Why can't angels change their minds?

[fakename]

My idea is that they hold everything to be self-evident, so that since the will and intellect is connected (esp. in pure intellects), their decisions are firm.

So how were the angels allowed to repent? were they so allowed?

 

[Dorothy]

When Lucifer and the angels that followed him made their decision to rebel against God, they could not repent, nor did they want to.

It is my understanding (I was taught this) it is because they were able to see at a glance, with their superior intellects than ours, what their choice would involve, and that it would be irrevocable.

 

[runningdude]

No angel has ever repented. They either remained in communion with God, or they chose to sin.

I think its important to realize, though, that they have a different kind of existence than human beings. They don’t exist in the physical world, and are outside of time and space. After their creation, they were given a choice, and were given the perfect intellect to understand that choice. Some chose Heaven and some chose hell. They knew they couldn’t repent, but chose to sin anyways.

Adam and Eve had a different experience though. They were ask to trust God, and all their earthly needs would be met. Instead, they put their trust in a fallen angel in the form of a snake, and allowed themselves to be filled with greed. They were greedy for the type of knowledge that the angels and God Himself possessed, and ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

In essence, they learned the hard way about Good and Evil. They got what they wanted, and with it, gave man the knowledge to choose evil, and cut man off from the divine grace protecting us from sin.

So man only learned of evil by choosing to not trust in God by disobeying His command to not eat of the fruit. Angels, however, were created with this innate knowledge, and some chose to use it, giving rise to Satan and the demons. We’re two different orders of creation, with a different relationship to God.

 

[tonyrey]

They can! They’re not zombies…

 

[Aelred_Minor]

If everything was self-evident to the angels, then they all would have instantly known that they ought to love and serve God. If their wills and intellects were connected such that they always chose what their intellects revealed was best, then they therefore would have all chosen to love and serve God.

If their intellects were not able to reveal that they ought to love and serve God then they could be held morally responsible for choosing not to love and serve Him.

Therefore, it is apparent to me that the angels all knew that they should love and serve God, but their decision whether or not to do this was not determined by this knowledge. Their wills were free from determination by their intellects, and so had the natural power to rebel against their intellect and choose an irrational path instead- that of selfishness and rebellion against God. Those who did this became the demons, while those who followed their intellects and chose God became the good angels.

On the basis of this, the traditional Thomist explanation for why the angels can’t repent or fall into sin, as it is commonly explained at least, seems flawed to me. The idea takes for granted that the will always chooses the greatest good revealed to it by the intellect, which removes the basis for both free will and moral culpability. Satan and the other demons (and reprobate human souls) would just be idiotic innocents, always trying to do what is right but so stupid they are always messing things up, and God wouldn’t be much of a God for punishing them simply because He endowed them with inferior intellectual abilities.

Even if angels instantly know anything they are naturally capable of knowing, the good angels and the evil angels would equally have this power and yet have chosen differently, so their wills must work independently of their angelic intellects. We therefore need to look at other issues to see why they can’t change their minds.

For the good angels (like elect souls in heaven), we have the Beatific Vision to take into account. Perhaps the Beatific Vision is an exception to the general rule that free creatures can choose lesser goods over greater, since in it the creature perceives not just a greater finite good, but infinite Good, and it is still just because the creature freely chose that infinite good before receiving the vision of it.

I haven’t personally worked out that issue to my own satisfaction, but even if it is true we still have the demons (and perhaps the reprobate souls in hell) to consider. Even if those in heaven can’t sin because of the Beatific Vision, why can’t those in hell repent? If they are perpetually morally culpable for their damnation, then on some level they must intellectually know that repentance would be the most rational thing to do. What I would focus on in this case is not intellect, but grace. A human being can only choose to love and serve God by accepting supernatural grace, by which God moves the will to do something which otherwise would be impossible for it to do. I would speculate that the angels are in a similar situation.

Every free creature is given a time (whether for the angels it is in any way related to time as we know it is another matter, but they must have at least had something analogous) in which they are given sufficient grace for salvation. However, this period is of limited duration, so that the mercy or justice of God may be optimally made manifest by the permanence of a person’s eternal destiny. After a certain point (physical death plus any needed duration of purgatory for humans, we don’t know what for angels) we are either given the beatific vision if we are in God’s friendship, or we cease to be offered supernatural grace if we are not. The cumulative fundamental decision for or against God that was made during the period of trial is thus made permanent, so there will be no going back and forth between heaven and hell.

 

[Brendan]

Angels are non temporal beings. They were creating knowing all that they would ever know.

Thus, for them to change their minds would be for them to be contrary to their nature, that they somehow came into knowledge temporally.

That is impossible for an angel.

Humans are radically different, we encounter knowledge sequentially. We learn new things and that causes our intellects to change temporally. We change our minds as we encounter new information. Our intellect informs our will and our desires change.

For an angel, since they already know all that they will ever know, their intellects inform their will once and for all time. There is no change, nor can their be.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Angels are non temporal beings. They were creating knowing all that they would ever know.

Thus, for them to change their minds would be for them to be contrary to their nature, that they somehow came into knowledge temporally.

That is impossible for an angel.

Humans are radically different, we encounter knowledge sequentially. We learn new things and that causes our intellects to change temporally. We change our minds as we encounter new information. Our intellect informs our will and our desires change.

For an angel, since they already know all that they will ever know, their intellects inform their will once and for all time. There is no change, nor can their be.

Then in your view was Satan created with inferior knowledge compared to Michael? If not, how do you account for the difference between their choices?

 

[promethius]

For the good angels (like elect souls in heaven), we have the Beatific Vision to take into account. Perhaps the Beatific Vision is an exception to the general rule that free creatures can choose lesser goods over greater, since in it the creature perceives not just a greater finite good, but infinite Good, and it is still just because the creature freely chose that infinite good before receiving the vision of it.

I haven’t personally worked out that issue to my own satisfaction, but even if it is true we still have the demons (and perhaps the reprobate souls in hell) to consider. Even if those in heaven can’t sin because of the Beatific Vision, why can’t those in hell repent? If they are perpetually morally culpable for their damnation, then on some level they must intellectually know that repentance would be the most rational thing to do. What I would focus on in this case is not intellect, but grace. A human being can only choose to love and serve God by accepting supernatural grace, by which God moves the will to do something which otherwise would be impossible for it to do. I would speculate that the angels are in a similar situation.

I think we need to describe beatific vision as something different than a binary (you have it or you don’t). Instead beatific vision should be regarded as a scale. Humans have SOME level of beatific vision ourselves. At a certain point (the maximum) one is given so much beatific vision (perfect) that our will and intellect become perfectly tied and aligned to God… our freedom never results in sin because our will does not desire sin at all.

On this scale then, angels had their place. It wasn’t PERFECT beatific vision… but it was as close to perfect vision as you could get and still have a will which MIGHT choose against God. At this point, God showed the angels all the information they would ever have (namely, He showed them the Christ and required worship). Some angels refused to bow, and thus were thrown out. The others were welcomed into perfect beatific vision.

Why can’t the angels who became demons repent? It’s a matter of closeness. You see, there is significant space between MY level of beatific vision and PERFECT beatific vision. If I sin and reject God, God can pour out grace on my life and bring me CLOSER to Him, and then offer me the choice again. However, with the demons they have been AS CLOSE TO PERFECT VISION as is possible, and still they have rejected. There is nothing God can do to more fully reveal Himself to them without violating their free will, and thus God cannot offer them repentence, nor can they, who have had the best chance of accepting Christ of any being ever in existance, repent based on any new knowledge or experience of God… they can have no new knowledge or experience in this regard!

 

[Della]

Yes, I see it as promethius does (great explanation! ).

The good angels saw and said, “Thy will be done.” The bad angels saw and said, “I will not serve! My will be done.”

Sin is always the same no matter who commits it, angels or humans, but we humans have far less knowledge than the angels, so we can improve and be perfected. The angels are a perfect as they will ever be.

An example is the Time Lords on Doctor Who. The Doctor looked into infinity and knew he was to serve and choose to accept it. The Master looked into infinity and rejected his role, wishing to rule instead of serve others. Each one’s choice was irrevocable, resulting in one becoming a savior and the other becoming a destroyer.

 

[PJM]

=fakename;8399649]My idea is that they hold everything to be self-evident, so that since the will and intellect is connected (esp. in pure intellects), their decisions are firm.

So how were the angels allowed to repent? were they so allowed?

WOW Were did that come from?

Angels LIKE us, LIKE God gace a mind, intellect and a freewill so they certainly can [and as santan has proven do] change there minds:thumbsup:

 

[tonyrey]

Every free creature is given a time (whether for the angels it is in any way related to time as we know it is another matter, but they must have at least had something analogous) in which they are given sufficient grace for salvation. However, this period is of limited duration, so that the mercy or justice of God may be optimally made manifest by the permanence of a person’s eternal destiny. After a certain point (physical death plus any needed duration of purgatory for humans, we don’t know what for angels) we are either given the beatific vision if we are in God’s friendship, or we cease to be offered supernatural grace if we are not. The cumulative fundamental decision for or against God that was made during the period of trial is thus made permanent, so there will be no going back and forth between heaven and hell.

I don’t see why our eternal destiny should be affected by the time factor. Many children die before they have even had a chance to develop.

There is no temporal duration in purgatory! Time doesn’t exist in the spiritual realm. The Church has abolished the abolition of the classification of indulgences by years and days because “temporal punishment” was only a symbolic way of representing the degree of atonement necessary to be in the Presence of God.

 

[runningdude]

Then in your view was Satan created with inferior knowledge compared to Michael? If not, how do you account for the difference between their choices?

They were created with the same knowledge… Satan just chose to use it in an inferior manner.

 

[PJM]

=tonyrey;8407196]I don’t see why our eternal destiny should be affected by the time factor. Many children die before they have even had a chance to develop.

There is no temporal duration in purgatory! Time doesn’t exist in the spiritual realm. The Church has abolished the abolition of the classification of indulgences by years and days because “temporal punishment” was only a symbolic way of representing the degree of atonement necessary to be in the Presence of God.

Tony, what is the source of this position. I don’t see it in the Catecheism?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t see why our eternal destiny should be affected by the time factor. Many children die before they have even had a chance to develop.

Pat, the Catechism obviously doesn’t cover every detail of life in the spiritual realm but it makes it clear that after death we are either in the presence of God in heaven or in hell which is not a place but a state of separation from God. In either case we are no longer in time and space but eternity. Purgatory is certainly not in this world (although this life often serves the same purpose!) and is a state of spiritual purification that cannot be measured quantitatively.

God bless.

 

[PJM]

=tonyrey;8421953]Pat, the Catechism obviously doesn’t cover every detail of life in the spiritual realm but it makes it clear that after death we are either in the presence of God in heaven or in hell which is not a place but a state of separation from God. In either case we are no longer in time and space but eternity. Purgatory is certainly not in this world (although this life often serves the same purpose!) and is a state of spiritual purification that cannot be measured quantitatively.

God bless.

Hi Tony

Sorry to disagree with you.

But becaue God is perfect all who enter into His presence would also need to be “perfected”

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

Also these bible passages refer to the same issue. And look at 2nd. Mac. 12: there wouid be no reason to pray for the dead if they were already in hell or heaven.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead

1055 By virtue of the “communion of saints,” the Church commends the dead to God’s mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their
behalf.

**962 **“We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers” (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

1096 Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy. A better knowledge of the Jewish people’s faith and religious life as professed and lived even now can help our better understanding of certain aspects of Christian liturgy. For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God’s mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord’s Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[tonyrey]

Hi Tony

Sorry to disagree with you.

But becaue God is perfect all who enter into His presence would also need to be “perfected”

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

Also these bible passages refer to the same issue. And look at 2nd. Mac. 12: there wouid be no reason to pray for the dead if they were already in hell or heaven.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead

1055 By virtue of the “communion of saints,” the Church commends the dead to God’s mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their
behalf.

**962 **“We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers” (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

1096 Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy. A better knowledge of the Jewish people’s faith and religious life as professed and lived even now can help our better understanding of certain aspects of Christian liturgy. For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God’s mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord’s Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.

God Bless,
Pat

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I believe angels can change their minds if they are not in God’s presence. I don’t believe Satan was (is) in God’s presence. No one in Hell or Purgatory can be in God’s Presence; otherwise they would also be in Heaven - which is absurd!

 

[tonyrey]

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I believe angels can change their minds if they are not in God’s presence. I don’t believe Satan was (is) in God’s presence. No one in Hell or Purgatory can be in God’s Presence; otherwise they would also be in Heaven - which is absurd!

Of course God is omnipresent in Creation because He sustains everything in existence but that is the result of His creative power not His personal Presence.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Such a strange thread, and strange indeed to try to imagine a finite but conscious being outside of time. Knowing God, seeing God, with as much ‘smarts’ as they could possibly have, how could they have chosen sin? It’s utterly baffling.

In this temporal realm, I would dearly love just to see an angel for just one second, it would mean so much to me!

And to see God! I probably couldn’t bear the Majesty of that though . . . at least not on this earth in my present state. I’m not worthy of it either.

I often beseech my guardian angel to become visible for just a little bit, just a fraction of a second, but I suppose I’m getting what I’m supposed to be getting by being stuck in this relentlessly materialistic world.

 

[empther]

When we choose an action we choose what is good for ourselves. Even when we choose something that is sacrificial, that may lead to martyrdom, ultimately it leads to our salvation and so we choose was is good for ourselves.

For the devils, with their immensely powerful wills, pride lead them to seek independence from God and doing things their own way as what was good for themselves. Even in hell they think their independence from God is good for them. Therefore, they will not repent.

Of course this was the utmost folly, but they did it anyways. We with out weakened wills cannot understand this obstinacy, but Scripture indicates hell is permanent.

---

The angels did not know all they would ever know from the moment of creation,
or else the devils would know as much as the angels in Heaven! :bigyikes: This is rediculous. However, the devils did know more than enough to understand what they were doing.

 

[Dorothy]

Such a strange thread, and strange indeed to try to imagine a finite but conscious being outside of time. Knowing God, seeing God, with as much ‘smarts’ as they could possibly have, how could they have chosen sin? It’s utterly baffling.

In this temporal realm, I would dearly love just to see an angel for just one second, it would mean so much to me!

And to see God! I probably couldn’t bear the Majesty of that though . . . at least not on this earth in my present state. I’m not worthy of it either.

I often beseech my guardian angel to become visible for just a little bit, just a fraction of a second, but I suppose I’m getting what I’m supposed to be getting by being stuck in this relentlessly materialistic world.

By faith we believe our guardian angels are there. This materialistic world is just a stepping stone to the next, with the help of the grace of God.