C
Cable
Guest
Close, but no cigar.
- Status
C
Cable
Guest
A Protestant pastor is a preacher and a teacher to be sure. He resembles, but isn’t identical to a Catholic priest who additionally offers the sacrifice and delivers absolution in the person of Christ our Lord who is Head of our Church. The authority of a Catholic priest can be traced back, through this apostolic Church, to Jesus Himself who conferred it.
L
Lutheranteach
Guest
Again, something I, and few if any protestants, accept.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Obviously not, or else they could not be Protestant. In fact, the followers of John Knox bashed the heads off of the statues of the Apostles at St. Andrew’s Cathedral in order to emphasize this very point - that they don’t consider Apostolic Succession to be at all relevant to the authority of the minister.
The fact that Protestants disagree that Apostolic Succession is relevant doesn’t take away the plain historical fact that Catholic Bishops and (through their Bishops) priests, actually do have it, however.
C
Cable
Guest
right, that’s what makes you Protestant. No one’s asking you to accept it - would be nice though.
Are you aware of the origins of the doctrines that you do accept?
C
Corki
Guest
Really? As an official teaching? I have relatives in the Methodist, Presbyterian and UCC and none of them have been taught that Communion is more than a sacred memorial. Do you have a source for this?
L
Lutheranteach
Guest
United Methodist Understanding of Holy Communion: kintera.org/atf/cf/%7B3482e846-598f-460a-b9a7-386734470eda%7D/THM-BYGC.PDF
The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.
Background:
Christ’s presence in the sacrament is a promise to the church and is not dependent upon recognition of this presence by individual members of the congregation. Holy Communion always offers grace. We are reminded of what
11This Holy Mystery: A United Methodist Understanding of Holy Communion was adopted by the 2004 General Conference of The United Methodist Church. Copyright © 2003, 2004 The General Board of Discipleship of The United Methodist Church, PO Box 340003, Nashville TN 37203-0003. This paper may be printed, copied, distributed, or otherwise used for nonprofit education by individuals, local congregations, and agencies of The United Methodist Church with the inclusion of the copyright citation. It may not be used for profit or republication without prior permission.
God has done for us in the past, experience what God is doing now as we partake, and anticipate what God will do in the future work of salvation. “We await the final moment of grace, when Christ comes in victory at the end of the age to bring all who are in Christ into the glory of that victory” (By Water and the Spirit: A United Methodist Understanding of Baptism, in BOR; page 816), and we join in feasting at the heavenly banquet table (Luke 22:14-18; Revelation 19:9).
The Christian church has struggled through the centuries to understand just how Christ is present in the Eucharist. Arguments and divisions have occurred over the matter. The Wesleyan tradition affirms the reality of Christ’s presence, although it does not claim to be able to explain it fully. John and Charles Wesley’s 166 Hymns on the Lord’s Supper are our richest resource for study in order to appreciate the Wesleyan understanding of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One of these hymns expresses well both the reality and the mystery: “O the Depth of Love Divine,” stanzas 1 and 4
United Church of Christ: i.ucc.org/StretchYourMind/UCC101/HolyCommunion/tabid/111/Default.aspx
…a sacred memorial of the crucified and risen Christ, a living and effective sign of Christ’s sacrifice in which Christ is truly and rightly present to those who eat and drink;
Presbyterians: pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9505.htm
The Lord’s Supper is a sacrament of continuous growth, nourishment and new life. In our Reformed tradition participation in this sacrament should follow the sacrament of baptism. Just as humans need food and drink for nurture and sustenance, Calvin wrote that the Holy Meal is God’s way of providing for our maintenance during the whole course of our lives after we have been received into God’s family. Both sacraments provide a visible, in fact a graphic, way of presenting God’s promises.
Through the sacraments God seals believers in redemption, God renews our identity as God marks us for service. But participation is a corporate act rather than an act between an individual and God. Jesus is spiritually, authentically present in the elements.
The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.
Background:
Christ’s presence in the sacrament is a promise to the church and is not dependent upon recognition of this presence by individual members of the congregation. Holy Communion always offers grace. We are reminded of what
11This Holy Mystery: A United Methodist Understanding of Holy Communion was adopted by the 2004 General Conference of The United Methodist Church. Copyright © 2003, 2004 The General Board of Discipleship of The United Methodist Church, PO Box 340003, Nashville TN 37203-0003. This paper may be printed, copied, distributed, or otherwise used for nonprofit education by individuals, local congregations, and agencies of The United Methodist Church with the inclusion of the copyright citation. It may not be used for profit or republication without prior permission.
God has done for us in the past, experience what God is doing now as we partake, and anticipate what God will do in the future work of salvation. “We await the final moment of grace, when Christ comes in victory at the end of the age to bring all who are in Christ into the glory of that victory” (By Water and the Spirit: A United Methodist Understanding of Baptism, in BOR; page 816), and we join in feasting at the heavenly banquet table (Luke 22:14-18; Revelation 19:9).
The Christian church has struggled through the centuries to understand just how Christ is present in the Eucharist. Arguments and divisions have occurred over the matter. The Wesleyan tradition affirms the reality of Christ’s presence, although it does not claim to be able to explain it fully. John and Charles Wesley’s 166 Hymns on the Lord’s Supper are our richest resource for study in order to appreciate the Wesleyan understanding of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One of these hymns expresses well both the reality and the mystery: “O the Depth of Love Divine,” stanzas 1 and 4
United Church of Christ: i.ucc.org/StretchYourMind/UCC101/HolyCommunion/tabid/111/Default.aspx
…a sacred memorial of the crucified and risen Christ, a living and effective sign of Christ’s sacrifice in which Christ is truly and rightly present to those who eat and drink;
Presbyterians: pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9505.htm
The Lord’s Supper is a sacrament of continuous growth, nourishment and new life. In our Reformed tradition participation in this sacrament should follow the sacrament of baptism. Just as humans need food and drink for nurture and sustenance, Calvin wrote that the Holy Meal is God’s way of providing for our maintenance during the whole course of our lives after we have been received into God’s family. Both sacraments provide a visible, in fact a graphic, way of presenting God’s promises.
Through the sacraments God seals believers in redemption, God renews our identity as God marks us for service. But participation is a corporate act rather than an act between an individual and God. Jesus is spiritually, authentically present in the elements.
C
Cable
Guest
Not true. The apostles/first Christians always believed and taught their members that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This teaching was preached & spread only within the one, apostolic Church. Other religious groups existed at the time separately and not in union with the Church.
C
choy
Guest
many of the Protestant religions believe that Jesus is present spiritually during communion, but what they receive are still bread and wine, not the Body and Blood. thats not Real Presence, but only Spiritual Presence. Real Presence says that Jesus is present, body, blood, soul, divinity. not just spirit in the bread
what happens is the Protestants believe the Eucharist as something like Baptism. where the water is symbolic and the Holy Spirit comes down when the water is poured, but the water is not the Holy Spirit. in the Eucharist, when you eat the bread, Jesus comes down. again, thats not Real Presence
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Neither is there any spiritual presence in that bread because Christ gave us the Eucharist; He gave us Communion. Christ did not give us bread that signifies His Body, nor did He give us bread that contains only spiritual presence. Protestant commemorations of the Lord’s Supper are not Communion because they are a human invention of Martin Luther (either directly or indirectly based on Luther’s teaching), and so, while Christ might be present in and with the community commemorating His Supper, there is no presence of any kind in the bread.
Here’s what Vatican II has to say on the matter
Though the ecclesial Communities which are separated from us lack the fullness of unity with us flowing from Baptism, and though we believe they have not retained the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Orders, nevertheless when they commemorate His death and resurrection in the Lord’s Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and look forward to His coming in glory. Therefore the teaching concerning the Lord’s Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the dialogue.
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO (Restoration of Unity) which is commonly called the VII Decree on Ecumenism
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
Please note that the Council did not use the word “communion” nor did the Council say anything even close to implying that there is any presence of Christ in the bread used at these services. Presence in the assembly, yes, but presence in the bread, no.
C
choy
Guest
what i meant Father is thats what the Protestants believe. that the bread is still bread and the wine is still wine, but Jesus communes with them spiritually. which means they don’t believe in the Real Presence in the actual sense of the term. but of course we know that their belief is wrong
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
I don’t think their belief is wrong for them, because for them in their services it is JUST A SYMBOL. No matter what they may or may not believe, there is a lack of a proper minister for consecration as the Church knows it.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
I realize that you yourself understand it (I’ve seen enough of your posts to be able to say that), but what concerns me as I read posts here on CAF as well as conversations in real life is the almost casual way that Catholics use the word “communion” to refer to Protestant commemorations of the Lord’s Supper. We need to remember that we can’t call it communion if it isn’t communion. I’m also concerned that Catholics in general sometimes don’t seem to understand the fact that just because Protestants believe that the bread used in their services has some spiritual presence (and yes, this exact definition will vary from one to the other) doesn’t mean that there actually is some spiritual presence in the bread. This topic comes up fairly often here on these threads, and what concerns me is that as I read posts I sometimes get the impression that people are saying that there are different kinds of communion; there’s Catholic Communion which is the Body of Christ, and then there’s Protestant communion which is a symbol. In reality, there’s just no such thing as Protestant communion because if it isn’t Communion, it isn’t Communion.
A
atara
Guest
I have been searching for the Church teachings on this matter. I guess it’s debated often because it comes up often.
Is it okay or not okay for a practicing Catholic to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it, in a Baptist Church. I understand that is is NOT the real presence. I understand that in their eyes, I am qualified to receive it because I am a Christian. But, what is the view in the Church’s eyes?
Is it herasy to do so? Or, is just being kinda and participatory. It’s not like the Baptist church is “competing” with transubstantiation:shrug: no am I joining the church if I partake in their symbolic ritual. I’m just not sure of Church teaching on this. Is it in the Catechism?.
Is it okay or not okay for a practicing Catholic to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it, in a Baptist Church. I understand that is is NOT the real presence. I understand that in their eyes, I am qualified to receive it because I am a Christian. But, what is the view in the Church’s eyes?
Is it herasy to do so? Or, is just being kinda and participatory. It’s not like the Baptist church is “competing” with transubstantiation:shrug: no am I joining the church if I partake in their symbolic ritual. I’m just not sure of Church teaching on this. Is it in the Catechism?.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Yes, it is in the catechism. The teaching is very simple. You cannot receive communion from ANY other denomination that does not believe in Transubstantiation and that does not have priests ordained with valid Apostolic Succession. Even then, you may ONLY receive from one of those groups if it is impossible to get to a Catholic Church (assuming they would even let you, which the Orthodox probably wouldn’t), or your life is in danger. Other groups that would have a valid Eucharist would be the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Polish National Catholic Church, and the SSPX. To receive communion from a Protestant church would be to imply that you were in communion with them, and agreed with their beliefs. As such, it would be as if you were tacitly endorsing their beliefs, which are heretical from the Catholic point of view.I have been searching for the Church teachings on this matter. I guess it’s debated often because it comes up often.
Is it okay or not okay for a practicing Catholic to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it, in a Baptist Church. I understand that is is NOT the real presence. I understand that in their eyes, I am qualified to receive it because I am a Christian. But, what is the view in the Church’s eyes?
Is it herasy to do so? Or, is just being kinda and participatory. It’s not like the Baptist church is “competing” with transubstantiation:shrug: no am I joining the church if I partake in their symbolic ritual. I’m just not sure of Church teaching on this. Is it in the Catechism?.
So, the short answer is that a Catholic may NOT receive communion in a Baptist church under any circumstances.
A
atara
Guest
J
jmcrae
Guest
Actually, we are not to receive Holy Communion outside of the Catholic Church at all - closed communion goes both ways. The reason is that it sends a message of a kind of Christian unity that does not actually exist - it makes it seem as if we have no doctrinal differences worth worrying about.
R
Rolltide
Guest
Actually, it IS possible… under the limited circumstances listed below:
From the 1983 Code of Canon Law:
Canon 844 (c.671 in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches)
- Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments to Catholic members of the Christian faithful only and, likewise, the latter may licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers with due regard for parts 2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, part 2.
- Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid.
- Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.
- If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.
- For the cases in parts 2, 3, and 4, neither the diocesan bishop nor the conference of bishops is to enact general norms except after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.
In keeping with the sacramental meaning of the Eucharist this canon reserves the sacraments to Catholics, that is, those who are in communion with the Church. It then addresses the question of Catholics receiving the sacraments from non-Catholics. It sets the following strict conditions:
a. necessity or genuine spiritual advantage
b. when the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided
c. it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister
d. a church which has valid sacraments
J
jmcrae
Guest
Anything is always possible under limited and special circumstances - I was assuming normality.
I always hate to dilute my statements with all of the "if-then"s that are never going to happen in the case of the person reading my message - sorry about that! My “never” refers to “In your case, never.” In the case of someone living in Russia who is dying and has no access to a Catholic priest, and in the event that the Russian priest agrees to it, then yes, it can be possible (but even so, not exactly likely).
R
Rolltide
Guest
As I cited above, the exact rules are actually NOT in the Catechism per se, but they ARE part of Canon Law.THANK YOU THANK YOU!
Do you know where I might find it in the Catechism?
- Status