Why can't liberal gay activists see that we would leave them alone if they would stop attacking the Catholic Church?

[CopticChristian]

Oh, it’s within their legal right to, yes. This is a democracy. If you believe your country should be a Christian theocracy, you are welcome to believe that. I, however, am allowed to believe that such a view is harmful and wrong.

Regular,

Protestants believe in imposing a Theocracy, this is called Dominionism.

Veritatis Splendor, as I recall, outlines what is called “A Participatory Theonomy”.

Ok

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Regular,

Protestants believe in imposing a Theocracy, this is called Dominionism.

Veritatis Splendor, as I recall, outlines what is called “A Participatory Theonomy”.

Ok

Sure. But the example I gave was the Catholic church trying to enforce religious beliefs onto an issue that should have been completely secular. Notice that the consulation would not have affected religious organisations at all:

homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/consultations/equal-civil-marriage/

I would like to note that, if Gay Activists started campaigning to have same-sex marriage forced on religious groups, I would oppose it. That wouldn’t be fair at all.

 

[atheistgirl]

Here’s an idea:

No No No, I’ve got it - here’s a much better idea.

Ignore

Sarah x

 

[Stephen168]

How could they possibly give a presentation, then ask a bunch of 11 year olds to sign a petition against homosexual marriage when no 11 year old could possibly know their mind on such issues since they aren’t mature enough

If that’s not indoctrination and bullying, I don’t know what it

One man’s indoctrination

They are free to assess the information for themselves of course, and they are free to decide not to accept the instruction. There may be a penalty attached to this refusal, such as prison, if they chose not to accept that theft is a crime, and the reasons why.

Is another man’s education

Perhaps not in those words, but the fact remains, the parents give the children the information or ‘instruction’ if you prefer, and the children, as in above, are free to assess the information for themselves.

But they are not free to decide not to accept the instruction.** If they do, they will not be Catholics.**

 

[Elizabeth502]

These little children must accept and believe in the Trinity, that Mary was conceived without sin, in the bodily assention of Mary into heaven, and in transubstantion - concepts that mature, intellectually trained adults have problems with.

Oh yes, these poor, put-upon oppressed “little children.”

They are not being hog-tied and forced, Sarah. They are, unlike Laura Schlesinger in her own youth, being presented with the option of actual belief and the option of actual relationship with their Creator. (She was never given that, as she explained; that multiplied her difficulty being open to it as an adult.)

Children are individuals. They don’t become individuals just at adulthood. They each have various receptors and levels of reception. (And brains have been scanned to observe that some people have more receptors to religious experience than others have.) I would no more deny my own child the opportunity of belief and experience in religion than I would deny the opportunity for them to imagine and wonder what makes the universe tick, visibly and invisibly. If they’re never given an opportunity, they are never introduced when their brains are more likely to ponder on the nature of mystery without prejudice or preconceived notions, then they will in fact have nothing to choose among, as adults.

How anyone could listen to a nine year old say they believed such things, without seeing how they must have been indoctrinated, is beyone me, because there is no way to rationalize these things, as in the case of theft. They must simply be taken as true, and if you don’t accept them as true, then you’re not a Catholic.

The explanation of legitimate Catholic identity has already been explained to you. It’s your choice to reject the explanation. I’ve been patient enough with you.

 

[PRmerger]

That depends on the topic. If a child wants to believe it is safe to jump off a roof should that be corrected or should the child be allowed to make an educated decision and then jump?

Yep.

And if a child believes that it’s okay to go up to a stranger in a restaurant and eat off his plate, he should be told: You can’t do that.

We could go on and on and on with examples of such, no?

 

[PRmerger]

Indoctrination is used usually to imply some type of bias.

It is one thing to present objective truths to a child and it is quite another to indoctrinate a particular ideology such as the gay agenda.

Yes.

Take this analogy:

Teaching : indoctrination

Rules : oppression

The latter are the perversion of the former.

 

[atheistgirl]

Indoctrination is used usually to imply some type of bias.

It is one thing to present objective truths to a child and it is quite another to indoctrinate a particular ideology such as the gay agenda.

How does a child know what it’s being told is an objective truth in regards to religion?

Because it’s parents tell them so?

Do Catholic parents have some type of bias when imparting the faith?

Do they tell their kids this is what Catholics believe, this is what Protestants believe, this is what Jews believe, this is what Muslims believe and this is what atheists think about God - here’s the information, you think about it, and when you are of an age to rationalize these things fully, you’re free to make your own mind up?

Or do they tell them you’re free to believe as the Muslims do, but you’d be wrong since only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and your soul might, might, be in danger if you reject this truth now you’ve been told?

My guess is most parents of any faith don’t educate their children in other faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their faith, and tell them all other faiths are either outright wrong or defecient somehow, and in some cases they might be damned if they don’t believe as the parents do.

Do you think if the Church waited until children were grown up, to receive the sacraments, that the numbers of those receiving the sacraments such as communion, penance and confirmation would be negatively affected?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

That depends on the topic. If a child wants to believe it is safe to jump off a roof should that be corrected or should the child be allowed to make an educated decision and then jump?

That’s easily corrected with direct evidence such as photos from the emergency services of the outcome of such action to the individual.

The same can’t be said for the claims of the truth of various religions.

Sarah x

 

[Stephen168]

My guess is most parents of any faith don’t educate their children in other faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their faith, and tell them all other faiths are either outright wrong or defecient somehow, and in some cases they might be damned if they don’t believe as the parents do.

My guess is most atheist parents don’t educate their children in any faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their belief system, and tell them all other belief systems are either outright wrong or deficient somehow.

 

[atheistgirl]

My guess is most atheist parents don’t educate their children in any faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their belief system, and tell them all other belief systems are either outright wrong or deficient somehow.

Any ideas on the questions I asked?

Sarah x

 

[Stephen168]

Any ideas on the questions I asked?

No, I’ve out grown that silly game.

I think the best horse for trail riding is the mustang. A subjective statement but I truly believe it. We didn’t want to influence our children about one breed of horse being better than the other. We wanted them to decide for themselves, so we never exposed them to horses of any kind. Now they are adults. I now ride a mustang, and they don’t ride horses of any kind.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My guess is most atheist parents don’t educate their children in any faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their belief system, and tell them all other belief systems are either outright wrong or deficient somehow.

and that other belief systems are indoctrination, whereas the adamant, deliberate, and systematic denial of any specifically religious set of beliefs (divinity or divinities) couldn’t be indoctrination. No.

 

[atheistgirl]

No, I’ve out grown that silly game.

You’ve just answered it for me, perhaps better than you’ll ever know.



Sarah x

 

[Stephen168]

and that other belief systems are indoctrination, whereas the adamant, deliberate, and systematic denial of any specifically religious set of beliefs (divinity or divinities) couldn’t be indoctrination. No.

And as I pointed out in post #300, she basically described “instruction” and “indoctrination” the same way. Very funny, I thought. Clearly if you agree with her position it is instruction and disagree it is indoctrination.

 

[atheistgirl]

My guess is most atheist parents don’t educate their children in any faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their belief system, and tell them all other belief systems are either outright wrong or deficient somehow.

Really?

Well, since atheism isn’t a belief system, rather a position on a single issue, I doubt two atheists would agree on just about anything else you throw at them

I educate my children to be rational thinking human beings.

If they, upon investigation felt that the Muslim faith, or the Christian faith, or any other faith, is rational, logical, can be evidenced and makes perfect sense to them, and they convert, I will be their proud mother in the top pew of the church or mosque for the conversion service.

I’ve never told my kids not to look into a particular belief system because it’s wrong or deficient - they can make their own minds up when they are able to assess the faith based claims and information for themselves.

They know about God, in his different forms as believed in by different faiths. They are exposed to Christian thought and expression through some of their friends and through other people they meet through clubs, sport and so on.

It’s important to me that they should know about the different beliefs of people - to enable them to be respectful of other people and their beliefs.

And yet, apart from educating themselves about the beliefs that exist in the world, they’ve not shown the slightest interest in investigating these beliefs further.

I guess they got my practical, rational genes

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

And as I pointed out in post #300, she basically described “instruction” and “indoctrination” the same way. Very funny, I thought. Clearly if you agree with her position it is instruction and disagree it is indoctrination.

Nope.

If you instruct your 9 year old not to jump off the roof because they will be harmed, you can back this claim up with evidence, and you can appeal to the rational, logical part of their brain that already knows that the human body experiences pain, and falling onto concrete from a height without protective clothing, will inflict pain.

That’s instruction.

If you tell your 9 year old there is a God in heaven that knows everything you’re thinking, and looks on disapprovingly when you’re naughty, and when you’re naughty you upset God, that’s indoctrination because you can not back that claim up with evidence.

It must be taken on faith.

It must be believed because you say so and it can not be tested for proof.

That to me is indoctrination.

Sarah x

 

[Stephen168]

Really?

Well, since atheism isn’t a belief system, rather a position on a single issue, I doubt two atheists would agree on just about anything else you throw at them

I educate my children to be rational thinking human beings.

If they, upon investigation felt that the Muslim faith, or the Christian faith, or any other faith, is rational, logical, can be evidenced and makes perfect sense to them, and they convert, I will be their proud mother in the top pew of the church or mosque for the conversion service.

I’ve never told my kids not to look into a particular belief system because it’s wrong or deficient - they can make their own minds up when they are able to assess the faith based claims and information for themselves.

They know about God, in his different forms as believed in by different faiths. They are exposed to Christian thought and expression through some of their friends and through other people they meet through clubs, sport and so on.

It’s important to me that they should know about the different beliefs of people - to enable them to be respectful of other people and their beliefs.

And yet, apart from educating themselves about the beliefs that exist in the world, they’ve not shown the slightest interest in investigating these beliefs further.

I guess they got my practical, rational genes

Sarah x

You’ve already shown yourself to be irrational, but back pedaling is good exercise.

 

[atheistgirl]

You’ve already shown yourself to be irrational, but back pedaling is good exercise.

Nope.

My Jekyll doesn’t have a fixed rear wheel - if I back pedaled I’d get nowhere.

I shall refrain from making personal accusations and comments about you, because I don’t feel the need to highlight your refusal to answer my questions.

And I know why

Sarah x

 

[Bradski]

That depends on the topic. If a child wants to believe it is safe to jump off a roof should that be corrected or should the child be allowed to make an educated decision and then jump?

Sure, but do you think it’s correct to tell a child what to believe in a religious sense. And I mean as in ‘this is what you must believe’.

I have never heard of Catholic parents telling children what they “must” believe.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, that’s what Lochias believes - see post 275. And hang around. We may get some further (name removed by moderator)ut on the matter from Fix as well.

My guess is most atheist parents don’t educate their children in any faiths and let them chose for themselves. They educate them in their belief system, and tell them all other belief systems are either outright wrong or deficient somehow.

This is a tricky subject. Those of us with children like to think that we’ve brought them up as best we can. I’m sure we all wish we could have done it better in some ways. So for anyone on either side of the fence to claim ‘indoctrination’ or to suggest that we point them in a particular way ignoring their best interests, well…it’s going to rankle.

This is definitely a case of post in haste, repent at leisure. I’m even doing it myself to a certain extent. Do I really want Fix to tell me he ‘indoctrinates’ his kids to score a cheap point?

Having sat on this post for a while, I think it might be a little more complicated than that. Well, that didn’t just come to me in the last hour – I’ve always known it. But I realise I’m going to get caught up in the ‘We educate, you indoctrinate’ argument which rarely goes anywhere. So I might sit this out for a while and ruminate. In passing, AtheistGirl and Elizabeth both have good points worth considering

And incidently I won’t be posting for 3 weeks or so – off on holiday (big deal, I hear you say). But I’m something of a newbie and I didn’t want anyone thinking I was cutting and running. The debates are interesting, the tone quite reasonable and the beliefs honestly held, so I’d like to stick around.