Why can't angels change their minds?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fakename
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
By faith we believe our guardian angels are there. This materialistic world is just a stepping stone to the next, with the help of the grace of God.
Yes, I think you’re right.

Often, I get very very depressed. I sometimes succeed in getting out of it a bit by praying. After I feel a bit better, I want to see my guardian angel. After many entreaties on my part, I conclude that I don’t get to have evidence, I just have to have faith.

Time passes, something happens, I get very very depressed, I start praying in ernest again, I feel better, I want to see my guardian angel . . .

Wash, rinse, repeat, wash, rinse, repeat, wash . . . and so it goes.

Faith has become sort of an empirical fact for me.

Just my $0.02.
 
As I understand it, each angel is it’s own species. I don’t think angels can change their minds…why would they? Plus they are not of this world and don’t think like us.
:harp: and most of them are praising the Father :gopray2:

Have you named your guardian angel today?:angel1:

😃
 
Often, I get very very depressed. I sometimes succeed in getting out of it a bit by praying. After I feel a bit better, I want to see my guardian angel. After many entreaties on my part, I conclude that I don’t get to have evidence, I just have to have faith.

Time passes, something happens, I get very very depressed, I start praying in ernest again, I feel better, I want to see my guardian angel . . .
It sounds like many of you have been studying the dear St. Thomas in relation to this thread. One thing I received from God in reading Thomas’ Summa is that the angels (both good and bad) are real. Your Guardian Angel is real Pat, and is being your guardian, your custodian, to keep you safe as you grow in grace.

Your guardian angel will not change his mind about watching over your comings and goings because he does not have to reason through things the way we do before he knows what is true. He has known all he knows since he was created. He loves himself as being what he was created to be, and unlike the evil angels, he loves the God who created him, and he loves all God created, especially you, whom he was created to watch over.

Changing one’s mind has to do with not knowing everything at once. But when the truth is known, then it is desired, and it is loved. We are different than the angels in that we learn what we know over time, but reasoning and by revelation, and so as we learn more, we desire and choose and love different things as time goes along. When we do see our God face to face and our guardian angel, we will no longer change our minds either - we will be at rest in the fulfillment of our being with our Lord.

John Martin
 
Have you named your guardian angel today?:angel1:
Somebody on the catholic.org forum said that we should not give a name to our guardian angel, because we can’t be sure who will answer. :bigyikes:

You should call your guardian angel “guardian angel”.
You won’t hear from him,
and you shouldn’t,
because we can’t know who’s there if somebody answers.
 
My idea is that they hold everything to be self-evident, so that since the will and intellect is connected (esp. in pure intellects), their decisions are firm.

So how were the angels allowed to repent? were they so allowed?
Man was made a little lower than the angels. As pure spirits, they should have followed and obeyed God perfectly, but they chose to part from him and there is no redemption for these beings who were created higher than we. It has been speculated that the angels revolted when God revealed his plan to them that he was to become human to save us.
 
Some theologians maintain that the Universe is essentially in a state of war. You can read a lot about this for example in C.S. Lewis. In this war, God and the angels are essentially fighting satan and the demons. And they are fighting for the souls of all living people. We can all as individuals decide where we stand in that war and on which side we fight. Likewise, so can the angels. And because we can’t always see on which side the angels are standing, we should not enter into communion with the angels that we don’t know as for example the esoterics do, and claim to be able to tell the difference between the good ones and the bad ones.
 
My idea is that they hold everything to be self-evident, so that since the will and intellect is connected (esp. in pure intellects), their decisions are firm.

So how were the angels allowed to repent? were they so allowed?
FN:

From The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol. I, Ch. VIII, The Angels, p. 262, The Macmillan Company, 1962:

“7. An angel never goes back on a decision once taken.
There ought to be little difficulty in our admitting such a trait in the mentality of a spirit, for we admire such a characteristic even in man. There is this difference between obstinacy and strength of resolve in man–that obstinacy comes from narrowness of view, while strength of resolve comes truly from a wide grasp of a fact, of its circumstances, and its implications. The perspicacious man need not alter his views and decisions, because he has seen so clearly the true issues of a thing from the very beginning. Vacillation of purpose in man comes from a predominance of the sentimental element over the intellectual element. With spirits, as may easily be perceived, there could be no such source of weakness, no such hesitancy of purpose. At a glance they perceive a truth, either theoretical or practical; they see all its aspects, all its consequences, and there are no lower powers in them that could act under impressions of a more mobile kind, and deflect their clear reason and their entirely spiritual will from its first course.”

It’s not that angels can’t change their minds, it’s that there’s absolutely no need for them to ever do so. The spirit-nature of angels disallows them “any source of sin or error, within his sphere of existence, but he may sin and err in the mysteries of grace, as those mysteries are above him.” (Ibid.)

God bless,
jd
 
FN:

From The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol. I, Ch. VIII, The Angels, p. 262, The Macmillan Company, 1962:

“7. An angel never goes back on a decision once taken.
There ought to be little difficulty in our admitting such a trait in the mentality of a spirit, for we admire such a characteristic even in man. There is this difference between obstinacy and strength of resolve in man–that obstinacy comes from narrowness of view, while strength of resolve comes truly from a wide grasp of a fact, of its circumstances, and its implications. The perspicacious man need not alter his views and decisions, because he has seen so clearly the true issues of a thing from the very beginning. Vacillation of purpose in man comes from a predominance of the sentimental element over the intellectual element. With spirits, as may easily be perceived, there could be no such source of weakness, no such hesitancy of purpose. At a glance they perceive a truth, either theoretical or practical; they see all its aspects, all its consequences, and there are no lower powers in them that could act under impressions of a more mobile kind, and deflect their clear reason and their entirely spiritual will from its first course.”

It’s not that angels can’t change their minds, it’s that there’s absolutely no need for them to ever do so. The spirit-nature of angels disallows them “any source of sin or error, within his sphere of existence, but he may sin and err in the mysteries of grace, as those mysteries are above him.” (Ibid.)

God bless,
jd
Kinda makes me Jealous in a way. To have perfect vision however I don’t think I want to live in a universe where I knew everything. Perhaps when I die and becomes like Angels in that sense I will understand better but till then I like this eternal struggle to learn.
 
The angels, with their superior intellects and blessed with the Beatific Vision, chose anyway to give up heaven. They must have known they were giving it up forever. What’s baffling is how they could have had superior intellects and give up heaven forever. But that’s what any number of brilliant humans will do as well … throw away their inheritance forever with the assumption that there is no inheritance to throw away!
 
The angels, with their superior intellects and blessed with the Beatific Vision, chose anyway to give up heaven. They must have known they were giving it up forever. What’s baffling is how they could have had superior intellects and give up heaven forever. But that’s what any number of brilliant humans will do as well … throw away their inheritance forever with the assumption that there is no inheritance to throw away!
What I’m about to say is going to ruffle some feathers but here goes…

There is no pain in Hell. Hell is merely a part of the universe where God doesn’t go. The ‘Pain’ we subscribe to believe in is due to Dante’s Divine Comedy. In it he describes that those in hell suffer according to the crime.

Keep in mind that this was merely one of the first Catholic fanfictions same as say “Its a wonderful life.” Those events never happened or could happen but present a good moral story.

So when Satan made the call to push aside God all he chose was to live outside of his domain.

Now comes the But.

There is no suffering in hell as we know to be pain and otherwise but let me ask you something:

How happy are you going to be for the rest of eternity know you could have made it to paradise but you choose not too?

Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It doesn’t say ‘They will burn for their crimes’ but I strong believe that there is no greater suffering then the self loathing and frustration one would feel for throwing it all away.
 
It sounds like many of you have been studying the dear St. Thomas in relation to this thread. One thing I received from God in reading Thomas’ Summa is that the angels (both good and bad) are real. Your Guardian Angel is real Pat, and is being your guardian, your custodian, to keep you safe as you grow in grace.

Your guardian angel will not change his mind about watching over your comings and goings because he does not have to reason through things the way we do before he knows what is true. He has known all he knows since he was created. He loves himself as being what he was created to be, and unlike the evil angels, he loves the God who created him, and he loves all God created, especially you, whom he was created to watch over.

Changing one’s mind has to do with not knowing everything at once. But when the truth is known, then it is desired, and it is loved. We are different than the angels in that we learn what we know over time, but reasoning and by revelation, and so as we learn more, we desire and choose and love different things as time goes along. When we do see our God face to face and our guardian angel, we will no longer change our minds either - we will be at rest in the fulfillment of our being with our Lord.
John Martin
Thank you for that John Martin. That last part especially sounds comforting, but until then I will probably still periodically demand that my guardian angel show up. 😉 😛

Did you read that, guardian angel? 😛 :angel1:
 
The angels, with their superior intellects and blessed with the Beatific Vision, chose anyway to give up heaven. They must have known they were giving it up forever. What’s baffling is how they could have had superior intellects and give up heaven forever. But that’s what any number of brilliant humans will do as well … throw away their inheritance forever with the assumption that there is no inheritance to throw away!
The angels were created knowing all they will ever know, not learning to know new things over time. However, the intellect has a priority of how it sees or knows things - the first thing (priority-wise, not time-wise) that an intellect knows is its own self, its own being, even where it came from (and it was good). All angels “knew” themselves as the first actuality of their intellect. Secondly (priority-wise), there is a desire for what is known (for what is good, beautiful, true), which is the Will (different from Free Will). And the act of the will is to Love what is known. The object of this Love was the Vision the angels had upon the instant of their loving - some have the beatific vision, and the evil angels have only the vision of themselves. The Vision is of the Reality that you Know within yourself, but see in its objective reality.

Satan, the highest of all angels, knowing his gloriousness, loved only himself in the fullness of his knowledge, as great as he appeared to himself, and did not love the One who created him so gloriously. That was his Fall, and that also was his appeal to the other angels who followed him “Look at yourself, you are independently glorious”. That was also his appeal to Man - “You will not die, you will be like God”.

John Martin
 
The angels, with their superior intellects and blessed with the Beatific Vision, chose anyway to give up heaven. They must have known they were giving it up forever. What’s baffling is how they could have had superior intellects and give up heaven forever. But that’s what any number of brilliant humans will do as well … throw away their inheritance forever with the assumption that there is no inheritance to throw away!
Charles:

After a brief discussion concerning the excellences of the spirit and how humans err and commit sin, The Teaching of the Catholic Church (Vol. I, Ch. VIII, p. 277) goes on to say:
"We might, as a first attempt at explanation, give this reason for a possible lapse in the spirit world: that spirits, since they are created beings, are finite beings, and that no finite being can claim absolute immunity from every possible error of mind or will. In this universality the principle may be considered as the remote cause of sin in all but God himself; yet this does not work in Catholic theology as a cause of the fall of angels, except as a most vague explanation. A spirit has no ignorances, has no weakness of mind; his nature is so perfect that there is nothing for which he can wish or to which he can aspire; though he is finite, he is complete in his sphere.

“With great wisdom St. Thomas has discarded every sort of motive for the angelic lapse that is not entirely spiritual, that savours more of imagination than of intelligence. He teaches with steady persistence that no spirit in his natural sphere can transgress or err in any way. But if the spirit be taken, so to speak, out of his natural order and placed in another, a higher order – the supernatural order – then there is the possibility of a refusal; the spirit may refuse to accept or to hold something that is above his order; he may, in fact, rebel against the order of God. This is the only tenable theological explanation of the fall of angels . . .”

(I’m sure that I have quoted this before, but, it was worth quoting again.) I think we must always remember that prior to Lucifer’s fall, there was no evil and no sin. There was only God, i.e., “Good.” After Lucifer’s fall, other angels who likewise fell, followed him into his darkness. Since then, Lucifer and those who followed after him are actively attempting to lure human souls to join them - and this is where and when “evil” enters the world. They know that the same lapse can and does occur in us. And, this is very important to keep in mind when relating with an agnostic, or an agnostic-atheist. Reveling-atheists have already joined, it would appear, the Lucifer’s ranks.

It must also be remembered that, by this, St. Thomas was not speaking of the colloquial meaning of “rebellion.” Usually we see rebellion as a violent throwing off of the shackles of a baron or king. Instead, St. Thomas explains that it is more like an “inability.” More precisely, an “inability to be individually able to come up to par with an excellenceo far beyond itself.” I liken it to the feeling a young person may get when entering a room where there is a girl, or a boy, that is so exceptional that he, or she, seems to lose motor control. If she speaks to him, he may answer her with “in tongues.” (Followed by sheepish embarrassment!)

God bless,
jd
 
My idea is that they hold everything to be self-evident, so that since the will and intellect is connected (esp. in pure intellects), their decisions are firm.

So how were the angels allowed to repent? were they so allowed?
What angel repented? They either sided with Lucifer or stayed with God.
 
Somebody on the catholic.org forum said that we should not give a name to our guardian angel, because we can’t be sure who will answer. :bigyikes:

You should call your guardian angel “guardian angel”.
You won’t hear from him,
and you shouldn’t,
because we can’t know who’s there if somebody answers.
Says who? Hmmm…I wonder who gave the 3 angels mentioned in the bible their names. I believe that Man gave them their names. I don’t recall God saying to Mary this is my angel Gabriel.
I pray to my guardian angel several times a day and I know for a fact he hears and answers me. The name I chose for my angel is neither female or male.
If you say we should not name our angel because we can’t know who’s there if somebody answers Does this pertain to our general prayers? In our prayers in asking and receiving? I pray to Jesus, he has a name. I pray to Mary she has a name. Will I not hear from Jesus or Mary, because I may not know who is listening and who will answer me? Seems to me if you have a deep faith and a deep trust YOU know who is there. I understand that evil can do all sorts of tricks, but it can’t do everything, also there is something called discernment and that helps allot.
Our Lady is a great protector of evil, who is Queen of Heaven and Earth. Who is the one that is very much afraid of her….Satan and his band of knuckle heads. Haven’t you ever prayed to Mary when you have been tempted or had feelings of being attacked by something evil? I have and prayed to our Blessed Mother and she has helped me each and every time.👍
 
Says who? Hmmm…I wonder who gave the 3 angels mentioned in the bible their names. I believe that Man gave them their names. I don’t recall God saying to Mary this is my angel Gabriel.
I pray to my guardian angel several times a day and I know for a fact he hears and answers me. The name I chose for my angel is neither female or male.
If you say we should not name our angel because we can’t know who’s there if somebody answers Does this pertain to our general prayers? In our prayers in asking and receiving? I pray to Jesus, he has a name. I pray to Mary she has a name. Will I not hear from Jesus or Mary, because I may not know who is listening and who will answer me? Seems to me if you have a deep faith and a deep trust YOU know who is there. I understand that evil can do all sorts of tricks, but it can’t do everything, also there is something called discernment and that helps allot.
Our Lady is a great protector of evil, who is Queen of Heaven and Earth. Who is the one that is very much afraid of her….Satan and his band of knuckle heads. Haven’t you ever prayed to Mary when you have been tempted or had feelings of being attacked by something evil? I have and prayed to our Blessed Mother and she has helped me each and every time.👍
With all due respect I don’t think it is a good idea to name your guardian angels.
 
There is no pain in Hell. Hell is merely a part of the universe where God doesn’t go. The ‘Pain’ we subscribe to believe in is due to Dante’s Divine Comedy. In it he describes that those in hell suffer according to the crime.
Sorry if this is totally off topic, but didn’t God make all the universe, every last little corner of it? So why is there a part he doesn’t go?
 
No angel has ever repented. They either remained in communion with God, or they chose to sin.
But did Lucifer rebel at the very beginning of the universe? my understanding was that he was a righteous angel at first for a while. So obviously he must have changed his mind at some point. And if he can change his mind once, why can’t he do so again?
 
Sorry if this is totally off topic, but didn’t God make all the universe, every last little corner of it? So why is there a part he doesn’t go?
Cirdan:

I agree with you. God is Infinite. Infinite means “everywhere, everywhen.” He doesn’t withdraw even a part of Himself as He has no parts. Angels and humans aren’t bubbles inside God either. We are configurations of dimensionless point particles that are immersed in Infinite Space, a.k.a., the Mind of God. This makes sense as God controls everything (except sin). See Space

God bless,
jd
 
But did Lucifer rebel at the very beginning of the universe? my understanding was that he was a righteous angel at first for a while. So obviously he must have changed his mind at some point. And if he can change his mind once, why can’t he do so again?
Cirdan:

Please re-read Post # 33.

God bless,
jd
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top