Why can some withstand torture and others cannot?

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I frequently read about martyrs who undergo torture. But then there are others who, under torture, end up “giving in” to the torturers’ request, whatever it may be. This is a weird question, but I"m assuming the ability to undergo torture is a total gift from God and nothing to do with the martyr’s own ability to withstand pain. So does that mean that those who “give in” just don’t have a strong enough relationship with God because he won’t give them the gift of being “strong enough” to endure the torture? I’m sure the answer is “we’ll never know” and “it’s an individual thing between he and God” but just wondering if there were any other thoughts on this…
 
If you take your question out of the specific context of the faith, it also has to do with whether the subject of the torture has the internal coping mechanisms that allow one to interpret physical or psychic pain in a way that make it possible to withstand the mental strain involved. People do withstand incredible torture for reasons other than faith in God.

It isn’t just the pain. It is also the idea that the pain will* never stop *unless the person capitulates, and in fact will only get worse. It is also the interpretation that suffering the pain serves no purpose. There are lies that can be made to seem true, if someone being tortured has not been given the means beforehand to recognize what is happening to them. If, on the other hand, the subject sees a postitive purpose in holding out to the end, if they have been taught to recognize the “tricks of the trade” for what they are, they will have a much-enhanced ability to persevere.

This might happen purely by grace, but it also might happen by having gone through deprivations and a certain amount of pain or induced fear in the way of training, as those in the military might do. For instance, being repeatedly dunked in water under the threat of drowning is something that can be prepared for, in a controlled setting in which the subject knows that they will not be drowned. A person can be coached to learn the habitual thinking needed to withstand that sort of abuse when it is real.
 
I certainly hope that I am not put a test on this one.

I certainly would not make any attempt to answer this question for no one knows the answer to that nor could we forsee how we would react.
 
KestrelRose said:
I certainly hope that I am not put a test on this one.

I certainly would not make any attempt to answer this question for no one knows the answer to that nor could we forsee how we would react.
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It’s true. We can speculate all we want but until we are actually living that situation,until that “moment of reality”, we can’t tell how we will react.

One trait that appears native or at least fairly common to Saints who endured torture and marrtyrdom, is not only the love they had for God;

(there is an alleged story from tradition that says as St. Andrew was being led towards his cross by his captors and realized he was going to be crucified, wept for joy at the prospect of being identified with Christ in this way);

but also for the love they had for their captors/torturers;

St. Issac Jogues endured all kinds of tortures but later returned,
as maimed as he was, to continue his missionary work and was eventually martyred.

St. Stephen, while being stoned cried out, “Lord, don’t hold this sin against them”, which reflects a holy love and zeal for the salvation of souls, because it so closely resembles,“Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” [Lk 23:34]

The question is not so “weird” HeWillProvide; I think it can be said that the majority of the martyrs’ torturers were baffled at how their subjects could endure such cruelty - some were even converted by it.
 
Some people have a higher pain threshold than others, others have a very strong sense of duty and or commitment to a belief which can help them override physical pain or deprivation. I worked with a guy who had been a POW in Vietnam for six years. He had been a helicopter pilot and was subjected to torture on an almost continual basis; He said that he would mentally take himself to another place, almost like a self hypnosis, and in effect disassociate himself from the physical pain. He said that often, not always, but often, particularly if the torturers were using the same methods they had previously used and he was familiar with he could cope.

He said that it was his strong sense of commitment to the Navy, to the US Government, to his family and to God that allowed him to perservere where others could not. He had a a cause, a belief that they could not shatter, no matter what they did.

It has been my experience that a strong sense of commitment to a belief or cause and strong faith in God can give people a tremendously high level of motivation and determination and allow them to withstand pain and/or deprivation that most could not.
 
You are on the wrong site for this sort of discussion. You need to go to a site that discusses psychology, stress, and pain suppression. This site caters to religious discussion and you need something more technically specific.

Matthew
 
drafdog said:
You are on the wrong site for this sort of discussion. You need to go to a site that discusses psychology, stress, and pain suppression. This site caters to religious discussion and you need something more technically specific.

Matthew
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I disagree. By saying the original question is wrong for this site is the same as saying that God had nothing to do with the martyrs’ ability to withstand torture. You don’t know if God did or did not have anything to do with their endurance, and as long as there is the possibility that God did have something to do with it, this question is certainly okay to be on this site. Although you did prompt me to go to those psychology sites anyway! Thanks.
 
Incidentally, OP, how do you differentiate between God’s gift and a particular martyr’s ability to withstand pain? No one takes a breath, save by the gift of God.

Although virtue is developed by relationship with God and experience in following God’s grace, these too are gifts. The only differentiation I can see is between a) those gifts bestowed without the knowledge or cooperation of the individidual and b) those bestowed with the additional gifts of allowing the individual knowledge of and cooperation with the process.
 
I remember reading a quote from Cardinal John Henry Newman some time back but will need to paraphrase. He was speaking of sufferings but I can’t recall with any degree of certainty if they were referred to as “crosses” or not. Anyhow it was similar to this:

“Lord, I can’t ask for more crosses to bear like your saints - only for the strength to bear the ones you send me.”
 
Although virtue is developed by relationship with God and experience in following God’s grace, these too are gifts. The only differentiation I can see is between a) those gifts bestowed without the knowledge or cooperation of the individidual *

I guess I just don’t “get” why God would choose to not give gifts to some and then shower others with gifts. For example, someone who has grown up in an abusive home, fell into drugs and crime, and died versus someone who grew up in a strong Catholic household surrounded by love, etc…
 
There are a few things I don’t “get” either. But sometimes what actually looks like a gift to some or a non-gift could be the opposite. For example one of the 4 major effects of the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick is that all of the anointed person’s sufferings are united to the Passion of Christ, which means they actually take on a redemptive value and effect some tremendous good to certain members of the Body of Christ. In this case their sufferings become a gift but we can’t see it.

I’ve just tried to resign myself to the fact that in Heaven it will all make sense.

One that has presented itself as difficult to “get” to several priests I know is when they served as Chaplain for a children’s hospital. As one of them said to me, “You see these little innocent ones suffering from a terminal illness and there isn’t really anything you can say…you just have to be there.”
 
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