Why can't the impotent marry?

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Are you a Catholic?
Don’t tell me what I am or am not, that is not for you to decide. That’s arrogance and pride and a sin of false witness.
The Church does not teach that procreation is the SOLE purpose of marriage. It teaches that procreation is the primary end of marriage. From the Catechism:
1601 The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring
Except that impotent people can’t marry and the act is extremely restricted by these stupid and idiotic and inane rules so that may not be what the actual language is but that is the purpose of being so restrictive on the act of sex. Otherwise, LET PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPOTENT MARRY AND STOP IT WITH MASTURBATION BEING A SIN.

And let married couple have sex for pleasure and let them choose when they want to have a child or not.

Otherwise saying this isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches is a stupid lie, period. Anything else means the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Love has nothing to do with it. If two people want to get married but don’t want to have children they should be able to to do that with a valid marriage. But if they don’t want kids the marriage is invalid and they can’t get married.
 
Don’t tell me what I am or am not, that is not for you to decide. That’s arrogance and pride and a sin of false witness.
That is kind of a harsh response to a question, isn’t it? :o I’m assuming 1ke asked if you are a Catholic, because Catholic teaching would mean more to you if you are Catholic versus non-Catholic.
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Starwynd:
Except that impotent people can’t marry and the act is extremely restricted by these stupid and idiotic and inane rules so that may not be what the actual language is but that is the purpose of being so restrictive on the act of sex. Otherwise, LET PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPOTENT MARRY AND STOP IT WITH MASTURBATION BEING A SIN.

And let married couple have sex for pleasure and let them choose when they want to have a child or not.

Otherwise saying this isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches is a stupid lie, period. Anything else means the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Love has nothing to do with it. If two people want to get married but don’t want to have children they should be able to to do that with a valid marriage. But if they don’t want kids the marriage is invalid and they can’t get married.
You are misunderstanding some pretty clear explanations. The marriage act is unitive and procreative.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#III
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that **“it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.”**152 “This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which **man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.”**153
A person who is impotent can’t perform the marriage act. That is why they can’t marry. A sterile/infertile person can perform the marital act, and as long as it is “ordered per se” to procreation, then it is licit. So, for example, a couple for whom the wife is beyond childbearing years, can still marry, even though they know they can’t have children. However, a younger couple can’t marry, if they intend to avoid having children.

As far as your demands that we “let married people” do this or that…we can’t change the clear teaching handed down from God through the Church. It is not in the power of man to make those changes.
 
That is kind of a harsh response to a question, isn’t it? I’m assuming 1ke asked if you are a Catholic, because Catholic teaching would mean more to you if you are Catholic versus non-Catholic.
I’m sorry, usually when that question is asked it has always extremely accusatory. I am a converted atheist I haven’t even started going through RICA(sp?) yet and will probably not until sometime next year.

And the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Nothing else matters. Two people who are in love but don’t want children can’t marry. Anybody who can not have children can not marry.

Any thought of “wow she’s good looking I’d want to have sex with her” is considered a sin. Premarital sex is considered a sin. Absolutely any sort of Birth control is considered a sin. Any act of sex must end in copulation. No seed of any type must spilled or it’s a sin.

In short summary, any act of sex must be within a marriage and must be done with pro-creation in mind, period. That is the only purpose in restricting everything else, even if the Church doesn’t *directly *teach it. Otherwise it should not be so restrictive. A random thought as long as it is not acted upon shouldn’t be so bad. Masturbation shouldn’t be so bad in certain circumstances, such as for those people who have absolutely no chance to find a loving wife. And people should be able to choose when they want to have a child or not so that way the child can be certain to have a loving home rather than be an unwanted child or an abused child because the parents are not ready for children.

And I’m glad the Catholic Church is not running this country. Because so many people would be left out of being loved under these rules it’s not even funny.

But love has nothing to do with marriage.
 
I’m sorry, usually when that question is asked it has always extremely accusatory. I am a converted atheist I haven’t even started going through RICA(sp?) yet and will probably not until sometime next year.
That is fantastic. As a former atheist (and agnostic, and Presbyterian, and born-again "Bible Christian…depends on what part of my youth/young adulthood 😛 ), I am happy you are making that step. It took me a long time, even after conversion, to understand and then accept all Church teaching.
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Starwynd:
And the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Nothing else matters. Two people who are in love but don’t want children can’t marry. **Anybody who can not have children can not marry. **
I’m sorry, but you are wrong, and I’ve shown the bolded sentence is incorrect more than once.
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Starwynd:
Any thought of “wow she’s good looking I’d want to have sex with her” is considered a sin.
Probably…unless it is fleeting and you immediately turn your mind away from that lustful thought.
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Starwynd:
Premarital sex is considered a sin.
Always.
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Starwynd:
Absolutely any sort of Birth control is considered a sin.
Artificial birth control is a sin. NFP is acceptable for serious reasons.
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Starwynd:
Any act of sex must end in copulation.
Yes.
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Starwynd:
No seed of any type must spilled or it’s a sin.
Nocturnal emissions are not a sin. …and you can spill a bag of plant seeds. 😉 😃
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Starwynd:
In short summary, any act of sex must be within a marriage and must be done with pro-creation in mind, period. That is the only purpose in restricting everything else, even if the Church doesn’t *directly *teach it. Otherwise it should not be so restrictive.
They have to be oriented toward procreation “per se.” What that means is that** if** the couple is fertile at the time of the marital act, then nothing must frustrate the possibility of a child. If the couple is not fertile (either due to the time in the woman’s cycle or infertility of either party), then the marital act must be of the same sort that would result in a child if they were fertile.
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Starwynd:
A random thought as long as it is not acted upon shouldn’t be so bad.
See above. A random thought is not a sin…it’s when you entertain that thought by dwelling on it or acting on it, that it becomes a sin.
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Starwynd:
Masturbation shouldn’t be so bad in certain circumstances, such as for those people who have absolutely no chance to find a loving wife.
Sorry, but this is not the case. And desiring it to be different won’t change Church teaching.
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Starwynd:
And people should be able to choose when they want to have a child or not so that way the child can be certain to have a loving home rather than be an unwanted child or an abused child because the parents are not ready for children.
Again, spacing and/or delaying of children using NFP is licit for serious reasons. Certainly, those may be serious reasons. That is something they should discuss with their confessor.
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Starwynd:
And I’m glad the Catholic Church is not running this country. Because so many people would be left out of being loved under these rules it’s not even funny.
Not at all. Love is not precluded because someone can’t marry. Love does exist outside of marriage. Conjugal love however is not licit outside of marriage.
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Starwynd:
But love has nothing to do with marriage.
Surely, you are just being sardonic. You don’t believe that, and, of course, that is not true from a Catholic perspective.
 
Don’t tell me what I am or am not, that is not for you to decide. That’s arrogance and pride and a sin of false witness.
I didn’t “tell” you anything. I asked a question.

I don’t know if you are a Catholic or not. **That’s why I asked. ** I don’t memorize the history of every poster and couldn’t remember if you were a Catholic, a person who was inquiring through RCIA, a former Catholic or a non-Catholic who posts on these boards.

It was a simple question. Your reaction to it is quite bizarre, frankly.
Except that impotent people can’t marry and the act is extremely restricted by these stupid and idiotic and inane rules so that may not be what the actual language is but that is the purpose of being so restrictive on the act of sex. Otherwise, LET PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPOTENT MARRY AND STOP IT WITH MASTURBATION BEING A SIN.
Yes, so I repeat:

There are two ends to marriage that cannot be separated.

Masterbation is a sin because God ordered sexuality to intercourse. You seem to believe the Church can change God’s moral law. She cannot. She merely proclaims what is, She is not free to alter it.
And let married couple have sex for pleasure and let them choose when they want to have a child or not.
The Church does not teach that either of these things is immoral.
Otherwise saying this isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches is a stupid lie, period.
Well, since I provided actual Church teaching, it is quite easy to see that I am not lieing, and that what I wrote is what the Church actually does teach.
Anything else means the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Love has nothing to do with it. If two people want to get married but don’t want to have children they should be able to to do that with a valid marriage. But if they don’t want kids the marriage is invalid and they can’t get married.
You don’t seem to be open to discussing what the Church actually does teach regarding marriage.

You also seem to ignore that marriage has two ends, which cannot be separated.

So, I’m really not sure what your point is?
 
And the act of sex and marriage is for procreation only. Nothing else matters.
This is untrue and we have showed you that it untrue. Why do you persist in your insistance otherwise?
Anybody who can not have children can not marry.
This is also untrue and you have been shown that it is untrue numerous times.

I am glad that you have come to realize that God exists and will be pursuing RCIA. But, I do hope that you go into RCIA with a much more open attitude than you display here. When confronted with what the Church teaches, you cannot continue to put your fingers in your ears and hum. You must move beyond that and exercise your intellect and will towards understanding the teaching.
Any thought of “wow she’s good looking I’d want to have sex with her” is considered a sin. Premarital sex is considered a sin. Absolutely any sort of Birth control is considered a sin. Any act of sex must end in copulation. No seed of any type must spilled or it’s a sin.
This is a good start-- a good understanding of “thou shall not”.

But, marriage and sexuality within marriage were created GOOD. There is more to sexuality than what you cannot do-- the very real meaning of our sexuality when it is used for the good. I hope you will begin exploring what the nuptial union of spouses means in Catholicism and how it images the Trinity.
In short summary, any act of sex must be within a marriage and must be done with pro-creation in mind, period.
No. It must be ordered to procreation. That is not the same thing as being done with “procreation in mind.” I think you’ve moved very quickly from a lifestyle where “anything goes” to trying to embrace a lifestyle where you perceive “nothing goes.” Many former pagans in the Roman world did the same thing, and it led to heresies that regarded the flesh as bad.

Don’t go overboard in your pursuit of your newfound faith. You have a lot to learn and a lot to absorb. We never stop learning about the Faith-- it is just that deep.

Many of us here, who are further along in this lifelong journey of Faith, would love to help you learn. But, we can’t do that if you are going to continually retort with smart remarks and suspicion of our motives.

If you want to learn, we’ll help you. If you don’t, why are you here?
That is the only purpose in restricting everything else, even if the Church doesn’t *directly *teach it. Otherwise it should not be so restrictive. A random thought as long as it is not acted upon shouldn’t be so bad. Masturbation shouldn’t be so bad in certain circumstances, such as for those people who have absolutely no chance to find a loving wife. And people should be able to choose when they want to have a child or not so that way the child can be certain to have a loving home rather than be an unwanted child or an abused child because the parents are not ready for children.
Keep working on your studies. You still haven’t discovered the purpose of sex.

The pleasure we derive from the sexual union is not its purpose, it’s the by-product. Much like we get pleasure from eating-- but the purpose is to nourish our bodies. If food was not pleasurable, we would not eat it and our bodies would suffer. If sex was not pleasurable, we would not do it and would die as a species. That God of ours is a smart one.

Again, sexual union between spouses was created GOOD. But, sexual pleasure is not an end unto itself. It is the by-product of the loving union of the spouses, ordered to procreation.

That is why it is wrong to seek sexual pleasure for it’s own sake.
And I’m glad the Catholic Church is not running this country. Because so many people would be left out of being loved under these rules it’s not even funny.

But love has nothing to do with marriage.
Sex does not equal love. You seem to be equating the two.
 
This is untrue and we have showed you that it untrue. Why do you persist in your insistance otherwise?
Because of junk like not allowing impotent people to marry when they are in love.

Junk like this convinces me otherwise.
 
Starwynd,

When I entered the Church, I probably would have agreed with 80+% of what you have said. These aren’t easy teachings to accept.

If I may be so bold, I would like to recommend that you take the following approach:

Even if you don’t agree with a Church teaching, follow it in humble obedience if you decide to enter the Church. As you continue to learn and grow as a Catholic, I think you will come to understand them better, as I have. Pray, read your Bible, read the Catechism and receive the Sacraments frequently. Let God’s grace work within you.

Merry Christmas,
Robert
 
Because of junk like not allowing impotent people to marry when they are in love.
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

You perceive the Church teaching that the impotent cannot marry as the Church not “allowing” them to marry. This is not the case. They **cannot **marry. If they seek to do so, it is invalid. It does not exist.

Remember GOD is the author of the Sacraments. If the priest says the words of consecration over a PB&J sandwich-- it does not become the Eucharist. If I baptized you with Ginger Ale you are not baptized, your sins are not forgiven, and there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit no matter that you insist it is so.

If those with an impediment (any impediment) say the words of marriage vows they are no more married than a PB&J is the Eucharist.

Saying that the Church doesn’t allow an impotent person to marry is like saying God doesn’t “allow” fish to live in the desert. Fish *cannot *live in the desert. Their nature prevents them from doing so. And, camels cannot live underwater. Their nature prevents them from doing so.

So too marriage as it relates to impotence. The nature of marriage is that is includes sexual intercourse. That is an essential element of it. It is not the only element, yet it is an essential element. Just as bread and wine are essential to the Sacrament of the Echarist and water to the Sacrament of Baptism.

It’s not a matter of allowing or not allowing. The marriage is invalid by its very nature. The Church cannot change that fact at all anymore than she can “allow” fish to live in a sand dune.
 
More study on the Sacraments would probably help.

Remember, the Sacraments DO what they SIGNIFY.

The water of baptism signifies cleansing. The sacrament actually cleanses. It does what it signifies.

The sexual union of spouses images the nuptial union of Christ and the Church. It signifies the life-giving and love-giving union of the Three Persons of the Trinity AND… it does what it signifies: it gives life and love through sexual union. That’s what the Sacrament does. That is its nature. To both image and participate in the Trinity.

You (and the OP of this thread) are still thinking of marriage as a human institution. It’s not. It’s a Sacrament.

To understand why marriage is what it is, and why it isn’t what it isn’t… one must understand what Sacraments are, what they do, and why God created them.

It’s deep stuff, Starwynd. And, I’m not insulting your intelligence so please don’t think I am. It’s deep the way advanced calculus is deep. If you walked into an advanced calculus lecture, never having had even high school algebra… it wouldn’t make much sense.

Theology, God, the Sacraments… they are all deep. So, in the words of Maria Von Trapp… begin “at the very beginning, a very good place to start.”

Keep studying and keep questioning. If you don’t yet have a Catechism, get one and read it through. Then, look down at the footnotes and start reading THOSE documents. And, then you’ll look up and 15 years will have gone by… as it has for me since I entered the Church.
 
And, to add even more…

If an alien came down to earth and picked up an object on the ground… let’s say it’s a pair of tweezers… the alien would have no idea what they were or what they were for. He might make up some use for it, not the one that the tweezer-creator intended it for.

Now, relate this to sexuality. You, not knowing God, Christ, or his commandments, encountered this thing called “sex.” It’s a very powerful thing. But, you really didn’t know what it was for or how to use it as the sex-Creator (a.k.a. God) intended it. So you invented all sorts of uses for it. But, none were what the Creator created it for.

So, now, after years of forming your ideas about “sex” on secular principles and your own discovery… you find there is this completely different (and puzzling) purpose for sex.

It doesn’t compute for you. So, you tend to reject what does not fit in your experience of “sex”… instead of embracing it and saying, “wow, I wish I would have thought of that… I was using this for the wrong purpose all along.”
 
Starwynd is right, in a way.

2 baptized Catholics get married for the sole purpose to have children. There is no true emotion of ‘love’ between the two. They are just friends or something that both want kids, but they are getting older and just don’t want to date people any more. As long as they try one time to have sex with no artificial barriers to fertility, this is considered A-OK by the Church. There is no requirement to love each other under any pain of sin or anything. So really, love can possibly have nothing to do with it. Most time, it is not the case…or the same thing could happen with an arranged marriage. I don’t think the words ‘love’ are in the wedding vows, but I don’t remember…But no love, but unimpeded sex = valid marriage and ok in the eyes of the church.

2 people, madly in love, and I don’t mean ‘feeling’ love…I mean self-sacrificial love…love where if they adopted a child, it would be the bestest family ever known on the face of the earth. Father is permanantely impotent…no marriage, no matter how much love would flow from the union. Technically, its because the matter is not present for the Sacrament, but if it were able, this ‘marriage’ would be a tremendous thing for the poor adopted child and their parents.

So really, love doesn’t really figure into the equation. Love isn’t mentioned in talking about sex in the CC, but ‘unity’ of the spouses is.

So I can almost agree, that sex is for procreation for 99%, and unity is a distant 1%. It’s not the 50-50 you would think. Think about the 1930s and 40s and before…husband and wife would sleep in separate beds so the temptation to make love wouldn’t happen…this kinda proves that procreation was definately the primary reason people made love or they wouldn’t stay so separated sexually from each other. If unity was 50 percent, they would not have been separated so much of the time. Half the time lovemaking would have been for unitive purposes and 50 procreation. I think it was more like 99 and 1.

Older Church documents have similar tones, stressing babies, babies, babies, but you can have relations to quiet ‘concipusense’ or however you spell it.

Not the same vibe we get from today’s Church, so things do change…but love definately should be a part of it, but it is not a requirement, which makes marriage sound too bland and legalistic and so so far away from being a romantic thing.
 
Interesting that ForwardProgress would discuss the history of Marriage. Back when I was a person that prepared people for marriage our pastor told us the same thing. Basically, marriage was only a sacrament because of the kids it could produce. My pastor also said something like the Church is thinking about marriage, in the sense that the people that determine the beliefs of our faith were thinking that something needed to be changed, or added. That was many years ago.

In my education concerning Catholicism, I learned that, in the early church, the Apostles were confronted with problems of law, Jewish law. Acts is an excellent book to read to understand these issues. Such issues are still with us, though they have changed. To think that the Catholic faith sprung from Rome is simply wrong. Or faith is an extension of the Jewish faith. To state that the Old Testament is of lesser importance than the New Testament is not something I would expect to hear from anybody. To state that the Holy Family was not Catholic, or a good example to Catholics, would cause many Catholics to object.

Why I bring this up is that God’s laws do not change. Our understanding of them might, God may choose to reveal more to us as time goes on, but His laws do not change. Historically, one of the ways that Church teaching has changed is the understanding of the Bishops that something was wrong in the Church. Another way has been guidance from the Holy Ghost. The Apostles were guided by the Holy Ghost to minister to the gentiles, for example. They had to deal with many issues as a result.

Because God is alive, and His Spirit is in us, His Church, there will always be growing pains. The baby kicks. One such kick is the internet. People from all over are reading stuff on the internet and becoming experts, in their own mind anyway. It will be interesting to see what is born from the internet.

I believe that, according to the Church, the role of who decides what the Catholic faith is and is not currently is the job of the Bishop. Of course, it is expected that the Bishop will not teach anything that is seriously contrary to the established body of our Churches teachings, as determined by the Pope. I find it interesting that people will criticize Bishops and profess to be good Catholics.

To be a good Catholic, to be in good standing with the Catholic Church, you need to follow your Bishop. It is his job to understand and teach the Catholic Faith. Bishops have the authority to make exceptions to the teachings of Rome or add practices to our faith. While studying the Catechism, or Canon Law, or anything else, provides an understanding of the history of the Church, the Bishop has the final say.

That’s the way it is now.
 
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