Why can't liberal gay activists see that we would leave them alone if they would stop attacking the Catholic Church?

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Sure, but do you think it’s correct to tell a child what to believe in a religious sense. And I mean as in ‘this is what you must believe’.
We don’t say it that way, if I can speak for Catholic parents (and I think I can in this context.)

We use the same paradigm that we do when we say, “This is what you must believe: you spell “religious” R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S, not R-I-L-U-J-U-I-C-E”.

And when we say, “This is what you must believe: do not go with that man who offers you candy.”

And when we say, “This is what you must believe: if you touch that hot curling iron, you will get burned.”
 
And incidently I won’t be posting for 3 weeks or so – off on holiday (big deal, I hear you say). But I’m something of a newbie and I didn’t want anyone thinking I was cutting and running. The debates are interesting, the tone quite reasonable and the beliefs honestly held, so I’d like to stick around.
Oh, that’s too bad, Bradski.

I would have liked to see what posts here have declared that indoctrination is a good thing, as you claimed you were going to do:
If you can show me a post on this thread where someone declares that children being indoctrinated is a good thing, I will retract my statement.

Requirement: indoctrinate must be in the post. (I’ll accept some form of the word: indoctrination, indoctrinated, etc etc). And it must portray this indoctrination as a good thing.

🍿
OK, I’ll go off and look (although I’m not quite sure why I’m doing this).
i.imgur.com/ZDgYF.gif
 
Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, that’s what Lochias believes - see post 275.
Actually, I retract what I said, because Elizabeth explains it far, far better than I. I still think children should be free to be children without moral and theological quandary heaped upon their heads.

Elizabeth does a far better job of elucidating that line of thought than I.
 
But I realise I’m going to get caught up in the ‘We educate, you indoctrinate’ argument which rarely goes anywhere.
I never saw it as much of an argument but as a statement of self-righteous hypocrisy. I first noticed during my school days when our -]indoc/-] educators told us how lucky we were to have a free and liberal education while those poor Russians were indoctrinated into thinking the evils of communism were a wonderful thing. The “duck and cover drills” which would protect us from the missile the Russians were capable of dropping into the American heartland, made me think if those people can do that, they are probably getting as fine an education as I am. I would sometimes joke about my public education being an indoctrination after that. Indoctrination is an “anti-” word. We were anti-communist so they were being indoctrinated. I’ve never observed it being used any differently since then.(see post #300)
This is a tricky subject. Those of us with children like to think that we’ve brought them up as best we can. I’m sure we all wish we could have done it better in some ways. So for anyone on either side of the fence to claim ‘indoctrination’ or to suggest that we point them in a particular way ignoring their best interests, well…it’s going to rankle.
Yes, we have values and a world view that we know is true, and we pass that on to our children the best we can. Anyone who calls it indoctrination is just a self-righteous hypocrite in that they are doing the same thing to their children.
 
Actually, I retract what I said, because Elizabeth explains it far, far better than I
Are you retracting all of it? Including this bit?
Being told what to believe has not damaged me, deranged me, made me less able to empathize and help my fellow man, or anything else negative or strange.
Oh, that’s too bad, Bradski.

I would have liked to see what posts here have declared that indoctrination is a good thing, as you claimed you were going to do:
It doesn’t sound like you’re reading many of the posts. I give you an answer, then a few posts later you ask it again. Go back to post 257 for a reply. I went to see if I could find any saying indoctrination was a good thing and believe it or not, there weren’t any. Which I never said there were, which is why it was puzzling we had to try and find some.

Oh, except for Lochia, who didn’t use ‘that word’ but believed it was OK to tell children what to believe. From your reply, it seems that you do as well. Can you confirm that? Bear in mind he retracted his original view.
 
Are you retracting all of it? Including this bit?
Yup. I wasn’t sure how to phrase what I was trying to get across, and did a poor job.

Because I retracted it, am I now damaged, deranged, less able to empathize with my fellow man, negative and strange?

My mom answered any questions we had concerning our faith. I’ve never seen the counter to her answers as I’ve grown up.
 
Oh, except for Lochia, who didn’t use ‘that word’ but believed it was OK to tell children what to believe. From your reply, it seems that you do as well.
I am astonished that anyone who’s had children would believe otherwise.

You want to proclaim here on this forum that you wouldn’t tell your children to believe that touching a hot iron is a bad thing?

:whacky: :whacky: :whacky:
 
Don’t be facile. We’re talking religious beliefs. Either ask sensible questions or move on.
 
I am astonished that anyone who’s had children would believe otherwise.

You want to proclaim here on this forum that you wouldn’t tell your children to believe that touching a hot iron is a bad thing?

:whacky: :whacky: :whacky:
Thank you very, very much. That was the context I was going for, yes.
 
Thank you very, very much. That was the context I was going for, yes.
Right.

Of course we tell our children what to believe regarding: math, spelling, manners, who their aunt is, how to get to the zoo, biology, safety, health, sleep, hygiene, astronomy, astrology (it’s fake!), psychics (don’t give your money to them!), strangers, immunizations, aeronautics (it’s absolutely safe to fly in this plane! don’t be scared!)

but for some reason atheists want to say, “religion: not so much. Can’t tell our children anything about that because that would be…bad.”
 
Don’t be facile. We’re talking religious beliefs. Either ask sensible questions or move on.
Please use the quote function, Bradski, so readers can know to whom you are addressing. Thanks.

Right now, this comment you made is just floating in the air without any context.
 
Right.

Of course we tell our children what to believe regarding: math, spelling, manners, who their aunt is, how to get to the zoo, biology, safety, health, sleep, hygiene, astronomy, astrology (it’s fake!), psychics (don’t give your money to them!), strangers, immunizations, aeronautics (it’s absolutely safe to fly in this plane! don’t be scared!)

but for some reason atheists want to say, “religion: not so much. Can’t tell our children anything about that because that would be…bad.”
Yup. That comes down to atheists not wanting anyone else to rain on their parade, prettymuch 🤷 No matter how much that parade may tramp all over anyone else’s.
 
Of course we tell our children what to believe regarding: math, spelling, manners, who their aunt is, how to get to the zoo, biology, safety, health, sleep, hygiene, astronomy, astrology (it’s fake!), psychics (don’t give your money to them!), strangers, immunizations, aeronautics (it’s absolutely safe to fly in this plane! don’t be scared!) but for some reason atheists want to say, “religion: not so much. Can’t tell our children anything about that because that would be…bad.”
I can’t recall telling either of my children to simply believe any of the maths they were taught. They were encouraged to understand it. Likewise all the other subjects you mentioned. All practical subjects with definite facts that are available to all. I tried always to give them reasons why such and such was true or why they had to do something (have a bath) or not do something (touch the hot iron). I don’t think anyone could disagree with that.

In regard to religion, my wife and I did our best to give them as much information about religion as they would need to make educated decisions about it. We live in a predominantly Jewish area, so they were taught about the Jewish faith. They have Jewish friends.

I was brought up as an Anglican and that faith was explained to them in a little more detail – I knew more about it. I even took my daughter to my old church in the UK when we visited and introduced her to some of the congregation that I knew from years back.

There are a lot of good schools in the area but we had no problem in sending both to Catholic Schools. My wife particularly thought a religious background to their education would be a good thing.

I don’t normally ask people what they teach their kids and what their personal beliefs are, so I don’t know what others do. But personally, I had no problem in making sure mine knew about religion. So far from: ‘Can’t tell our children anything about that because that would be…bad’, I actually think it’s a good thing.

But I didn’t tell them that they must or must not believe any of them. I left that for them to decide themselves.

Oh, and don’t be precious about quoting someone. If my post follows yours and I comment on what you’ve said, I think most people would understand that it was referring to you. You didn’t seem to have a problem understanding that.
 
Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, that’s what Lochias believes - see post 275…
He said in that post he was “told what to believe.” He didn’t say he was “forced.” I assume his parents didn’t lock him in a closet without food & water until he confessed every last item of the faith. His parents, IOW, formed him, just as mine formed me – not only in the faith, but in the case of our family, even much more so in civic virtue and what’s sometimes referred to as ‘secular virtue’ or the everyday human virtues of responsibility, reliability, punctuality, consideration of others, industriousness, etc. In addition, we were very much formed intellectually. Education was such an icon in our household that my mother could have richly homeschooled us long before it became a (revisited) modern trend. All of that was part of my formation, and my parents considered all of it equally their duty. It wasn’t going to just “happen” without their guidance.

And of the 4 children, I alone have stayed with religion. My parents didn’t express great despair when my siblings eventually drifted away. They recognized our development into adulthood and with that, autonomy & individuality. In fact, it’s been my observation as a child and as an adult that often the believer “drives” the desire for more. I know I was the one who did in my family, but if I had never been introduced to it, I would not have necessarily “discovered” it on my own. As I said elsewhere, the experience of (openness to) religion as a child is different (usually) than it is for an adult. The sense of wonder, awe, surrender, and receptivity in a child facilitates what is best and most enduring about religious experience. (As opposed to mere religious ideas.)

Nor has it affected negatively my relations with any of my family, nor with friends who have drifted away from this or all religion. Even those who have drifted away acknowledge that religious formation centered them within a base of identifiable values which included the importance of ritual and the seasons, which they still respect and gained comfort from as children.

It’s very difficult to communcate this to someone who has not had such a background.
 
He said in that post he was “told what to believe.” He didn’t say he was “forced.”
Well, he must have felt that what he wrote didn’t accurately reflect what occurred, because he retracted it. Which I might say showed some mettle.
And of the 4 children, I alone have stayed with religion. My parents didn’t express great despair when my siblings eventually drifted away. They recognized our development into adulthood and with that, autonomy & individuality. In fact, it’s been my observation as a child and as an adult that often the believer “drives” the desire for more. I know I was the one who did in my family, but if I had never been introduced to it, I would not have necessarily “discovered” it on my own.
Then it was a good thing for you.
As I said elsewhere, the experience of (openness to) religion as a child is different (usually) than it is for an adult. The sense of wonder, awe, surrender, and receptivity in a child facilitates what is best and most enduring about religious experience. (As opposed to mere religious ideas.)
I’m going to respectfully disagree here. It’s because a child is so trusting, amenable and receptive that you have to be careful what you teach them. We’ve all seen pictures of Muslim children (sorry, children of Muslin parents) wearing bandoliers, toting an AK47 or chanting hate slogans. I’m not suggesting that anyone here would do something similar to their child, but it has to be pretty obvious that you can get a child to believe in anything.

I’m not sure on your views on hell, for example, but it really is not difficult to instil the terror of damnation into young minds. I don’t think any sane person would agree that that is a good thing.

I was brought up in a religious household and taught what my parents believed. But I wasn’t ‘told what to believe’ (which I agree does not equate with being forced to believe, and no-one was suggesting as such). They never said that I had to believe. I think that they expected it would naturally follow – which it didn’t.

Actually, it was when we started moving on from the usual Sunday School topics like Noah’s Arc with colouring-in books and felt giraffes to the more esoteric subjects like the Trinity and transubstantiation that I gradually realised that I was meant to take it all seriously. The process of preparing me for confirmation turned me into an atheist. Some irony there, I guess. Although I have heard that the best way to cast doubt in a young priest’s mind is to send him to a seminary.
Nor has it affected negatively my relations with any of my family, nor with friends who have drifted away from this or all religion. Even those who have drifted away acknowledge that religious formation centered them within a base of identifiable values which included the importance of ritual and the seasons, which they still respect and gained comfort from as children.
I can’t disagree with that. There was nothing wrong with my upbringing. It did all you said. It just didn’t ring true for me as a way forward.
It’s very difficult to communcate this to someone who has not had such a background.
I hope I understand to some extent.
 
Don’t be facile. We’re talking religious beliefs. Either ask sensible questions or move on.
Firstly I do hope that you will have a wonderful and joyous holiday( I will ask God to keep you safe–even though you think that all the beautiful world around you just happened --with a bang maybe?:p;)

I have read all the posts and in a way we here on this thread are struggling to be on the same page as far as terms go and our understanding of them are all over the shop!
When I was a kid as catholic, I attended Reigious Docrine classes.Here the Sisters and later the Brothers(along with some fine lay staff) taught us the Doctrine of The Catholic Faith and our texts was The “Penny” Catechism.Basically the good people taught me a childs’explanation of Salvation History:Yes,God Made Flesh in His Son Jesus to save me from my sins due to the fall of our first parents.(no I am not going to continue stating what I had learnt!!thought I am sure you are reading this with abated breath–saying Oh,please continue with this Docrine Lesson!!!:D–no bull!!😉

Now I understand that INDOCTRINATION means the opposite(it has something to do with the IN–latin sure is funny!!) So basically I thought that the term Indoctrination means to “tell a pork pie–a lie” and to teach something that is not a truth or an exagerated version of the truth.It also implies that Indoctrination is a process of filling a mind of false information to a person ; who either has not reached an age of reason(a young child about under the age of seven) or a person with a feeble mind or under some drug(as with the commies or even in some religious Sects;maybe through hypnosis)

So no,Catholic Schools or parents do not indoctrinate their children, as they teach them to believe & be baptized in Christ, who is The Way,**The Truth **& The Life.Teaching a child the truth about God is not Indoctrination.

Have a good trip man and throw a few shrimps on the barbie(and thank your mother for the rabbits for me!!)😛
 
We don’t say it that way, if I can speak for Catholic parents (and I think I can in this context.)

We use the same paradigm that we do when we say, “This is what you must believe: you spell “religious” R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S, not R-I-L-U-J-U-I-C-E”.

And when we say, “This is what you must believe: do not go with that man who offers you candy.”

And when we say, “This is what you must believe: if you touch that hot curling iron, you will get burned.”
👍
Bernard Shaw stated “The wars of tomorrow will be a war of ideas and the victims will be the minds of our children” --what shrewd observation!! I too was **doctrined **as I got a belting for playing near a disused mine shaft which was full of water–a week later a kid(probably **indoctrinated–**belong to an athiest parent I wonder!!:D) drowned in it.See my parents said "that is why you SHOULD OBEY us and not DisObey"As you know ,God does the same with us, through the means of our parents.Talk about argueing about topics and not the issues of this thread—here is a link closer to our subject!!!

The six ways homosexual activists manipulate public opinion
By Brian Clowes

lifesitenews.com/news/the-six-ways-homosexual-activists-manipulate-public-opinion

May 31, 2012 (HLIWorldWatch.org) - Anyone who is concerned about the influence of the homosexual agenda on reshaping traditional values must become intimately familiar with the major tactics that homophiles commonly employ in order to anticipate them and respond in charity and truth. Homophile strategists are very adept at manipulating public opinion with an arsenal of six tactics that are based upon deceptions and half‑truths:

**Exploit the “victim” status;

Use the sympathetic media;

Confuse and neutralize the churches;

Slander and stereotype Christians;

Bait and switch (hide their true nature);
and
Intimidation.**

One reason these tactics have worked so well is that homophile activists have succeeded in marketing a harmless and friendly image of their movement. They have lulled people into thinking that the wider society will not be adversely affected by their radical social agenda. Homosexual strategists have, in many cases, toned down their extreme rhetoric and have cloaked their agenda in soothing language. Over time, however, many have begun to think of themselves and others as “homophobes” or “haters” if they oppose any aspect of the homosexual rights agenda — or, incredibly, even if they question it in their own minds.

Generals and attorneys often wish that their opponents would write a book. Interestingly, leaders of the “homosexual rights” movement did exactly that. Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen clearly laid out this agenda in the marching orders of the movement, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear & Hatred of Gays in the 90s.[1] This volume is an absolute treasure chest of information for those pro-family stalwarts who are actively engaged against the homosexual rights agenda.

By far the most popular homophile tactic is the claim to victim status, which is a very powerful, almost paralyzing, weapon that gives them a distinct advantage in the public square. Kirk and Madsen summarize the potent effectiveness of the victim status:

In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector. … The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable; that is, to jam with shame the self-righteous pride that would ordinarily accompany and reward their antigay belligerence, and to lay groundwork for the process of conversion by helping straights identify with gays and sympathize with their underdog status. … the public should be persuaded that gays are victims of circumstance, that they no more chose their sexual orientation than they did, say, their height, skin color, talents, or limitations. … gays should be portrayed as victims of prejudice.

Does this sound familiar? It does if one pays attention to any mainstream media coverage of these controversial issues as they play out in law and society. But the victim status requires a story to back it up. Thus, perhaps the most common lament of the garden-variety homophile revolves around the alleged “tidal wave of anti-gay” hate crimes.

An analysis of FBI statistics on hate crimes committed against homosexuals during the time period 2000-2008 shows that the probability of any individual homosexual being the victim of a hate crime during his or her entire life span is slightly more than one percent.[2] Interestingly, “gays” are more likely to commit hate crimes against “straights” than “straights” are to commit hate crimes against “gays.” According to the FBI, there are 3.98 hate crimes committed by each million heterosexuals annually against homosexuals, and there are 4.44 hate crimes committed by each million homosexuals annually against heterosexuals.[3]

Violence against homosexuals by others gets all the press, but it is interesting to note that the great majority of anti-”gay” violence is committed by other “gays.” The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP) is the leading tracker of violence against “gays” in the United States. According to the NCAVP’s statistics on anti-”gay” violence, 83 percent of all violence committed against “gays” is carried out by other “gays” in domestic situations. This does not even count “gay-on-gay” violence committed outside the home.[4]

This confusion is now pervasive in society, and questioning the agenda is simply not to be tolerated – especially among America’s youth.

For example, the classical notion that universities should be “arenas for the free exchange of ideas” has been completely discarded in the United States. More than three-fourths of U.S. colleges and universities now possess codes of conduct that ban behavior and speech based upon, including many other things, “homophobia.” The danger that these codes represent to academic freedom far outweighs their usefulness. This has already been amply demonstrated, as many colleges have severely punished students for merely desiring to debate the topic of homosexuality.

The squashing of dissenting views on homosexuality in the classroom has been going on for decades now. In 1991, a student at the University of Michigan announced his intention to establish a counseling program to help homosexuals leave their lifestyle. He was dragged before a panel of university administrators, unanimously found guilty of “sexual harassment,” and was thrown out of the university.[5] In 2000, the Student Judiciary of Tufts University voted officially to “derecognize” the Tufts Christian Fellowship (TCF) club for taking into account, for purposes of selecting leaders, the beliefs of a member whose views of Scripture and homosexuality were opposed to their own.[6] The TCF was stripped of funding, not permitted to use the Tufts name, not permitted to meet in any room that required a reservation, and not allowed to advertise or announce any of their events or meetings. In 2011, a Fort Worth, Texas high school student was suspended from school for reportedly saying, “I’m a Christian, and I don’t think being gay is right,” during a class discussion.[7] And teachers don’t have it any easier. In 2010 a professor at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign was accused of “hate speech” and relieved of his teaching duties for teaching Catholic doctrine on homosexuality in his Introduction to Catholicism class.[8]

Political science professor Jean Betheke Elshtain, while highlighting the dangers presented by codes against racism, also points out the difficulties associated with all punitive codes of this nature: “My hunch is that, over the long haul, the upshot of such endeavors [college speech codes] will not be a purified, racist-free, collective student consciousness, but a simmering backlog of resentment at being labeled as a racist, even if one has never committed a racist act or uttered a racist slur.”[9]

No one should attempt to deny homosexuals their basic human rights; which are the same basic rights that we all have as being sons and daughters of God. But it has gotten to the point where we have to fight to preserve our own basic rights — the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, and teaching our own children our values – in order to protect our own families and institutions.

Those who promote homosexuality are forcibly tearing away more and more of the rights of Christians, and the situation is rapidly deteriorating. Who could have possibly imagined just a few years ago that companies would start firing people for writing pro-family articles on their own time, or business owners would be sued for refusing to participate in homosexual union ceremonies?

Now is the time to draw the line, to stand and defend our families and our rights without apology in the public square.

👍
 
Firstly I do hope that you will have a wonderful and joyous holiday( I will ask God to keep you safe–even though you think that all the beautiful world around you just happened --with a bang maybe?:p;)

I have read all the posts and in a way we here on this thread are struggling to be on the same page as far as terms go and our understanding of them are all over the shop!
When I was a kid as catholic, I attended Reigious Docrine classes.Here the Sisters and later the Brothers(along with some fine lay staff) taught us the Doctrine of The Catholic Faith and our texts was The “Penny” Catechism.Basically the good people taught me a childs’explanation of Salvation History:Yes,God Made Flesh in His Son Jesus to save me from my sins due to the fall of our first parents.(no I am not going to continue stating what I had learnt!!thought I am sure you are reading this with abated breath–saying Oh,please continue with this Docrine Lesson!!!:D–no bull!!😉

Now I understand that INDOCTRINATION means the opposite(it has something to do with the IN–latin sure is funny!!) So basically I thought that the term Indoctrination means to “tell a pork pie–a lie” and to teach something that is not a truth or an exagerated version of the truth.It also implies that Indoctrination is a process of filling a mind of false information to a person ; who either has not reached an age of reason(a young child about under the age of seven) or a person with a feeble mind or under some drug(as with the commies or even in some religious Sects;maybe through hypnosis)

So no,Catholic Schools or parents do not indoctrinate their children, as they teach them to believe & be baptized in Christ, who is The Way,**The Truth **& The Life.Teaching a child the truth about God is not Indoctrination it is doctrination–get it!!.

Have a good trip man and throw a few shrimps on the barbie(and thank your mother for the rabbits for me!!)😛
 
In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector. … The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable; that is, to jam with shame the self-righteous pride that would ordinarily accompany and reward their antigay belligerence, and to lay groundwork for the process of conversion by helping straights identify with gays and sympathize with their underdog status. … the public should be persuaded that gays are victims of circumstance, that they no more chose their sexual orientation than they did, say, their height, skin color, talents, or limitations. … gays should be portrayed as victims of prejudice.

Does this sound familiar?
I’ll respond to the rest later, but for right now I’m feeling reinforced for posting this ahead of yours.
40.png
Elizabeth502:
Being a victim (of society) entitles them to sexual indulgence.
(Also see post 264 on the same page, for context.)
 
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