Why can't muslims understand?

[LatinCat]

I am coming up against a problem in this forum over and over again. Perhaps it is because I am Catholic and I am used to having a rational basis for my faith. Catholics love logic and philosophy and, in fact everything that we believe must be reasonable or the Church rejects it. Now, the problem I am having is concerning muslims. It seems to me that when they engage us in discussion on these forums they abandon logic. We give a reasonable explanation of the Trinity, and rather than trying to discuss what we have said rationally, they simply resort to saying, “that doesn’t make sense”. We give them a reasonable explanation of the hypostatic union, and the sink to same pathetic statement: “that doesn’t make any sense”. I do not believe that muslims are stupid and that all individual muslims are irrational, but is their relgion irrational? Does it require them to abandon logic? Are they fideists?
The second problem that I am having in this forum, is that muslims mischaracterize Catholic beliefs. For example they behave as if Catholics believe that God is one person, and three people. That is silly. We would never subscribe to such nonsense. Rather we believe that with regard to persons, God is three, with regard to being God is one. They often ask silly questions like, “how could Jesus be praying to himself?” Well, that is a mischaracterization because, while we believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God, i.e. they share the same being and divinity, they are distinct persons. Another mischaracterization is that Christians worship Mary. Nonsense. Christians honor Mary, but muslims continue to bring this up. Are they purposely trying to mischaracterize our faith or are they purposely trying not to understand what we believe?

 

[mozier]

They are thinking of the Christian God as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. This is what is confusing them.

Instead, tell them that God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

As for worshipping Mary, it says in the Quran that we do. So tell them that we don’t, but keep in mind that what is in the Quran is more important to them, so essentially you will be saying that the Quran is wrong, which of course is unacceptable to them.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

mozier:

They are thinking of the Christian God as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. This is what is confusing them.

Instead, tell them that God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1…

Woah… Be carefull about using mathematical metaphores… I used that example on another thread and soon variables were flying all over the place.

mozier:

As for worshipping Mary, it says in the Quran that we do. So tell them that we don’t, but keep in mind that what is in the Quran is more important to them, so essentially you will be saying that the Quran is wrong, which of course is unacceptable to them

Yep. I’m not certain that muslims come here to understand Catholicism or just to tell us how wrong we are.

 

[anna1978]

They come here to show us they are ‘right’ and we are fools not to see it …

Anna x

 

[LatinCat]

mozier:

They are thinking of the Christian God as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. This is what is confusing them.

Instead, tell them that God is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

As for worshipping Mary, it says in the Quran that we do. So tell them that we don’t, but keep in mind that what is in the Quran is more important to them, so essentially you will be saying that the Quran is wrong, which of course is unacceptable to them.

I avoid using the mathematical model. Rather, I show how the Trinity does NOT violate the law of non-contradiction.

 

[Ahimsa]

If you really want to know why Muslims don’t understand, then you have to look at Catholicism from a Muslim standpoint. To wit:

1. God is One: One person, One Being, just simply and plainly One. From the Muslim perspective, Christians add things to that simple declaration of Oneness (hypostatic union, Being, Person, Trinity, etc.), all of which are incorrect additions to God’s supreme Unity. If God is One, then He can’t share that Oneness with any other “persons”.
2. Prayer is worship. From the Muslim perspective, to pray is to worship. To pray to any other spiritual being is to worship, to venerate, that being. And since Catholics do engage in prayers directed towards the Saints, the Muslim sees this as “worship” of the Saints.

The basic problem is that the two groups, Muslims and Catholics, don’t agree on the basic definitions (of God, of worship, etc.), so they often can’t communicate with each other as well as they could.

 

[LatinCat]

Ahimsa:

If you really want to know why Muslims don’t understand, then you have to look at Catholicism from a Muslim standpoint. To wit:

1. God is One: One person, One Being, just simply and plainly One. From the Muslim perspective, Christians add things to that simple declaration of Oneness (hypostatic union, Being, Person, Trinity, etc.), all of which are incorrect additions to God’s supreme Unity. If God is One, then He can’t share that Oneness with any other “persons”.
2. Prayer is worship. From the Muslim perspective, to pray is to worship. To pray to any other spiritual being is to worship, to venerate, that being. And since Catholics do engage in prayers directed towards the Saints, the Muslim sees this as “worship” of the Saints.

The basic problem is that the two groups, Muslims and Catholics, don’t agree on the basic definitions (of God, of worship, etc.), so they often can’t communicate with each other as well as they could.

That is the most reasonable answer I have ever read from a muslim. But why can you guys not understand our beliefs? What you have stated is why you disagree with them. Why can’t you guys correctly articulate what we believe? Surely they are not too complicated for you.

 

[Ahimsa]

LatinCat:

That is the most reasonable answer I have ever read from a muslim.

Thanks, but I’m not Muslim.

Regarding the Muslim ability to understand Christian doctrine, you will find that many Muslims in fact do understand. Those Muslims, however, do not seem to frequent this forum.

 

[BryPGuy89]

LatinCat:

I am coming up against a problem in this forum over and over again. Perhaps it is because I am Catholic and I am used to having a rational basis for my faith. Catholics love logic and philosophy and, in fact everything that we believe must be reasonable or the Church rejects it. Now, the problem I am having is concerning muslims. It seems to me that when they engage us in discussion on these forums they abandon logic. We give a reasonable explanation of the Trinity, and rather than trying to discuss what we have said rationally, they simply resort to saying, “that doesn’t make sense”. We give them a reasonable explanation of the hypostatic union, and the sink to same pathetic statement: “that doesn’t make any sense”. I do not believe that muslims are stupid and that all individual muslims are irrational, but is their relgion irrational? Does it require them to abandon logic? Are they fideists?
The second problem that I am having in this forum, is that muslims mischaracterize Catholic beliefs. For example they behave as if Catholics believe that God is one person, and three people. That is silly. We would never subscribe to such nonsense. Rather we believe that with regard to persons, God is three, with regard to being God is one. They often ask silly questions like, “how could Jesus be praying to himself?” Well, that is a mischaracterization because, while we believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God, i.e. they share the same being and divinity, they are distinct persons. Another mischaracterization is that Christians worship Mary. Nonsense. Christians honor Mary, but muslims continue to bring this up. Are they purposely trying to mischaracterize our faith or are they purposely trying not to understand what we believe?

In ragard to this I tink it is just the fact that this is something they don’t know and have to learn, when I learn new things I previously didn’t know or understand it obviously usually doesn’t make sence to me until I’ve been learning or studying something for a little while, but when a teacher brought up completely new subjects it seems almost illogical.

 

[LatinCat]

Ahimsa:

Thanks, but I’m not Muslim.

Regarding the Muslim ability to understand Christian doctrine, you will find that many Muslims in fact do understand. Those Muslims, however, do not seem to frequent this forum.

Oops Sorry for calling you muslim.

 

[LatinCat]

BryPGuy89:

In ragard to this I tink it is just the fact that this is something they don’t know and have to learn, when I learn new things I previously didn’t know or understand it obviously usually doesn’t make sence to me until I’ve been learning or studying something for a little while, but when a teacher brought up completely new subjects it seems almost illogical.

This is a good point. But, when it has been shown to be logical over and over again, to the same person, why then do they still stuff their ears. I guess perhaps they do not have eyes to see or ears to hear. Spiritual blindness is a funny thing.

 

[JimG]

It seems from the posts from Muslims that I have seen here, that Muslims tend toward both literalness and sola scriptura when it comes to the scritpures, much like many Protestants.

If it is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, they do not accept it.

Another difference is that Catholic theology accepts the validity of human reason as a gift from God, and consequently accepts the insights of philosophy and metaphysics. I am thinking specifically of Aristotle and Aquinas, or more modern philosophers such as Mortimer Adler, F.J. Sheed, and Peter Kreeft. Muslims seem to be suspicious of anything which sounds like philosophy because they view it as adding something to the Quran, adding human thought to the divine.

It is for that reason that it is difficult to discuss, for example, the attributes of God, as a pre-requisite for discussion of the Trinity. For a Muslim, if an attribute is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, it is not to be trusted.

I’ve never seen a true Muslim-Christian discussion on such things as the difference between spirit and matter, time and eternity, person and nature.

One final thing. I’ve noticed that some muslims who post on this forum seem to have a highly negative view of human nature—almost as though it is totally depraved and full of filth, in the same manner that some Protestant denominations view human nature as inherently evil and corrupted. If human nature is viewed that way, the hypostatic union—God the Son assuming a human nature—becomes inconceivable. Yet, even with such a view of human nature, muslims do not believe in original sin or the necessity of redemption.

I don’t know if any Muslims have ever read western philosophical thought, but it almost seems one would have to have some familiarity with it in order to have a rational discussion.

 

[Isidore_AK]

Ahimsa:

If you really want to know why Muslims don’t understand, then you have to look at Catholicism from a Muslim standpoint. To wit:

1. God is One: One person, One Being, just simply and plainly One. From the Muslim perspective, Christians add things to that simple declaration of Oneness (hypostatic union, Being, Person, Trinity, etc.), all of which are incorrect additions to God’s supreme Unity. If God is One, then He can’t share that Oneness with any other “persons”.
2. Prayer is worship. From the Muslim perspective, to pray is to worship. To pray to any other spiritual being is to worship, to venerate, that being. And since Catholics do engage in prayers directed towards the Saints, the Muslim sees this as “worship” of the Saints.

The basic problem is that the two groups, Muslims and Catholics, don’t agree on the basic definitions (of God, of worship, etc.), so they often can’t communicate with each other as well as they could.

Sound like Protestants to me…at least the Fundamentalist/Pentacostal types anyway…

 

[LatinCat]

JimG:

It seems from the posts from Muslims that I have seen here, that Muslims tend toward both literalness and sola scriptura when it comes to the scritpures, much like many Protestants.

If it is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, they do not accept it.

Another difference is that Catholic theology accepts the validity of human reason as a gift from God, and consequently accepts the insights of philosophy and metaphysics. I am thinking specifically of Aristotle and Aquinas, or more modern philosophers such as Mortimer Adler, F.J. Sheed, and Peter Kreeft. Muslims seem to be suspicious of anything which sounds like philosophy because they view it as adding something to the Quran, adding human thought to the divine.

It is for that reason that it is difficult to discuss, for example, the attributes of God, as a pre-requisite for discussion of the Trinity. For a Muslim, if an attribute is not stated in the Quran or the hadiths, it is not to be trusted.

I’ve never seen a true Muslim-Christian discussion on such things as the difference between spirit and matter, time and eternity, person and nature.

One final thing. I’ve noticed that some muslims who post on this forum seem to have a highly negative view of human nature—almost as though it is totally depraved and full of filth, in the same manner that some Protestant denominations view human nature as inherently evil and corrupted. If human nature is viewed that way, the hypostatic union—God the Son assuming a human nature—becomes inconceivable. Yet, even with such a view of human nature, muslims do not believe in original sin or the necessity of redemption.

I don’t know if any Muslims have ever read western philosophical thought, but it almost seems one would have to have some familiarity with it in order to have a rational discussion.

Excellent insights. But I think that modern muslims must differ from ancient Islam. In the past it was muslims that were the great protectors of philosphy and aristotilian logic (which is just logic in general). Unfortunately they have abandoned this great tradition and that makes it difficult to have a rational discussion with them.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[inJESUS]

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

anyway, trinity is not understood because to them God is One , the mathematical number one…when it comes to the nature of this One, they don’t know coz the quran doesnt tell…so yes to number 1…no to any explanation of the nature of this onness coz quran does not talk about it.

 

[pro_universal]

In the past it was muslims that were the great protectors of philosphy and aristotilian logic (which is just logic in general). Unfortunately they have abandoned this great tradition and that makes it difficult to have a rational discussion with them.

Agreed.

I think Ahimsa had very good points too. I think we can all admit that the trinity is not the easiest doctrine to elaborate…you’re not going to get a one sentence explanation of “3 persons one God” that any observer will find satisfying. So if it seems that people who visit us are having difficulty, that’s a sign that we need to do even more reflecting in order to explain better.

 

[LatinCat]

pro_universal:

Agreed.

I think Ahimsa had very good points too. I think we can all admit that the trinity is not the easiest doctrine to elaborate…you’re not going to get a one sentence explanation of “3 persons one God” that any observer will find satisfying. So if it seems that people who visit us are having difficulty, that’s a sign that we need to do even more reflecting in order to explain better.

No. Excellent explanations of the Trinity have been provided over and over again by myself and other persons here at Catholic answers. The muslims with whom I have disscussed these issues do not actually respond to the things that I say. Rather, they just repeat the old worn out mantra, “that doesn’t make sense”. I think that it is a sign that they are steeped in spiritual blindness.

 

[pro_universal]

No. Excellent explanations of the Trinity have been provided over and over again by myself and other persons here at Catholic answers.

I recommend a reading of St. Augustine’s De Trinitate

If it took a man like St. Augustine a book and a lifetime to try and explain the doctrine fully, the odds are that any simple explanation is wrong. Our faith is one that demands reason, and we should have no problem reflecting over and over and explaining as many times as necessary, in as many different ways and to as many challenges as necessary.

Rather, they just repeat the old worn out mantra, “that doesn’t make sense”. I think that it is a sign that they are steeped in spiritual blindness.

This is unfair to other faiths, and it makes our job of sharing the vision of the Trinity more difficult in my opinion. It’s easy for us to say “how sensible!” because it is already our faith. The trinity is by no means an easy to grasp or readily understandable concept for any outsider or even for Christians who try to work on it from a philosophical/logical perspective.

 

[BryPGuy89]

LatinCat:

This is a good point. But, when it has been shown to be logical over and over again, to the same person, why then do they still stuff their ears. I guess perhaps they do not have eyes to see or ears to hear. Spiritual blindness is a funny thing.

You could logically explain Shintoism to me, it could sound very practical if a learned man were to teach me, doesn’t mean i’m going to drop Christianity because of the other one sounding more logical after a good teaching in the subject.