Jesus has. You mentioned he shares a nature with the father, but then says his human body died as a sacrifice. Should I assume you believe that Jesus Christ had a human nature and a divine nature (two natures)?

Jesus had two wills. There was the divine will and there is the human will. The human will was not dominated or absorbed by the divine will, but it was fully obedient to it, as demonstrated by Jesus’ agony on the Mount of Olives and in his prayers to the Father.

Jesus is one person. Being one person, who is God, and who died, we can say that God died. Saying that God died because Jesus died does not mean that God was changed or destroyed. What your logic is doing is ultimately splitting Jesus up not just into two natures but into two persons. What happens to Jesus as a person happens to God because Jesus is God, maybe according to different natures, but they happen to one person. If Jesus died but God did not die, then Jesus is either not God or he is two persons.

As far as the Magistrates go, I stand on my last post. Any papal degree or counsel that would contradict the Apostolic Church in doctrine is in error. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that foundation. The building itself must be build on it’s settled and firm doctrines given once to the saints. Jude 1:3

Magisterium, not magistrates. No ex cathedra papal decree or ecumenical council is capable of making a false decree in matters of faith and morals. The Magisterium has not contradicted any aspect of the deposit of faith.

 

[tgGodsway]

Grannymh that is brilliant. Eternal ceases to be eternal if it dies.the Son is always alive even if his human nature dies. Jesus cried out in his humanness, My God My God why have you forsaken Me?

 

[Wesrock]

Jesus cried out in his humanness, My God My God why have you forsaken Me?

He was also quoting the opening line to Psalm 22 while suffocating and having his lungs fill up with fluid, so I understand if he didn’t finish, but if we follow to its completion we see that (1) it’s a prophecy of Christ’s crucifixion and (2) it glorifies God as man’s savior and deliverer.

I mean, really, what are you proposing here? That Jesus was no longer God when he shouted these words?

 

[James248]

It is true that the Mary they talk about is found in the bible, but the concept of her being sinless as some kind of special grace, flies right in the face of biblical doctrine. Mary herself called out to God her SAVIOR!!! Joseph and Mary,attended the Passover and offered a “SIN OFFERING” for their family. All of these biblical trues are overturned and cancelled out by a papal decree in Rome, by people who were NOT eye-witnesses to Christianity.

I’ve got to go now. blessings.

If a person is prevented from going into a pit isn’t the person who prevents him from falling his savior?

Jesus was baptized. Does that mean He was a sinner?

 

[Wesrock]

It is true that the Mary they talk about is found in the bible, but the concept of her being sinless as some kind of special grace, flies right in the face of biblical doctrine. Mary herself called out to God her SAVIOR!!! Joseph and Mary,attended the Passover and offered a “SIN OFFERING” for their family. All of these biblical trues are overturned and cancelled out by a papal decree in Rome, by people who were NOT eye-witnesses to Christianity.

Mary wasn’t sinless through her own power, but by the special grace of God as a privilege, applying the merits of Christ’s eternal sacrifice to her at her conception. God and Christ remain her savior. Her immaculate conception is a direct result of God saving her.

Also, Mary and Joseph submitted to the law, as did Jesus, and followed the laws guidance regarding ritual purity, too. Her making the prescribed offering at the temple doesn’t mean she committed any sins.

 

[tgGodsway]

I did misspeak when I said Jesus did the will of His Father. Jesus could have exercised his own will as a man. He didn’t. Therefore He had a human will but chose to do His Father’s will, giving us a pattern.

But as the eternal Son who never dies a death and is never out of union with His Father because He shares that one divine nature with Him, the cross did not kill God.

 

[JohnR77]

Okay…

. Mary herself called out to God her SAVIOR!!! Joseph and Mary,attended the Passover and offered a “SIN OFFERING” for their family.
.

Yes. Mary was saved from the first moment of her conception.
As suggested above, and in comparison as one who might be saved from stepping into a pit. And as explained above, since Jesus took a baptism of repentance by St. John the Baptist, Mary could participate in Passover without inferring she had sinned.

Okay… I just read JOE5859 and now responding.

I do believe in the development of doctrine …

. The decree saying Mary was sinless, a decree that came centuries after her life.

It is true that the Mary they talk about is found in the bible, but the concept of her being sinless as some kind of special grace, flies right in the face of biblical doctrine.

.

Actually the Bible implies that Mary HAD to be saved by God from sin from the moment of her conception. And this Bible truth is stated in the beginning, in the Book of Genesis.

Read :

SATAN’S ENEMY #1

  An introduction to why we should consider being devoted to Mary with an emphasis on her Immaculate Conception

defendingthebride.com/ma2/number.html

God bless,
John

.

 

[grannymh]

Jesus is One Divine Person in the Most Holy Trinity. Jesus is One Divine Person Who has the Divine Nature of the Trinity. In addition, out of love for us, John 3: 16-17, the Divine Person Jesus assumed not absorbed human nature. Now there is One Divine Person with two natures Divine and human. The formal name is Hypostatic Union, CCC Glossary, page 882.

I understand how that can be confusing. Go slowly.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[grannymh]

Jesus was baptized. Does that mean He was a sinner?

Jesus is not a sinner.

Jesus, as the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, has the Divine power to assume, not absorb, human nature. This means that Jesus can freely submit, without human sin, to John the Baptist. Chapter 3, Gospel of Matthew.

 

[tgGodsway]

John r77 I read your link. You’ve got to be kidding. The idea that the “women” found in Rev. 12 is the virgin Mary is crazy stuff. He had no biblical support other than an opinion.

It is settled theology among those who love end time events that the “women” mentioned here in Rev. 12 is actually converted Jews. They are the Church of Jesus Christ resisting the persecution from the anti-Christ. These same people, are the spiritual line of Abraham who will flee the land of Israel and hide in the wilderness place provided by God, as John writes:

“And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the women (those refusing to worship Antichrist) … and the two wings of the great eagle were given to the women, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time. (three and a half years) from the presence of the serpent.”

Isaiah confirmed such a withdrawal in Is. 16:1-4 Also Ezek. 20:34,35

It’s interesting to note that the wilderness into which a remnant of Israel will flee, is the one area that the antichrist and his armies will be unable to overthrow during the first half of the seventieth week, Dan. 11:41.

The point is, the bible speaks through various witnesses to the fact that these people are converted Jews. John called them the women, feminine gender is common ground for the Church. It this case it is converted Jews who were “called out.”=Church

 

[tgGodsway]

John r77 I read your link. You’ve got to be kidding. The idea that the “women” found in Rev. 12 is the virgin Mary is crazy stuff. He had no biblical support other than an opinion.

It is settled theology among those who love end time events that the “women” mentioned here in Rev. 12 is actually converted Jews. They are the Church of Jesus Christ resisting the persecution from the anti-Christ. These same people, are the spiritual line of Abraham who will flee the land of Israel and hide in the wilderness place provided by God, as John writes:

“And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the women (those refusing to worship Antichrist) … and the two wings of the great eagle were given to the women, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time. (three and a half years) from the presence of the serpent.”

Isaiah confirmed such a withdrawal in Is. 16:1-4 Also Ezek. 20:34,35

It’s interesting to note that the wilderness into which a remnant of Israel will flee, is the one area that the antichrist and his armies will be unable to overthrow during the first half of the seventieth week, Dan. 11:41.

The point is, the bible speaks through various witnesses to the fact that these people are converted Jews. John called them the women, feminine gender is common ground for the Church. It this case it is converted Jews who were “called out.”=Church

Back to the earlier issue. The Apostle Paul said to the Church at Rome. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Did Paul not get the memo… Centuries later a Pope, (I’m not sure which one) decreed that Mary was sinless… … Maybe the Pope didn’t get the memo. That memo is called the word of God to the Church at Rome.

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote that letter. So we could convincingly say that it was the Holy Spirit who said, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake by saying “ALL” when it wasn’t everyone? Mary was supposedly sinless at conception, but the holy Spirit didn’t want to declare it at that time. He would have actually had to conceal the truth of it if it were true.

Only after many centuries, did He reveal it?. The holy Spirit said Al l= everyone is a sinner. As a matter of fact in Romans 3:10-18. … the Holy Spirit belabored the point.

Why would the Holy Spirit conceal a truth about Mary?.. This would seem to be a form of deception, is it not?

Somebody please bridge the huge gulf between settled doctrine of the bible and subjective pronouncements of people who were not present at the founding of the Church. They decree things that contradict settled matters.

 

[James248]

Jesus is not a sinner.

Jesus, as the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, has the Divine power to assume, not absorb, human nature. This means that Jesus can freely submit, without human sin, to John the Baptist. Chapter 3, Gospel of Matthew.

Did I address you?

 

[James248]

Back to the earlier issue. The Apostle Paul said to the Church at Rome. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Did Paul not get the memo… Centuries later a Pope, (I’m not sure which one) decreed that Mary was sinless… … Maybe the Pope didn’t get the memo. That memo is called the word of God to the Church at Rome.

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote that letter. So we could convincingly say that it was the Holy Spirit who said, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake by saying “ALL” when it wasn’t everyone? Mary was supposedly sinless at conception, but the holy Spirit didn’t want to declare it at that time. He would have actually had to conceal the truth of it if it were true.

Only after many centuries, did He reveal it?. The holy Spirit said Al l= everyone is a sinner. As a matter of fact in Romans 3:10-18. … the Holy Spirit belabored the point.

Why would the Holy Spirit conceal a truth about Mary?.. This would seem to be a form of deception, is it not?

Somebody please bridge the huge gulf between settled doctrine of the bible and subjective pronouncements of people who were not present at the founding of the Church. They decree things that contradict settled matters.

The Holy Spirit did reveal this truth through the Angel Gabriel.

unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/12/what-did-angel-say-to-mary.html

 

[Cathoholic]

tgGodsway:

Back to the earlier issue. The Apostle Paul said to the Church at Rome. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Did Paul not get the memo… Centuries later a Pope, (I’m not sure which one) decreed that Mary was sinless… … Maybe the Pope didn’t get the memo. That memo is called the word of God to the Church at Rome.

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote that letter. So we could convincingly say that it was the Holy Spirit who said, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake by saying “ALL” when it wasn’t everyone? Mary was supposedly sinless at conception, but the holy Spirit didn’t want to declare it at that time. He would have actually had to conceal the truth of it if it were true.

Only after many centuries, did He reveal it?. The holy Spirit said Al l= everyone is a sinner. As a matter of fact in Romans 3:10-18. … the Holy Spirit belabored the point.

Why would the Holy Spirit conceal a truth about Mary?.. This would seem to be a form of deception, is it not?

You know tgGodsway I have heard atheists use that exact argumentation against Jesus.

They point out . . . . “Even with Christian theology Jesus is true God and true Man” (and ALL “men” are sinners).

Therefore . . . . .

They would use YOUR exact line of argumentation to say something to the effect of . . . . .

Back to the earlier issue. The Apostle Paul said to the Church at Rome. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Did Paul not get the memo… Centuries later a Council, (I’m not sure which one) decreed that Jesus was God AND man and therefore sinless … … Maybe the Pope didn’t get the memo. That memo is called the word of God to the Church at Rome.

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote that letter. So we could convincingly say that it was the Holy Spirit who said, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake by saying “ALL” when it wasn’t everyone?

Jesus was supposedly sinless, but the holy Spirit didn’t want to declare it at that time. He would have actually had to conceal the truth of it if it were true.

Only after three centuries, did He reveal it?. The holy Spirit said Al l= everyone is a sinner. As a matter of fact in Romans 3:10-18. … the Holy Spirit belabored the point.

Why would the Holy Spirit conceal a truth about Jesus?.. This would seem to be a form of deception, is it not?

How would YOU answer those atheists who pick and choose Scriptures to try to club Christians with them (I have actually had this discussion with if I recall correctly, an atheist, before).

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Wesrock]

John r77 I read your link. You’ve got to be kidding. The idea that the “women” found in Rev. 12 is the virgin Mary is crazy stuff. He had no biblical support other than an opinion.

It is settled theology among those who love end time events that the “women” mentioned here in Rev. 12 is actually converted Jews. They are the Church of Jesus Christ resisting the persecution from the anti-Christ. These same people, are the spiritual line of Abraham who will flee the land of Israel and hide in the wilderness place provided by God, as John writes:

“And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the women (those refusing to worship Antichrist) … and the two wings of the great eagle were given to the women, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time. (three and a half years) from the presence of the serpent.”

Isaiah confirmed such a withdrawal in Is. 16:1-4 Also Ezek. 20:34,35

It’s interesting to note that the wilderness into which a remnant of Israel will flee, is the one area that the antichrist and his armies will be unable to overthrow during the first half of the seventieth week, Dan. 11:41.

The point is, the bible speaks through various witnesses to the fact that these people are converted Jews. John called them the women, feminine gender is common ground for the Church. It this case it is converted Jews who were “called out.”=Church

And you miss out on Mary as being the archtype of both Daughter Zion and the Church. The woman of Revelation is the people of Israel suffering as it brings about the Messiah, she is the Ark of the Covenant, and she is Mary. The verses need not carry only one meaning.

 

[grannymh]

Back to the earlier issue. The Apostle Paul said to the Church at Rome. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

For general information.

“for all have sinned” does not include the Most Holy Trinity.

 

[grannymh]

For general information.

“for all have sinned” does not include the Most Holy Trinity.