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elizaveta01
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With a large number of differences both in their worship and their beliefs.
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Randy_Carson
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The Bible does not teach sola scriptura.Are you going to take something that is like the title of a paper and make it the whole theory?
You and I both know that there are scriptures that support the idea of Sola Scriptura. We both agree that bible is a sufficient for compitency in every good work. The difference between us is that I take only the bible to be reliably sufficient.For me Tradition is great but not inerrant. SS is not explicitly stated in the bible I will give you that.
Not. One. Verse.
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Karen107
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If you recognized the true presence in our Eucharist than there wouldn’t be any division.I think the RCC is wrong. Hopefully they will come to recognize the real presence in our Eucharist.
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Isaiah45_9
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Change subject much?Peter’s successor has made decisions without the blessings of the Orthodox, no?
Let me guess, the keys were given to an abstract authority (Faith) just like Scriptures?
Unless you are Orthodox, let the Orthodox fight their own fights. And pointing to one wrong does not justify anyone else’s wrong.
You said that sacred tradition failed. Explain then what you mean by sacred tradition and how this sacred tradition failed.
The only thing that has failed is our own ability to communicate.
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House_Harkonnen
Guest
I recognize the true presence in your Eucharist.If you recognized the true presence in our Eucharist than there wouldn’t be any division.
I recognize the RCC as a true Christian church that preaches the word, and administers the sacraments. And I hope that you are blessed and grow in the faith being served by your church.
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Karen107
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So then why can’t Lutherans and Catholics receive in each others churches? As I understood, it’s because there is a different belief behind the sacrament.I recognize the true presence in your Eucharist.
I recognize the RCC as a true Christian church that preaches the word, and administers the sacraments. And I hope that you are blessed and grow in the faith being served by your church.
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House_Harkonnen
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Not just that. We don’t accept Transubstantiation favoring sacramental union.So then why can’t Lutherans and Catholics receive in each others churches? As I understood, it’s because there is a different belief behind the sacrament.
Also, other Lutherans cannot receive in our Lutheran churches. LCMS and ELCA cannot receive in WELS churches.
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MaryT777
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Depends on the synod. My friend is an ELCA Lutheran and they have “open communion”So then why can’t Lutherans and Catholics receive in each others churches? As I understood, it’s because there is a different belief behind the sacrament.
which means a Catholic could in theory receive in their Church and I know some who have although of course an educated Catholic would not Commune outside the Catholic Church.
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elizaveta01
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Some Orthodox churches are very ethnic (mono cultural) and some aren’t.Why I’m not Eastern Orthodox and I tried, it is to mono cultural and jesus is for all people at all times
The church I currently attend has about 7 ethnic groups who hear, at least part, of every liturgy in their own language. The same is true of other Orthodox parishes I’ve attended over the years.
Some EO churches are mono cultural, but Orthodoxy isn’t.
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Karen107
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Well then if you ask me I would simply say there is a clear disunion with the body in your beliefs and from Catholic belief. So then I would then say, that’s not being in communion with the body of Christ.
Not necessarily. The confessions make clear the desire and willingness to return to communion with the Bishop of Rome. Ordain our pastors, allow us to preach the Gospel, etc. were the conditions.And to achieve that, the Catholic Church needs to give up the “expanded” modern papacy, right? But is the papacy as we see it today an unnatural development? Not according to Bl. John Cardinal Newman who explained WHY the early Church would NOT have seen or needed the same papacy that we see and need today thusly:
What I personally have stated is that there be agreement. I’ve said no pre-conditions personally.
Jon
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MaryT777
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It has been explained to me why the ELCA cannot receive in the Wels. Why not the LCMS? Are they not also confessional Lutherans?Not just that. We don’t accept Transubstantiation favoring sacramental union.
Also, other Lutherans cannot receive in our Lutheran churches. LCMS and ELCA cannot receive in WELS churches.
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House_Harkonnen
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Yes, I never claimed we were in union with the Roman Catholic Church or even that All Lutherans are in communion with each other. That would be doing our differences a disservice, and not respectful of either side.Well then if you ask me I would simply say there is a clear disunion with the body in your beliefs and from Catholic belief. So then I would then say, that’s not being in communion with the body of Christ.
Yet, we are still in the body of Christ, even as your church declares that my church is a “means of salvation”.
That is gracious on the part of your church. And I thank it for its recognizing as such.
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elizaveta01
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LCMS practices closed/close communion. ELCA Lutherans can not normally receive in LCMS churches. And most LCMS Lutherans that I know wouldn’t receive in an ELCA church even if it is allowed. Which I think it is.Not just that. We don’t accept Transubstantiation favoring sacramental union.
Also, other Lutherans cannot receive in our Lutheran churches. LCMS and ELCA cannot receive in WELS churches.
See, Randy. This is the kind of attitude, regardless of which side makes it, keeps divisions going. Rome has as much a responsibility as the Orthodox do. For one side or the other - and this applies to Lutheran / Catholic dialogue, as well - to claim it has no responsibility for division, and no role in its healing other than to receive “schismatics” back, perpetuates division.Correct. Because Peter’s successor sits on the chair of Peter. It is incumbent upon the Orthodox to maintain their communion with Rome - not the other way around.
Jon
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Karen107
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I would add this scripture relevant to that in the words our Savior gave us.Well then if you ask me I would simply say there is a clear disunion with the body in your beliefs and from Catholic belief. So then I would then say, that’s not being in communion with the body of Christ.
John 17:20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
And I am looking at this from through a bigger lens. What exactly does it mean to be One with Christ? I believe in hearts that Paul and the apostles worked very hard to become of the same mind, the mind that is the framework of the Catholic religion.
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elizaveta01
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LCMS has closed/close communion. That means that only people who belong to the LCMS or to churches that have “altar and pulpit” communion with the LCMS are allowed to commune at an LCMS church. And the ELCA does not have this.It has been explained to me why the ELCA cannot receive in the Wels. Why not the LCMS? Are they not also confessional Lutherans?
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House_Harkonnen
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It’s because the WELS and LCMS aren’t in communion.It has been explained to me why the ELCA cannot receive in the Wels. Why not the LCMS? Are they not also confessional Lutherans?
Really I cannot think of any substantial difference between the two except for the issue of who can vote in parish councils. And I pretty much agree with everything the LCMS Seminary in Fort Wayne puts out, and my pastor (WELS) uses their material occasionally.
The disunion will be worked out in its own time by our leaders in the synod. Until then, I wait prayerfully and patiently for communion with our churches.
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Karen107
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Is it? Or are we both part of the Kingdom of God? Yet the Body of Christ is the Church who has spun an offspring of believers such as those belonging the Lutheran Church.Yes, I never claimed we were in union with the Roman Catholic Church or even that All Lutherans are in communion with each other. That would be doing our differences a disservice, and not respectful of either side.
Yet, we are still in the body of Christ, even as your church declares that my church is a “means of salvation”.
That is gracious on the part of your church. And I thank it for its recognizing as such.
Not particularly as large as one might think. The central issue today is about the role of women in the Church (clergy), and now human sexuality issues. I could sit and talk to an ELCA Lutheran, a WELS Lutheran, and on the very vast majority of doctrinal issues, we would agree. In most Lutheran parishes around the world worship, the main components of the Lutheran mass would by recognizable, language differences notwithstanding.With a large number of differences both in their worship and their beliefs.
Jon
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