Why can't Dalai Lama be reincarnated as woman?

[notself]

Montalban;

Show that this would have been the case. (and I’m not Catholic). It is you guys, especially Fa Chan who have put forward that the reason he keeps coming back is to save/guide the most souls/people, and you’ve shown no evidence of this, other than to repeat that this must have been the case. The whole premise is based on a just-so argument.

I am not a Tibetan Buddhist nor is Fa Chan. Neither of our traditions believes in reincarnation of a “self” We believe in rebirth of a sub-conscious life energy with no self attached. Both of us were trying to explain what we understood about Tibetan Buddhism which is quite different from the Traditions we follow. So if you want more information, then you need to do your own research.

However now you seem to imply that not only can he put off his own incarnations, and where he is going to be reincarnated, but he’s also able to ascertain what will happen in the future, and position himself in such a place that will recoup the most followers - even though he’s not evidenced this so far by spending generations in Tibet - a hermit kingdom

I have never said any of these things. You are either misinterpreting what a said or are just looking for an argument. I merely gave my understanding of what Tibetan Buddhists believe. You need to argue with a Tibetan Buddhist. Just Google “Tibetan Buddhist forum” and you should find plenty to argue with or to respectfully ask questions.

Well
a) you assume that because they traded with the outside, they weren’t a hermit nation - yet trade is not the same as missionary work
and
b) they were a hermit country, because they banned foreigners from Tibet.

By modern analogy even North Korea ‘trades’ with other nations, but has vast restrictions on the dissemination of information to and from it. For you, simply by virtue of a trickle of trade North Korea’s not an isolated nation!

If it pleases you for some reason to think of a country as being a hermit nation because they don’t send out missionaries and banned westerners from their land, then fine, use that as your definition.

Certainly by 1774-75, George Bogle of the East India Company spent the winter months at Tibet’s Tashilhunpo monastery in the Himalayan Mountains with the Panchen Lama. However Tibet closed itself off to the British in India.

Tibet was known to the Europeans in India. But there was no ‘open door’ by Tibet. It was happy being cut-off from them.

Tibet was a hermit country. Did you not even see this in the film “Seven Years in Tibet”; only two westerners in the whole nation in 1943, and they were repeatedly forced back by border guards. How many were enjoying Tibet when China invaded?

You can hardly blame the Tibetans for being suspicious of foreigners. After all it was the British who forced the opium trade on China thereby addicting untold numbers and ruining entire families. Hardly a humanitarian track record in India either.

Because he’s limiting his incarnations to a male. He must (according to you) have a reason for staying male, if he’s able to control his incarnations.

That’s a different debate. I know you’re hankering to divert this debate onto an examination of Christianity.

No, it is the same debate, because it is a similar situation with the same result. God incarnated into a male. The Bodhisattva of Compassion reincarnated into a male. If you won’t answer about Christ’s incarnation, why do you expect me to answer a question about the Dalai Lama’s reincarnation?

If I wanted to debate Christianity, I would do so directly.

I’ve already done this. I’ve asked how is it he’s seemingly able to control his incarnations, yet repeatedly comes back as a guy in Tibet, in the same position

.

In my tradition, the dying person contimplates his or her life and the teachings of the Buddha. This focus is to calm the mind before death. There is no direct control of rebirth let alone contol of one’s sex. If you read my post I was speaking of preparation for death and that to *some extent *all Buddhists attempt to prepare for death. Elimination of fear makes the transition easier. As for Tibetans, try asking the question of a Tibetan Buddhist.

 

[notself]

Why’s it not happened so far? It was Fa Chan’s contention that the Dalai Lama puts off Niravana in order to help the most people - and as I pointed out, locking oneself up in a hermit kingdom for most of his incarnations doesn’t seem to prove this.

Here is a link to the Bodhisattva Vow in Tibetan Buddhism. I regret that I cannot answer questions on this because, there is no such vow in my tradition.

buddhism.kalachakranet.org/resources/bodhisattva_vows.html

 

[chicago]

He has the ability to reach enlightenment and is guaranteed enlightenment in the future. He makes the decision, however, as a bodhisattva, to come back again and again to this world to help lead others to enlightenment. He is said to be the reincarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, who is the bodhisattva of compassion. Compassion=delayed enlightenment=reincarnation.

Peace…

Fa Chan

I find that concept fascinating. Sort of a “merciful, condescending” Christ figure, in some lesser sense.

 

[MarysRoses]

I thought I would post some observations, just to add to the discussion a bit.

I am currently a practicing Catholic. In my past however, I have spent several years living at a tibetan temple and practicing tibetan buddhism. My experiences were positive and I have nothing bad to say about them. Its interesting that while practicing buddhism I gained the spiritual insight necessary to answer my questions and objections to Christianity, and was able to return to being Catholic, with my Lama’s blessing.

There is no sense of competition, or that I am somehow a ‘failure’ because I no longer identify myself as a Buddhist. I’m sharing this to emphasize that there is a huge cultural and philosophical gap between the two traditions, which make it difficult to discuss as sometimes even the same words do not mean the same thing to both parties.

Anyway… some points I think have been overlooked in this thread…

Reincarnation is a western term which is very misleading when describing the Dalai Lama, or any instance of ‘reincarnation’ associated with Tibetan Buddhism. What is ‘reincarnated’ is not a ‘person’ in the western sense of the word. I think most people here have the perception that the same ‘person’ has been reborn, over and over (fourteen times in the instance of HHDL).

This is the source of a lot of the confusion on this thread. What we call a ‘person’ is not an indivisible unit in buddhist thought. A ‘person’ is a collection of several different ‘collections’ . Usually listed as body, speech, mind, breath etc … even these components can be further broken down… etc. In sanskrit the term is skanda, which means something like ‘heaps’. Another critical missunderstanding is that ‘mind’ to a buddhist, does not mean thoughts. There is a quality of mind, or the true nature of mind, which does continue past death, but this would not be the day to day thoughts and memories of the ‘person’.

At the death of an ordinary person, these skandas are scattered.
After rebirth, they may or may not be recombined in a similar (never exact) way (this is where karma comes in, but thats another discussion). There is not even an expectation that there will be a human rebirth. A human birth is considered rare and precious.

At the death of a dharma practitioner with some accomplishment, the skandas are scattered, but there is an expectation it will be less random. The dharma practitioner by the good karma accumulated through their lifetime of practice, expects a rebirth in human form, in circumstances that allow for practicing the dharma (teachings). They expect enough continuity with past lives to allow them to continue their spiritual progress. Again though, future lifetimes are not the same ‘person’ as we understand the term. It is the prayer though, of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners, that they will be reborn where they can practice with their Lama again.

(cont next post)

 

[MarysRoses]

(Cont. from previous post)

The rebirth of the Dalai Lama is similar to the above, but very different at the same time. He is thought to be an emanation (this is a preferable term over reincarnation) of Avalokitesvara, the Buddha of Compassion. Chenrezig in Tibetan. This is not the same as the historical Buddha who lived his last human lifetime as Prince Siddhartha, often another misconception. Refering to Chenrezig, both Buddha and Boddhisattva are used in literature. A Buddha is a fully enlightened being, who is beyond conceptual thought and as such takes no active role in human affairs. A Boddhisattva is a being who has stepped back just short of full enlightenment, to assist beings still trapped in cyclic existence. The Boddhisattva vow mentioned in previous posts does not describe a Boddhisattva, it describes the actions of a person aspiring to be a Boddhisattva. A Boddhisattva in Buddhist thinking can take limitless actions to fit circumstances to fulfill the purpose of helping others. The limitless nature of enlightened mind also means that there is no limitation on the number and kind of emanations of the Boddhisattva.

So the OP was why can’t the Dalai Lama be reincarnated as a woman. The answer is that he could. Historically, the role of the Dalai Lama was such culturally that a woman could not fulfill that role, so it didn’t happen.

But to a Buddhist, the Boddhisattva of Compassion is not limited to the Dalai Lama. That is only one of literally infinite emanations. There is actually, a feminine embodiment of Avalokitesvara, - Kuan Yin.

As someone linked, the current Dalai Lama is open to the idea that his office in the future might be filled by election instead of a search for a child. He is open to the idea that it may be filled by someone not born in Tibet, or even by a non-ethnically Tibetan person, or even a woman. Any of that could happen and the office would still be valid. As the Chinese government tries to insert itself into the process, the chances of the Dalai Lama lineage continuing as it had in the past are slim to none.

The child identified by the Dalai Lama as the Panchen Lama, traditionally the Lama who led the search and Identification of the new Dalai Lama was kidnapped and disappeared, and his fate is unknown. So an essential link in the traditional succession is missing.

Hopefully, this helps answer the OP and increases understanding between religious traditions and cultures. I am not in favor of syncretism and only consider myself at this time a faithful Catholic. I do remember my Buddhist friends and teachers with great fondness.

MarysRoses (aka Karma Rangjun Drolma)

 

[notself]

Thank you for posting this, MarysRoses. It helped clear up some of my confusion about the beliefs of Tibetan Buddhsits.

You are the second Tibetan Buddhist who has converted or gone back to Catholicism that I know. Many Catholics have taken Refuge in Buddhism. It seems that Catholics are more willing to explore things than some other Christian traditions.

 

[Montalban]

So the OP was why can’t the Dalai Lama be reincarnated as a woman. The answer is that he could. Historically, the role of the Dalai Lama was such culturally that a woman could not fulfill that role, so it didn’t happen.

So he’s dependant upon culture?

 

[MarysRoses]

So he’s dependant upon culture?

The point is service. If a person needs a hammer, handing him a spoon isn’t going to be of much help.

MarysRoses

 

[Montalban]

The point is service. If a person needs a hammer, handing him a spoon isn’t going to be of much help.

MarysRoses

No. The point is that the Dalai Lama’s supposed to be able to control his incarnations and come back as the next Dalai Lama.

Suddenly they put forward that the next one can be chosen by vote.

This means either
a) that the incarnation is now determined by the people voting
or
b) that the Dalai Lama still has the power to choose, and therefore the offer of voting is a sham.

 

[notself]

No. The point is that the Dalai Lama’s supposed to be able to control his incarnations and come back as the next Dalai Lama.

Suddenly they put forward that the next one can be chosen by vote.

This means either
a) that the incarnation is now determined by the people voting
or
b) that the Dalai Lama still has the power to choose, and therefore the offer of voting is a sham.

I believe he was speaking of the political role of the Dalai Lama has the head of Tibet in Exile. That is why I gave you the link to the government site.

 

[Ginger2]

Let me share a little background before asking a related question.

The Beatles followed the dalai lama, but Paul M. lost “faith” because the dalai was sleeping around with all the young dollies!

My question: How is promiscuity and taking advantage of young impressionable girls help one to become enlightened?

Or Maybe God used the dalai lama to plant a seed of enlightenment in Paul M. I pray that is so. I’d like to see Paul in heaven.

 

[notself]

Let me share a little background before asking a related question.

The Beatles followed the dalai lama, but Paul M. lost “faith” because the dalai was sleeping around with all the young dollies!

My question: How is promiscuity and taking advantage of young impressionable girls help one to become enlightened?

Or Maybe God used the dalai lama to plant a seed of enlightenment in Paul M. I pray that is so. I’d like to see Paul in heaven.

George Harrrison practiced Hinduism and followed a teacher called, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The Maharishi helped George to give up drugs. Indian music had a great influence on some of the Beatles music during this time. Non of the Beatles ever practiced Buddhism.

Perhaps you can provid a source for your strange opinion.

By the way, I don’t believe that Paul was ever a Catholic.

 

[Idahown]

Reincarnates believe they grow in knowledge w/”enlightenment” although we cannot remember our past lives. Albeit, there are an insignificant few saying they do remember.

Please note: I am not saying reincarnates are insignificant, but that the extremely limited number of people who say they remember their past lives, is as significant, as a group of crazies saying people are blue.

If you still believe in the Bible, Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

 

[Fa_Chan]

What I have taken away from this thread is that there really is no point to it, except to use it as an argument against the Buddhist faith. And while answers have been given, the OP doesn’t like them, distorts them and attacks the responders by attempting public humiliation and endless regurgitation of meaningless questions.

The whole idea of reincarnation or rebirth, the bodhisattva ideal and other Buddhist concepts must be taken as a system of thought and meshed together instead of taking one aspect of it and trying to understand the whole from that one piece. The OP has been given links to various websites to explain these things.

It’s a shame that I ever wasted my time trying to help a person who wanted to know (according to the title) why the Dalai Lama is reincarnated as a man. Now that I think about it I can’t imagine why it’s so important for the OP to be concerned about a political and religious leader of a different faith than he is and the gender of said person.

I think if I spent that much time on say, pondering why Jesus Christ as the Son of God (which he is) was born as a male instead of a female in Bethlehem and being raised in Nazareth then I have way too much time on my hands. I would liken it to OCD “obsessive compulsive disorder”.

Now, feel free to bash me and humiliate me as you wish

*Disclaimer: the actions of this Buddhist does not constitute the expressed opinion or actions of the Buddhist community whatsoever. Any statements made by the author must be taken for what they are…the delusions of a finite being with multitude afflictions that he is working hard to overcome. *

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Fa_Chan]

Let me share a little background before asking a related question.

The Beatles followed the dalai lama, but Paul M. lost “faith” because the dalai was sleeping around with all the young dollies!

Do you have evidence of this accusation?

My question: How is promiscuity and taking advantage of young impressionable girls help one to become enlightened?

Or Maybe God used the dalai lama to plant a seed of enlightenment in Paul M. I pray that is so. I’d like to see Paul in heaven.

Never heard this kind of stuff before. Every day I wonder what in the world people are thinking and then I remember that I’m one too.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[notself]

Never heard this kind of stuff before. Every day I wonder what in the world people are thinking and then I remember that I’m one too.

Peace…

Fa Chan

In my personal experience, people who are weak in their own faith, like to make untrue negative comments about other faiths. Perhaps in some twisted way it gives them more confidence in their beliefs. It is really very sad.

Of course this type of falsehood (making things up about other religions) would be considered by Buddhists to be a serious breach of Right Speech.

It is also a breach of the teachings of the Catholic Church in Noasta Aetate:

In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship…

Impelled by such love for our brothers, let us consider with great diligence views and doctrines which, though in many points are different from ours, in so many others, however, carry the ray of that truth which gives light to every person born into this world.

 

[Fa_Chan]

Interfaith dialogue is so important in the world we live in now. There is so much hate and violence and mistrust among people. It’s sad that we find things of others to point out but fail to see the beam in our own eye (and I put myself in that category).

Our intentions must be pure and without malice. As notself has pointed out, our speech should meet some requirements as Buddhists. We must speak at the right time, with the right intent and with love.

Peace…

Fa Chan

 

[Ginger2]

I need to apologize to everyone on this thread for my careless and insensitive comment. I am sorry.

I watched a documentary on the life of the Beatles awhile back, and that is where I got the info. This was just one of the religions investigated by the Beatles.

I have never researched it myself so I had no right to comment.

However, I have studied several religions. What it has taught me is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one and only true God - the only God able to give us eternal life.

Example: Muslims believe Mohammad was a direct descendent of Kedar who was the first born of Ishmael, Abraham’s first born. Yet, the Koran never mentions Kedar, not once. Instead it repeatedly reads: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac Jacob and Jacob’s twelve sons. I say the Koran points to the Christian Bible as the true word of God. Every religion I have studied (because someone wants to convert me) points back to Christ.

Again, I do apologize, and before I comment on this topic in the future, I will research it and have a solid basis expressing my observations.

One final word. Do not hold my comments against the Catholics. I am not a Catholic.

 

[notself]

Again, I do apologize, and before I comment on this topic in the future, I will research it and have a solid basis expressing my observations.

One final word. Do not hold my comments against the Catholics. I am not a Catholic.

Thank you for your words. We all have been there, believing a rumor without checking it out. We all have to learn this lesson the hard way. I know I have.

May you be well and happy.
notself

 

[Fa_Chan]

I need to apologize to everyone on this thread for my careless and insensitive comment. I am sorry.

I watched a documentary on the life of the Beatles awhile back, and that is where I got the info. This was just one of the religions investigated by the Beatles.

I have never researched it myself so I had no right to comment.

However, I have studied several religions. What it has taught me is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one and only true God - the only God able to give us eternal life.

Example: Muslims believe Mohammad was a direct descendent of Kedar who was the first born of Ishmael, Abraham’s first born. Yet, the Koran never mentions Kedar, not once. Instead it repeatedly reads: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac Jacob and Jacob’s twelve sons. I say the Koran points to the Christian Bible as the true word of God. Every religion I have studied (because someone wants to convert me) points back to Christ.

Again, I do apologize, and before I comment on this topic in the future, I will research it and have a solid basis expressing my observations.

One final word. Do not hold my comments against the Catholics. I am not a Catholic.

Ginger,

No apology needed. I was just curious as to the source. You have a humble spirit which I should try to emulate. I suppose I feel the need to defend His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I shouldn’t feel that need because it is an attachment, but I do. Though he is not my Buddhist leader, he is the Buddhist I admire most. I love his humility, his smile which warms my heart and his great sense of humor.

I don’t hold anything against anyone. I respect Catholicism and the people who practice it. I would never judge that faith by the actions of one or many. While I do not share your beliefs in God as He is commonly pictured in monotheism I respect Him greatly and the people who call upon him. I was once a Christian and also respect Jesus Christ immensely. He was and is a great person who helped many, many people.

I wish you peace and many years of blessings. May you continue in your faith and be strong in it. Do not be too hard on yourself. :hug3:

Peace…

Fa Chan