If I called your sex life perverted etc and worked to prevent you from legally marrying whoever you are married to, would you consider that an insult?
Marriage, by its definition, can only be between a man and a woman. The issue here is not of preventing a gay couple from having something that they are legally entitled to, but trying to make something perform a function that it was never meant to perform. An apple can only ever be an apple; it cannot be an orange, no matter how much orange lovers might want it to be.
The insult comes from those who are trying to force their new “definitions” of marriage on those who believe that it is sinful and wrong to do so. It is intrinsically wrong, and an insult from our point of view.
We can say we love black people, and we can even mean it sincerely, but if we insist they still must ride in the back of bus, our declaration of love is revealed to be empty.
Ah, but Catholics don’t insist that homosexuals ride in the back of the bus, either. A priest with SSA and a priest without, for example are in the exact same boat; both are called to celibacy, and both are equal in God’s eyes and in the eyes of the Church. A practicing Catholic with SSA would be required to be chaste, as would a practicing Catholic without SSA who was, for example, divorced and waiting for an annulment.
Catholics with SSA are, from the Church’s POV, called to something else in the world other than marriage and sex. Does this diminish them in God’s eyes? Do we make them ride in the back of the bus? Of course not.
If we support the “inherent dignity of the human person” we are then required to provide the same rights to others that we claim for ourselves. If I wish to marry the person I am actually in love with, I must extend this right to you as well.
No, supporting the inherent dignity of the human person would require that new human persons could be produced from a physical union. If two homosexuals marry, there is no chance of life; they have turned inward, and their selfishness becomes antithetical to the inherent dignity of the human person.
If Catholics are willing to allow strangers outside of their community to tell them who they can marry, then we could revisit the question in that light, and logically apply the same rules to others as well.
I don’t understand. Can you give me an example of what you mean?
I agree of course, and am not claiming Catholics are the ones doing the beatings. If sloppy writing on my part gave that impression, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I’ll work harder to tighten up my rhetoric.
Thank you.
However, Catholic ideology is indeed providing intellectual rationalization to those who do the beatings. Catholic ideology declines to make a decisive, clear, morally courageous break with a cultural ethos of repression which has plagued the gay community for centuries.
Catholic ideology also prevents a practicing Catholic from beating anybody, for any reason, outside of immediate threat to life. You cannot isolate a moral stance from the rest of the morals, in other words; to do so is dishonest, towards others as well as yourself.
This is a shame as Catholics are well positioned to understand the challenges the gay community has historically faced, as Catholics themselves have faced some of the same oppression.
To an extent, yes. Some of what the homosexual communities now face is a result of their own choices; no-one lives on an island. Catholics have always been there for any who are truly oppressed and in danger, however.
I am not directing my frustrations on this issue to those fundamentalist Protestant denominations who also want second class citizens for gays, because I have no hope for them, and am not one of them in any manner.
Ok. Can’t speak for any of them, myself.
You should see my activism, my frustration, my attendance here, as a sign that I have not given up on Catholics, that I believe you to be an intelligent, educated, highly moral community, who have yourselves experienced the burden of repression, and thus are in a position to accept the gay community as fully equal brothers and sisters.
We already do. See above. We all have our crosses to bear.
I sincerely believe that both Catholics, the gay community, and the church itself would benefit from a display of such decisive moral clarity.
They are benefiting now from the Church’s display of decisive moral clarity. We teach and we act what God taught us, and taught us to act. We cannot change fundamental principles of right and wrong.
And so I call you to a higher standard than other Christian conservatives.
This is a sign of respect, if not always delivered with perfect grace, charm and diplomacy. I am a passionate person, and indeed sometimes somewhat of a jerk. There’s no reason for you to make my problem your problem. You already have enough problems of your own.
I do not have contempt for Catholics. I do not have contempt for Catholicism as a whole. As I’ve tried to share I am myself, at least in the cultural and genetic sense, a Catholic. I believe that by coming here and sharing these thoughts, I am embracing that part of my heritage.
Ok.
I do have contempt for any part of any intellectual system which rationalizes the ongoing oppression of millions of people. I believe it is in the best spirit of Catholicism to stand up publicly and make that statement.
We have, many times.
If I was labeling Catholic sex as perverted, and was publicly calling for laws that would prevent Catholics from marrying other Catholics, would you be emotional? Wouldn’t some measure of emotion be appropriate in such a circumstance?
Again, you cannot compare the two. In this hypothetical situation, you may as well be asking, “Wouldn’t some measure of emotion be purple monkey dishwasher?”
All I’m asking is that you extend that which you want for yourself to those around you as well.
What we want for ourselves is to lead a life free of sin, so that we can hopefully reach Heaven when we die. We are extending that to those around us as best we can. Cooperation on their part is also required, however. Perhaps, with a decisive moral stand of your own, you can help others get Home. It’s up to you.
).
Imagine.