why can't another label be used for same sex marriage?

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Yes, because civil marriage is still marriage, and marriage is essential to family and civilization. Even religious marriage (except perhaps in France) is civil marriage, if it is recognized by the State.

When marriage devolves, so does family and society.
No, sacramental marriage is a lot more than civil marriage. It rises to the level of a sacrament. It’s not just a contract like civil marriage is, dependent only on the kindness and good will of the parties involved. Ahh. I understand what the confusion is now.

Yeah, there’s a lot we don’t agree on. But that’s okay, I don’t want to argue. I think your point of view is probably a whole lot more common among Catholics than I expected. I’m quite surprised, but it does explain a lot, now that I think of it. CAF is very informative at times.
 
Yes, because civil marriage is still marriage, and marriage is essential to family and civilization. Even religious marriage (except perhaps in France) is civil marriage, if it is recognized by the State.

When marriage devolves, so does family and society.
In the US, civil marriage and sacramental marriage occur simultaneously IF you are married in a Catholic Church, yes.
 
No, sacramental marriage is a lot more than civil marriage. It rises to the level of a sacrament. It’s not just a contract like civil marriage is, dependent only on the kindness and good will of the parties involved. Ahh. I understand what the confusion is now.

Yeah, there’s a lot we don’t agree on. But that’s okay, I don’t want to argue. I think your point of view is probably a whole lot more common among Catholics than I expected. I’m quite surprised, but it does explain a lot, now that I think of it. CAF is very informative at times.
Sure, sacramental marriage is a lot more than civil marriage, but sacramental marriage didn’t come into effect until the time of Christ. But marriage–civil or natural–has been with us since the dawn of humanity. And when marriage goes wrong, so does humanity.

I suppose the bottom line is, SSM proponents think it will be good or neutral in its effects. I think it will be bad–probably quite bad–in its effects.
 
Sure, sacramental marriage is a lot more than civil marriage, but sacramental marriage didn’t come into effect until the time of Christ. But marriage–civil or natural–has been with us since the dawn of humanity. And when marriage goes wrong, so does humanity.

I suppose the bottom line is, SSM proponents think it will be good or neutral in its effects. I think it will be bad–probably quite bad–in its effects.
That’s a sociological reason, yes.
 
I guess I should clarify my own thinking here. I don’t think it is SSM that leads to rising divorce rates. It’s more like the reverse. The decline of marriage and family begins long before same sex marriage is even considered an option. In that regard, same sex marriage is one of the last indicators of family collapse, not one of the first. It is preceded by widespread acceptance of contraception, acceptance of pre-marital and extramarital sex, approval of abortion, etc. Only when family decline is well under way does SSM come into the picture.

In that regard, Eberstadt’s book “Adam and Eve After the Pill,” does provide a wealth of data of the actual results flowing from the sexual revolution. That is a shorter time frame than Zimmerman is looking at in “Family and Civilization,” which covers thousands of years.
Regardless of where you put the legalization of SSM in the timeline of society’s collapse, you obviously feel there will be negative consequences (or else you wouldn’t care about the issue in that respect). And this returns to my earlier point - just what will these consequences be? Will they be new? Will they simply result in an accelerated decline that’s already under way?

There is a noted lack of specificity here on this particular issue, and this is quite relevant. Because your next task will be to illustrate the causal link (not merely the correlation) between SSM and these consequences. Something you obviously can’t be expected to do without making specific predictions about what those consequences will be.
 
That’s a sociological reason, yes.
I leave you two to hammer out the civil marriage thing and all of its gory or not-so-gory consequences. The politics of civil marriage is not something I’m very interested in. Have a great night.
 
I try to be open minded about this, but why can’t a union between homosexuals be called something else besides marriage? Most people in this type of a relationship say it is for financial reasons, that they have the same rights as hetero people regarding this and that’s why they want to get married. What happened to the phrase civil union? Why is the word marriage so important for homosexuals?
It is very misleading to use marriage because as a Catholic, you are considered married when it is by a priest.
I am not asking to start a big debate-but if the word marriage causes so much conflict in this, why not change the label? Perhaps common law partner or something --that way they still get the financial things and the word marriage can be removed from this.
Here are some labels they can use, instead of marriage- “Living in sin”, “Living in sodomy”, “Living in an unnatural relationship”, “A couple of peverts”.
 
Regardless of where you put the legalization of SSM in the timeline of society’s collapse, you obviously feel there will be negative consequences (or else you wouldn’t care about the issue in that respect). And this returns to my earlier point - just what will these consequences be? Will they be new? Will they simply result in an accelerated decline that’s already under way?

There is a noted lack of specificity here on this particular issue, and this is quite relevant. Because your next task will be to illustrate the causal link (not merely the correlation) between SSM and these consequences. Something you obviously can’t be expected to do without making specific predictions about what those consequences will be.
No, that’s not my next task. Carle Zimmerman has analyzed past civilizational trends, and Mary Eberstadt has analyzed the results of the sexual revolution. I’m not writing a book, and I’m not predicting specific futures. There are plenty of books which have done that. (Try Morris Berman’s “Twilight of American Culture,” for one.)

I’m not in the business of predicting the future. The past won’t repeat exactly, but I haven’t the slightest doubt that we are past the midline of a downward trend. My next task is to survive the coming chaos unless I die first.
 
No, that’s not my next task. Carle Zimmerman has analyzed past civilizational trends, and Mary Eberstadt has analyzed the results of the sexual revolution. I’m not writing a book, and I’m not predicting specific futures. There are plenty of books which have done that. (Try Morris Berman’s “Twilight of American Culture,” for one.)

I’m not in the business of predicting the future. The past won’t repeat exactly, but I haven’t the slightest doubt that we are past the midline of a downward trend. My next task is to survive the coming chaos unless I die first.
But what chaos?

Do you not see how odd it is to be advocating against a particular social position when you can’t even begin to predict how that social position would effect society?
 
But what chaos?

Do you not see how odd it is to be advocating against a particular social position when you can’t even begin to predict how that social position would effect society?
Even if a prophet(ess) from God came and precisely predicted the outcome would you believe him/her? I am not clear exactly what you are asking, why you are and what difference it would make anyway. It wouldn’t be falsifiable until it actually transpired and then too late anyway. So what would be the point except as a speculation exercise that would make no effective difference in any case?
 
I certainly believe in the tenets of Catholic moral theology, and I’m sure that disregarding moral law has bad consequences.

But I don’t oppose same sex marriage because it violates Catholic moral law. I oppose it because it violates common sense and further contributes to the decline of family structure, which in turn contributes to a host of social ills–and those all have severe civil consequences.

As I said before, I don’t blame SSM for beginning the deconstruction of society; that’s already been happening for awhile. I oppose it as a further step along the way to social collapse.
Thank you for a succinct and clear assessment.

It sums up my position, as well, though without my inflammatory rhetoric.
 
Even if a prophet(ess) from God came and precisely predicted the outcome would you believe him/her? I am not clear exactly what you are asking, why you are and what difference it would make anyway. It wouldn’t be falsifiable until it actually transpired and then too late anyway. So what would be the point except as a speculation exercise that would make no effective difference in any case?
Imagine that, for all of human history, the concept of Divorce had never existed. People got married, and stayed married, no matter what. To effectively abandon your spouse was a crime, punishable by imprisonment.

Now imagine that somebody concocts the idea of a legalized dissolution of civil marriage. Expensive perhaps, but anyone who wants to end their marriage, for whatever reason, need only hire a lawyer and get it taken care of through the courts.

Now, my point is not to equate this with the current push to legalize gay marriage as a good idea or a bad idea. My point is that, for whatever side of the Divorce Debate you think you’d find yourself on, you’d be able to argue for your position on basis of potential consequences of allowing legalized divorce. Somebody for it might argue that allowing divorce would allow abused wives to get away from their abusive partner. People against it might argue that allowing divorce would hopelessly clog our court system. And if people can divorce for any reason, won’t they take less care in deciding whom and when to marry?

Nobody would know what the consequences of legalized divorce until it had transpired, and it was too late, but this would stop nobody from offering reasonable, rational thoughts on the possible consequences, before the fact.

This is all I’m asking for here. Give me an argument that deals with potential real-world consequences of legalized SSM, and that doesn’t make me feel like I’m losing IQ points by reading it. Don’t tell me that SSM will lead to more straight divorce. Don’t tell me that it will make fewer straight couples get married. Don’t tell me it will make those straight couples have fewer children. And don’t tell me that SSM will lead to more STD cases. Not unless you’re prepared to illustrate a direct-line connection between SSM and these things that’s actually causal and not just laying one set of numbers over another and claiming that one is causing the other.

Assuming that I’m just too skeptical to believe in any specific attempt at an argument is just a dodge. Try me.
 
Assuming that I’m just too skeptical to believe in any specific attempt at an argument is just a dodge. Try me.
At the risk of being responsible for lowering your IQ by twenty points, here goes…

My first encounter with scientific research on same sex behaviour was in the early 1980s before the heightened awareness of “gay” rights. It was a paper researching the effects of stress on lab mice. I do not remember any specific details, but the findings have stuck with me since. Frequency of “same sex” behaviour was highly correlated to deprivation. When mice were deprived of food, water, social interactions or other conditions, there occurred statistically significant increases in attempts of sexual engagement targeting other mice of the same sex.

Extrapolating these findings to the current human situation it may be worth considering that gender “confusion” may be a symptom of a larger social phenomenon, perhaps stemming from a kind of despair about the future of humanity within social consciousness.

Given the far more expansive scope of problems facing the human race: global warming, nuclear holocaust, weapons of mass destruction, a breakdown of security, overpopulation, shortage of resources, etc. the level of despair or hopelessness among human beings would seem to be very high in the present. Following the experiments on the mice, there could be a biological response being triggered by the stresses of modern times that are producing something like the stress responses in the mice.

This makes sense for a number of reasons:
  1. The biggest moral issues are about the non-existence of future humans (abortion, contraception, gay sex)
  2. These same moral issues have a feature of “rebellion” built into them. A kind of deliberate opposition or taking control over the natural order surrounding procreation because it has become such a troublesome and seemingly unsolvable moral morass.
  3. Gay marriage, precisely because it is non-procreative, is seen as a kind of moral alternative to procreative marriage. That is, same sex couples are “completely free” to engage in sexual behaviour without the possibility of being “burdened” by creating a new human being.
  4. The natural inclination of human beings to will their own existence to be extended into the future through having children has been dealt a crippling blow by the startling realization that the future is increasingly becoming fraught with concerns about generating new life that will have to face such an uncertain future.
  5. Moral relativism has mushroomed as the dominant belief system in just the past 20 years. It is not a “we’re in this together” and “rules should apply to all” kind of thinking any more, it is “do whatever you think is right because no one has an answer” that has come to predominate. This makes a great deal of sense to a rational egoism that is convinced the ship is about to sink.
Based on the above considerations, it might be reasonable to predict that same sex unions will rise precipitously over the next 10 years, if the global situation stays negative or gets worse, but may decrease slightly or decline if perceptions about the future improve.

My theory is that same sex attraction is not fundamentally a choice, nor an orientation, but a deep psychological response to overwhelming stress or angst concerning future existence. It is an irrational flight to pleasure brought about by the frustration of envisioning no positive alternative to the biological impulse to procreate. It is the previously described experiment with mice, but happening on a global scale with human beings. The results are startlingly similar.

As such, perhaps it should not be accepted as merely a choice or orientation, but more as a symptom of a deeply unconscious, but socially generated, reaction to a despairing future.

Thoughts? Or have you been reduced to having the IQ of a vegetable?
 
In response to the OP:

A couple reasons why homosexuals would prefer civil marriages over civil unions are:
1 Civil unions don’t have all of the benefits of a civil marriage.

2 A motivating factor behind people supporting civil unions for same-sex couples instead of civil marriages tends to be to present those unions as having less value than other relationships. After all, you probably wouldn’t like it if you were in a Muslim country where the state only allowed you and your spouse to be in a civil union, not civil marriage, simply because you and your spouse are Catholics, therefore the state doesn’t want you to use a word they think should only be used for a relationship between two Muslims.
 
At the risk of being responsible for lowering your IQ by twenty points, here goes…

My first encounter with scientific research on same sex behaviour was in the early 1980s before the heightened awareness of “gay” rights. It was a paper researching the effects of stress on lab mice. I do not remember any specific details, but the findings have stuck with me since. Frequency of “same sex” behaviour was highly correlated to deprivation. When mice were deprived of food, water, social interactions or other conditions, there occurred statistically significant increases in attempts of sexual engagement targeting other mice of the same sex.

Extrapolating these findings to the current human situation it may be worth considering that gender “confusion” may be a symptom of a larger social phenomenon, perhaps stemming from a kind of despair about the future of humanity within social consciousness.

Given the far more expansive scope of problems facing the human race: global warming, nuclear holocaust, weapons of mass destruction, a breakdown of security, overpopulation, shortage of resources, etc. the level of despair or hopelessness among human beings would seem to be very high in the present. Following the experiments on the mice, there could be a biological response being triggered by the stresses of modern times that are producing something like the stress responses in the mice.

This makes sense for a number of reasons:
  1. The biggest moral issues are about the non-existence of future humans (abortion, contraception, gay sex)
  2. These same moral issues have a feature of “rebellion” built into them. A kind of deliberate opposition or taking control over the natural order surrounding procreation because it has become such a troublesome and seemingly unsolvable moral morass.
  3. Gay marriage, precisely because it is non-procreative, is seen as a kind of moral alternative to procreative marriage. That is, same sex couples are “completely free” to engage in sexual behaviour without the possibility of being “burdened” by creating a new human being.
  4. The natural inclination of human beings to will their own existence to be extended into the future through having children has been dealt a crippling blow by the startling realization that the future is increasingly becoming fraught with concerns about generating new life that will have to face such an uncertain future.
  5. Moral relativism has mushroomed as the dominant belief system in just the past 20 years. It is not a “we’re in this together” and “rules should apply to all” kind of thinking any more, it is “do whatever you think is right because no one has an answer” that has come to predominate. This makes a great deal of sense to a rational egoism that is convinced the ship is about to sink.
Based on the above considerations, it might be reasonable to predict that same sex unions will rise precipitously over the next 10 years, if the global situation stays negative or gets worse, but may decrease slightly or decline if perceptions about the future improve.

My theory is that same sex attraction is not fundamentally a choice, nor an orientation, but a deep psychological response to overwhelming stress or angst concerning future existence. It is an irrational flight to pleasure brought about by the frustration of envisioning no positive alternative to the biological impulse to procreate. It is the previously described experiment with mice, but happening on a global scale with human beings. The results are startlingly similar.

As such, perhaps it should not be accepted as merely a choice or orientation, but more as a symptom of a deeply unconscious, but socially generated, reaction to a despairing future.

Thoughts? Or have you been reduced to having the IQ of a vegetable?
Plato,

As a person that spent time studying animal studies I realized that they do not extrapolate to human experience. Nice Try however in consideration that food and water helped the mice I suggest that at least no attempt be made to deprive same sex people of food and water.🙂
 
**Imagine that, **for all of human history, the concept of Divorce had never existed. People got married, and stayed married, no matter what. To effectively abandon your spouse was a crime, punishable by imprisonment.

Now imagine that somebody concocts the idea of a legalized dissolution of civil marriage. Expensive perhaps, but anyone who wants to end their marriage, for whatever reason, need only hire a lawyer and get it taken care of through the courts.

Now, my point is not to equate this with the current push to legalize gay marriage as a good idea or a bad idea. My point is that, for whatever side of the Divorce Debate you think you’d find yourself on, you’d be able to argue for your position on basis of potential consequences of allowing legalized divorce. Somebody for it might argue that allowing divorce would allow abused wives to get away from their abusive partner. People against it might argue that allowing divorce would hopelessly clog our court system. And if people can divorce for any reason, won’t they take less care in deciding whom and when to marry?

Nobody would know what the consequences of legalized divorce until it had transpired, and it was too late, but this would stop nobody from offering reasonable, rational thoughts on the possible consequences, before the fact.

This is all I’m asking for here. Give me an argument that deals with potential real-world consequences of legalized SSM, and that doesn’t make me feel like I’m losing IQ points by reading it. Don’t tell me that SSM will lead to more straight divorce. Don’t tell me that it will make fewer straight couples get married. Don’t tell me it will make those straight couples have fewer children. And don’t tell me that SSM will lead to more STD cases. Not unless you’re prepared to illustrate a direct-line connection between SSM and these things that’s actually causal and not just laying one set of numbers over another and claiming that one is causing the other.

Assuming that I’m just too skeptical to believe in any specific attempt at an argument is just a dodge. Try me.
Giants,

Imagine there no heaven, it’s easy if you can
Imagine there’s no hunger a fellowship of man

Imagine all the people realize that Same Sex marriage is a non-sequitor that invites discussion into an imagined reality and to discuss imagined reality is to discount reality and that is the answer to an imagined argument…beware the Jaberwok my son its twillig tail goes snipper snap…off with their heads…imagine that.
 
You guys are all arguing about the concept of civil marriage. This is not necessarily sacramental marriage you’re talking about. There is a difference, you know. You do realize that, I hope.
There’s a difference, but it’s not a chasm between the two.

Marriage is either valid or it is not. Anyone (non-Catholic and Catholic alike) can contract a valid marriage.

Any valid marriage between two baptized people is automatically a sacramental marriage. Two baptized non-Catholics marrying in a civil ceremony before a Justice of the Peace would be entering aq valid, sacramental marriage.

If we start purporting that a civil marriage is different in essence, we’ve already lost the debate.
 
What this argument basically boil down to is “It’s not fair for married people to get tax breaks that other people don’t get.” I disagree.
Not only is it fair it is justice. Unequals ought to be treated unequally. Marriage is not like other relationships. It is not like a brother and sister or two men or a mother and daughter, or best friends, or anything else. This is lost on a culture that only values emotionalism.
 
I try to be open minded about this, but why can’t a union between homosexuals be called something else besides marriage?
Changing the words used does not change the essence of the situation. Simply using other words cannot make legitimate that which is illegitimate.

There are plenty of legal devices that can be contrived to facilitate transfer of property and all that. That is available right now. That is not the issue at all.
 
Plato,

As a person that spent time studying animal studies I realized that they do not extrapolate to human experience. Nice Try however in consideration that food and water helped the mice I suggest that at least no attempt be made to deprive same sex people of food and water.🙂
I am not saying same sex attraction comes about as the result of deprivation of food and water, what I am suggesting is that it is a response to psycho-social stresses on the human physiology that play a role akin to that of deprivation of food, water, etc. does to mice. The stressors are much more complex but the overwhelming nature of an anxiety producing and despair ridden future could be the underlying “cause” of sexual behavior that has “gone off the rails” in terms of its natural purpose. Those factors are not so easy to reintroduce to the “mice” in this case.

Why would human beings engage in behavior that is non-productive, highly stimulating and contrary to an incredibly powerful normal urge to produce and protect young if no “significant” reason for that departure exists? Biology does not work that way in terms of attempting to explain behavior. It seems to me that genetics and choice have been presented as possible causes, but are both inadequate. That leaves the field open for other possibilities. I don’t think we can be content with, “it’s just that way.” That has never been a justification to leave off attempting to understand any condition.

This third possibility exists to explain same sex attraction and behavior: that it is a response to conditions in the environment. In this case, I am proposing that it is an overwhelming despair or anxiety about the future existence of the human species, but it may be something else or in combination. That would mean this behavior is in some sense a “normal” response to abnormal conditions, and that premise changes how we attempt to understand the atypical nature of the behavior. What does it tell us about the human psyche, why it is being affected by these factors and why it is responding, sexually, in a manner that diverges from the expected and natural biological goal of procreation?

As such it should be regarded, not as a condition to be treated or accepted, but as a symptom arising from other, more troubling factors. After all, if any biological species started to demonstrate behaviors that were contrary to normal survival mechanisms we would begin to ask why.

I realize some will add that homosexual behavior has occurred in the past among animals, so therefore it is normal. However, that is beside the point. The behavior may have been a coping mechanism in the face of extreme stress, so while normal in the sense that it is a mechanism that shows up with some frequency, its connection to abnormal environmental conditions should not be left unexplored. If abnormal sexual behavior serves as a red flag warning that environmental factors have been determined by the biological species to be beyond its ability to cope normally, we ought not disregard that flag and just accept it as normal. That would be imprudent, given that its purpose might very well be to wake us up about what is happening in the human social, political or natural environment.

We may very well be shortsighted in how we are looking at this issue. If that is the case, merely listening to those encountering or been afflicted with the symptoms may not be the way to build an accurate profile because those afflicted would not be in a position to provide a balanced perspective about their symptoms since they are the very individuals so afflicted.

A alien researchers from another planet, witnessing that the sexual behavior of some humans diverges from the normal procreative and survival purpose to which it has evolved would surely ask why some individuals do not behave as expected with regard to sexual matters. Wouldn’t they ask, “Why?” to be rigorous in their method and inquiry? Yet here we are dismissing the question completely. Possibly to our peril as a species.

To those, like Julia Mae, who continue to cite anthropological sources to prove the normalcy of same sex behavior, the overriding question would be to ask if anthropologists can provide important data in terms of why this behavior keeps occurring in human history and in response to what common factors.

Treating same sex behavior as “normal” may be analogous to closing one’s ears and singing, “la la la.” The same-sex “patient” should not be considered authoritative in terms of providing his own diagnosis of the problem, just as an alcoholic should not be trusted when they deny having an addiction to their drink of choice.

This issue needs to be treated with scientific neutrality and thoroughness, not turning a blind eye. Alcoholism, pedophilia and addiction to sexual urges are all properly considered manifestations of deeper psycho social issues. Same sex attraction has not proven itself not to be a similar “kind” of condition regardless of what those so “afflicted” declare. We would not accept that as a justification for alcoholism, why should we accept it here?

Giant, I am, therefore, putting your question back to you. Perhaps it isn’t only a question of proving that same sex behavior is harmful or beneficial to human survival, but rather one of demonstrating that it is not a symptom and response to deeper psycho-social issues. Your stance may be ignoring that possibility by putting the onus in the wrong place. The reason we shouldn’t just “tolerate” same sex behavior and legalize a redefinition of marriage is precisely because we don’t understand the root causes and we may be ignoring those to our peril as a species. Legalizing it is the equivalent of pretending “everything is fine” with our social structure when in fact, everything is not fine and here is the symptom that demonstrates that.
 
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