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honestquestions
Guest
If prayers supposedly have direct interaction with the physical world, why can’t they be proven after being tested on a large scale?
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Trishie
Guest
Sometimes it can be medically and scientifically proved that prayers are answered.
martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91790
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBook.html
“Healing Fire from Frozen Earth” by Paul Glynn is one of many books that document evidence where science and medicine have had to acept that a miracle has occurred.
martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91790
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBook.html
“Healing Fire from Frozen Earth” by Paul Glynn is one of many books that document evidence where science and medicine have had to acept that a miracle has occurred.
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stephe1987
Guest
Because God is a PERSON (well, technically one God in three persons), not a machine. He can choose to grant our requests, but He can also also choose NOT to grant our requests.
Also, if prayers could be “scientifically proven” it would not prove God exists; it would prove that there is a “prayer” or “request” property of the universe, namely either a) we get what we want if we use a certain formula of words, -or- b) a request is granted if enough people ask for the same thing.
Also, if prayers could be “scientifically proven” it would not prove God exists; it would prove that there is a “prayer” or “request” property of the universe, namely either a) we get what we want if we use a certain formula of words, -or- b) a request is granted if enough people ask for the same thing.
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kaid100
Guest
Actually I did hear of an experiment in a hospital which showed a positive result for prayer, although I don’t know if there were any follow-up experiments.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
You will see studies that show it to be ineffective, and while I did not read the links Trishie provided, there must be some that show the converse to be indicated.
In the end, you will never get an accurate answer to this based on christian theology alone.
Because according to the theology, prayers granted must be in God’s will.
God allows suffering for a greater good.
God can not be tested, and all that.
So, the reason prayers can not be tested is that God can not be put to the test by christian theology.
This is where I have to ask myself where theology ranks in order of the applicable means we have to organize a viewpoint.
I will number mine this way.
In the end, you will never get an accurate answer to this based on christian theology alone.
Because according to the theology, prayers granted must be in God’s will.
God allows suffering for a greater good.
God can not be tested, and all that.
So, the reason prayers can not be tested is that God can not be put to the test by christian theology.
This is where I have to ask myself where theology ranks in order of the applicable means we have to organize a viewpoint.
I will number mine this way.
- Science
- Philosophy
- Theology
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honestquestions
Guest
I clicked the first url, which took me to a forum, clicked the first link showing in it at the top which offered no medical study but rather the words of the pope, so I went back to the forum scrolled quickly through that page and could not see any other links or long text which discussed such a study. Therefore, after feeling the credibility has just lowered, I didn’t take more time to click the second link.
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honestquestions
Guest
So whatever happens, happens anyways as it most likely would? If something does happen that you prayed for (like praying to get a job position) and you get it, would you immediately attribute it to him though, since you said sometimes he grants them and sometimes he doesn’t? Although I understand that God supposedly would not grant all prayers, shouldn’t there be at least be more than others that are answered?
That would still be a huge step for people to at least believe in a supernatural claim.
The_Reginator
Active member
I find this to be rather an odd question. Here’s why:
A prayer is basically a conversation. It can take many forms, but ultimately it is a communication between us and God.
There has never been a scientific study proving that I have had a conversation with anyone. Science doesn’t study our daily conversations.
Part of our communication with God can include requests. God will decide whether or not to grant that request based upon one major thing: What is the best for our immortal souls?
If getting a job, being cured from cancer, winning a million dollars, finding the perfect spouse, etc is for the good of our immortal souls, God WILL grant our request.
If, however, that which we are asking for is NOT good for our immortal souls He will, in His infinite wisdom, love and mercy, deny our request.
Science and prayer have no connection. Unless, of course, one is praying over a scientific matter…
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William_Pitts
Guest
I know God answers prayers but I can’t prove it to anyone. I have had too many experiences where I needed divine help and received it after prayer. But these are my personal experiences and I have no proof to show you.
God’s answer isn’t always, “Here you go.” Sometimes He says, “No. I have something better in mind.”, and sometimes He says, “Not yet. When the time is right.” Who can know the mind of God or what to pray for?
Rom 8:26-29 And as well as this, the Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness, for, when we do not know how to pray properly, then the Spirit personally makes our petitions for us in groans that cannot be put into words; and he who can see into all hearts knows what the Spirit means because the prayers that the Spirit makes for God’s holy people are always in accordance with the mind of God. We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good. From the Jerusalem Bible
Can we make petitions to the Lord to ask for things? Sure. Absolutely.
The Lord’s Prayer, the Our Father is all petitions.
Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
When you believe in prayer, you begin to understand prayers and the benefits of praying. You see evidence of prayer’s effectiveness.
God bless you. May His peace be with you.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
The gold standard of scientific testing is a double-blind study. In a pharmaceutical study (for example) this means some study participants are issued the test drug, and others are issued a placebo (the control group), but neither the participants nor the doctors who issue the drugs know which is which (each dose is numbered, and the nature of the dose is unknown to everyone involved).
In a single-blind study (where the doctors know which is the drug and which is the placebo) there is concern that subconscious cues (tone of voice, posture, etc) may influence the recipient, such that s/he has some idea what is being dispensed.
Prayer defies double-blind testing. The “drug” is prayer itself, and the people doing the praying know who they are praying for (and who they are not). So, at best, you could attempt a single-blind study (where the study participants do not know if anyone is praying for them).
But can you scientifically guarantee that nobody is praying for them? Could their mothers be praying for them? Could they be praying for themselves? Could any Saint in heaven (maybe this person’s deceased grandmother) be offering prayers? Could the prayers “for the whole Church” offered at MANY Masses include this person? (duh!)
Prayer cannot be controlled like a drug. If you have some new drug, nobody has access to it except those you give it to. But everybody has access to prayer, and it is impossible to say (especially for a large study) whether prayer has happened for the control group. Thus, you have no control group, and you have no scientific test.
Such a test is scientifically impossible. You cannot control the testing environment.
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InspiritCarol
Guest
- We would have to be able to comprehend God’s motives aka have omniscience.
A. We have no means to measure the closeness of the requester in their walk with God - for example, we ask Saints or saintly people to pray for us because we just don’t have it all going on.
B. We have no means to measure the relative closeness of the request with God’s will. - The larger the scale becomes the muddier the data becomes. Rather than clarifying the matter, specific data points become corrupted when associated with non-related points.
- God very definitely and demonstrably doesn’t want us to prove it scientifically. God, who is all powerful, wants us to love Him out of our own desire, not because he is some cosmic vending machine in the sky.
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rossum
Guest
You are correct, the effects of prayer can indeed be tested. Such tests have been carried out and no effect was found. See Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.
To quote the abstract:Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
rossum
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William_Pitts
Guest
Maybe I am wrong I thought Buddhists prayed, a lot? Is the abstract you quoted produced by the same group that said, “There is no God”?
Please forgive the sarcasm…I lapse sometimes.
Peace to you
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Farsight001
Guest
The problem is that you can’t do a proper test on prayer’s effectiveness. Whenever I’m praying in a group and we pass around things to pray for, someone always decides to pray for something like “for all those who have no one else to pray for them”. Hence it is impossible to do any formal study regarding the effectiveness of prayer. The entire world would have to knowingly participate to assure it is done properly.
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rossum
Guest
Some Buddhists do, some Buddhists don’t. We have a lot more gods than you do. At most gods can grant material things - you might pray to the gods for a lottery win for example. The gods can’t get you to nirvana.
Western Buddhists tend to meditate rather than pray. Yes there have been scientific studies of meditation. Yes, it works: Regulation of the Neural Circuitry of Emotion by Compassion Meditation: Effects of Meditative Expertise
I have no idea what your question means. The link is there, together with the names of the scientists who did the study.
One thing about us science types is that we like to answer questions. Even rhetorical questions.
rossum
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fhansen
Guest
I’m not sure how it could be proven. If someone prays to God because, say, they’re deeply burdened about another person’s welfare who they’ve come to realize is filled with hatred, depression, and confusion, hopelessly spiraling down into the blackest hole, and later the one praying receives full-on explicit locutions and visions regarding the terrible abuse this person had suffered earlier in life, and this sets in motion a chain of events ultimately leading to an “intervention” so to speak, which amazingly serves to pull the person from the pit they’re in, to the extent that they’re now leading a healthy and positive life instead of being spiritually dead- most likely physically dead by now as well-how could any of it be proven, even to another believer?
And who can measure the sincerity of prayers-the level of faith from which they issue or the degree of desire from which they spring? Both of these are said to be necessary ingredients in a prayers’ effectiveness.
And who can measure the sincerity of prayers-the level of faith from which they issue or the degree of desire from which they spring? Both of these are said to be necessary ingredients in a prayers’ effectiveness.
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AntiTheist
Guest
Let’s say that I am selling my new, super-special magic key-finding rock. This is a rock that has been enchanted by actual wizards to improve your chances of finding your lost car keys! Here’s how it works: you hold it in your hands and visualize your lost keys. Then go out and look for them, and you’re sure to find them in very short order!
Now, imagine that I set up a website and include real testimonials from people who have bought the magic key-finding rock and who swear that indeed they rock works exactly like advertised. In fact, several of the testimonials state that they found their keys just minutes after using the magick key-finding rock. Further, let’s say that all of these testmonies come from completely real e-mails from real consumers that I’ve put up on my website.
Would you believe that the rock actually has power?
There was a similar stunt that was pulled by phony-psychic Uri Geller back in the day. He used to claim that everyone has psychic powers, and when he would appear on television, he would tell his audience at home to go get stopped watches and will them to work again. Inevitably, people would call in and swear that they tried the technique and found that it worked.
So, do you believe that these people actually have psychic power?
You could, if you wanted to, believe in either my magic rock or hidden psychic powers, but any non-insane person would want to first distinguish between something that really works and something that seems to work based only on anecdotal accounts.
That’s a key distinction that people don’t usually make.
If a thousand people buy my rock, a certain percentage of them are going to find their keys, and if a thousand people pick up watches that seem to be stopped, a certain percentage of them will find that they will start up again, if only temporarily. But that certain percentage was going to find their keys anyway; that certain percentage of watches was going to start when picked up anyway (fun fact: a lot of watches that have stopped will begin to tick again a little if you pick them up and futz around with them in your hands).
How do you distinguish anecdotal coincidence from something that really works?
Well, something that really works should be able to affect the world in measurable ways. If my rock did work, we should be able to test two groups, one with rocks and one without rocks, and find that the group with rocks consistently has a higher percentage of people find the keys quicker – to a statistically significant amount (that is, outside of the range of standard deviation that we would expect from regular ol’ chance).
[And actually, we could make a phony duplicate rock and do a double-blind test – once with the phony rock and once with the real thing, with the test subject unaware of which is which, just to eliminate unconscious bias]
Now surely everyone agrees with what I’m saying until it comes time to evaluate your particular superstition, prayer. No, we’re not talking about the psychological effects of prayer. Obviously Christian prayer has psychological effects, as does Jewish prayer, Hindu prayer, Buddhist meditation, and just sitting still and doing breathing exercises. That these practices have psychological effects is exactly what we’d expect, and it doesn’t tell us anything about whether there are actual supernatural entities that are being contacted by these practices.
No, what we’re talking about on this thread is the kind of prayer that people claim – all the time – to exist and have effects in the world. People wouldn’t pray for their sick grandparents to get better, for example, unless they thought that prayer “worked” on some level – and by “worked,” they don’t mean “worked” in the way that my rock works or Geller’s watch-trick worked…they don’t mean coincidence. They mean “work” as in having an actual effect on the real world.
So the question is the same: how do we go about distinguishing a real effect from a mere coincidence? And the answer is the same: we test it.
We get two groups of sick people with the same terminal disease that has a well-known rate of remission, and a clear standard deviation of remission amounts. We have a group of Christians pray for one group but not for the other. The praying folks never know or meet the test subjects, and the test subjects never know or meet the praying folks. The doctors do not know which group is being prayed for and which is not, and the test subjects do not know either.
Then we measure the results. Did the group being prayed for demonstrate a tendency for a rate of remission higher than the deviation expected for their illness?
If this prayer stuff works – “works” in the real way, that is – then we expect that, on average, the people prayed for would tend to have a much higher rate of remission. To be clear, you wouldn’t have to demonstrate that everyone prayed for got better or did better…all you would have to demonstrate is that people prayed for tend to recover significantly more often than people not prayed for.
If it worked, then you could obviously repeat this experiment dozens of times and consistently get positive results – this would be a huge area of scientific study, and the grant money would come pouring in. But of course it’s not – because prayer is nothing more than coincidence.
Now, imagine that I set up a website and include real testimonials from people who have bought the magic key-finding rock and who swear that indeed they rock works exactly like advertised. In fact, several of the testimonials state that they found their keys just minutes after using the magick key-finding rock. Further, let’s say that all of these testmonies come from completely real e-mails from real consumers that I’ve put up on my website.
Would you believe that the rock actually has power?
There was a similar stunt that was pulled by phony-psychic Uri Geller back in the day. He used to claim that everyone has psychic powers, and when he would appear on television, he would tell his audience at home to go get stopped watches and will them to work again. Inevitably, people would call in and swear that they tried the technique and found that it worked.
So, do you believe that these people actually have psychic power?
You could, if you wanted to, believe in either my magic rock or hidden psychic powers, but any non-insane person would want to first distinguish between something that really works and something that seems to work based only on anecdotal accounts.
That’s a key distinction that people don’t usually make.
If a thousand people buy my rock, a certain percentage of them are going to find their keys, and if a thousand people pick up watches that seem to be stopped, a certain percentage of them will find that they will start up again, if only temporarily. But that certain percentage was going to find their keys anyway; that certain percentage of watches was going to start when picked up anyway (fun fact: a lot of watches that have stopped will begin to tick again a little if you pick them up and futz around with them in your hands).
How do you distinguish anecdotal coincidence from something that really works?
Well, something that really works should be able to affect the world in measurable ways. If my rock did work, we should be able to test two groups, one with rocks and one without rocks, and find that the group with rocks consistently has a higher percentage of people find the keys quicker – to a statistically significant amount (that is, outside of the range of standard deviation that we would expect from regular ol’ chance).
[And actually, we could make a phony duplicate rock and do a double-blind test – once with the phony rock and once with the real thing, with the test subject unaware of which is which, just to eliminate unconscious bias]
Now surely everyone agrees with what I’m saying until it comes time to evaluate your particular superstition, prayer. No, we’re not talking about the psychological effects of prayer. Obviously Christian prayer has psychological effects, as does Jewish prayer, Hindu prayer, Buddhist meditation, and just sitting still and doing breathing exercises. That these practices have psychological effects is exactly what we’d expect, and it doesn’t tell us anything about whether there are actual supernatural entities that are being contacted by these practices.
No, what we’re talking about on this thread is the kind of prayer that people claim – all the time – to exist and have effects in the world. People wouldn’t pray for their sick grandparents to get better, for example, unless they thought that prayer “worked” on some level – and by “worked,” they don’t mean “worked” in the way that my rock works or Geller’s watch-trick worked…they don’t mean coincidence. They mean “work” as in having an actual effect on the real world.
So the question is the same: how do we go about distinguishing a real effect from a mere coincidence? And the answer is the same: we test it.
We get two groups of sick people with the same terminal disease that has a well-known rate of remission, and a clear standard deviation of remission amounts. We have a group of Christians pray for one group but not for the other. The praying folks never know or meet the test subjects, and the test subjects never know or meet the praying folks. The doctors do not know which group is being prayed for and which is not, and the test subjects do not know either.
Then we measure the results. Did the group being prayed for demonstrate a tendency for a rate of remission higher than the deviation expected for their illness?
If this prayer stuff works – “works” in the real way, that is – then we expect that, on average, the people prayed for would tend to have a much higher rate of remission. To be clear, you wouldn’t have to demonstrate that everyone prayed for got better or did better…all you would have to demonstrate is that people prayed for tend to recover significantly more often than people not prayed for.
If it worked, then you could obviously repeat this experiment dozens of times and consistently get positive results – this would be a huge area of scientific study, and the grant money would come pouring in. But of course it’s not – because prayer is nothing more than coincidence.
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davidv
Guest
This a pathetic strawman, that demonstrates that you no clue what prayer is and what is meant for.
Care to try again?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
The problem with contributing to a thread without reading the previous posts is that you might say something that has already been shown to be impossible.
You can’t do a scientific test, because you can’t control the control group, as I have already pointed out, and Farsight001 as well.
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AntiTheist
Guest
…is that people criticize you for ignoring other people, even other people who raise invalid objections.
I was all set to ignore your post, but since you insist…
There are all kinds of things we could do to adjust the protocol if it really became an issue. We could, for example, conduct the experiment only on sick agnostics (who are legitimately unsure about the claims of religion; we wouldn’t use anti-religionists) who have no living relatives or any religious friends, essentially eliminating the chance that anyone else is praying for them.
Or, if we were going to test the prayers of Catholics, we might select a group consisting entirely of sick protestants (who sign documents affirming that they don’t know any Catholics) thus essentially eliminating the chance that any other Catholics are praying for them.
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