Why can't the wise and learned figure out Scripture?

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mercytruth,

You make some great points. Once I was talking to a parish priest, and he told me that the biggest problem he and all the other priests he knew, is that they are simply over-committed with running the parish, and so the first thing that ends up going when there aren’t enough hours in the day, is the prayer life. And he said that when you have a priest without a prayer life, you really don’t have anything.

But I think you’re suggesting this to be a challenge for all of us. Those of us with vocations other than monastic or sisterhood have a life to live, and we are called to be holy at the same time. How to do that?

That’s the problem I’ve been working on for 11 years. How to become contemplative amid other obligations we have to meet to our families, friends, coworkers, what have you. I am ecstatic that the Lord has seen fit to gift me with this level of consciousness. I could write a book on it, but one problem is that every time I write something, it immediately seems sooo “five minutes ago” or even “five seconds ago” and I get bored with it because it seem like so much blather and I feel like it was a sign of immaturity and/or lack of faith that I wrote it in the first place, and I just want to go on with life. I’m actually trying to work that issue even right this instant as I’m trying to navigate the boundary between inspiration and willful attention and focus. I’d like to get to more of that in the thread, but all I’m thinking of while my fingers are splattering the keys all over here, is that I would like to share some poetry with you.

So without further ado I’ll end this torturous post that seems like I’ve been on it all day of ten minutes at least, so I can post other people’s words which seem so much more valuable than my own.

Alan
 
Hi, Everyone!
What an interesting thread! A lot of great thoughts jumping from mind to mind. Let me hazard a couple of my own.
So; what is it about ‘little children’ or being childlike that brings us closer to the kingdom or, possibly, the presence of God? Someone suggested something to the effect that it was because little children follow directions without question. Dear Lord! Would that my grown daughters have been such children; to say nothing of my grandson!! I don’t think that’s it. And, I don’t think that Jesus, in the scripture passage, was saying anything about a child’s ability to understand scripture.
I need to mention too that I am so pleased that even some really senior members of the Forum note that too often, it seems to me (even as new as I am,) so many of the discussions in the threads become really bogged down in minutia and bickering about vague, unsupported (by other scripture), or just plain mysterious passages in scripture. But back to my thoughts.
Here are a few words I’ve picked out of the thread so far which, I think, may help:
Code: 
                Enraptured
                Hearts Burning
                (No) Limitations of Imagination
                Divine Union
                Wondrous Love

 The two things I think children have that most adults have lost are 1)  An openness to being enraptured; i.e., a ready sense of Wonder; and, 2) Unconditional Love.  These are the things, I believe, that allow children to understand more easily than adults, the things of the Spirit and the presence of God.
 I don't think I have to give any great explanation of either of these characteristics of children.  I just wanted to toss this out and see what you all thought.  May God Bless Us All.
 
I think it’s fair to expand the topic of this thread beyond the title, to discuss contemplative or childlike thinking in general. I think we all agree that such is a good thing to seek.

So must it be for me to justify the next cross I lay upon my weary readers. This is a poem from a Jelaluddin Rumi (1207-1273). He wasn’t Catholic (at least far as I know 😉 ) but he clearly exhibits a unity consciousness which transcends religious identity. If he were Christian I’d say he was in the “kingdom” or maybe “his kingdom” if you prefer. Either way, I welcome him into my kingdom. 🙂
A Garden Beyond Paradise

Everything you see has its roots
in the unseen world.
The forms may change,
yet the essence remains the same.

Every wondrous sight will vanish,
every sweet word will fade.
But do not be disheartened,
The Source they come from is eternal—
growing, branching out,
giving new life and new joy.

Why do you weep?—
That Source is within you,
and this whole world
is springing up from it.

The Source is full,
its waters are ever-flowing;
Do not grieve,
drink your fill!
Don’t think it will ever run dry—
This is the endless Ocean!

From the moment you came into this world,
a ladder was placed in front of you
that you might transcend it.

From earth, you became plant,
from plant you became animal.
Afterwards you became a human being,
endowed with knowledge, intellect and faith.

Behold the body, born of dust—
how perfect it has become!

Why should you fear its end?
When were you ever made less by dying?

When you pass beyond this human form,
no doubt you will become an angel
and soar through the heavens!

But don’t stop there.
Even heavenly bodies grow old.

Pass again from the heavenly realm
and plunge into the ocean of Consciousness.
Let the drop of water that is you
become a hundred mighty seas.

But do not think that the drop alone
becomes the Ocean—
the Ocean, too, becomes the drop!
 
Rumi was the founder of the Mevlevi or what we call the ‘Whirling Dervishes’ - an Islamic Sect. I think he was at one time, like some of our own Catholic Mystics, excommunicated (from traditional Islam) for having what some thought of as heretical ideas. I love Rumi’s writings. What a great love for God he had! May God Bless Us All.
 
Thanks for all the good points. toosan1967: you really brought out a lot of what we have been saying about what it means to be childlike. But I think it really does go back to dependence. As a child, I never worried about my outfits, what I would have for dinner, whether I would have a roof over my head. But my mom I am sure worried or at least had to think about them. She had the PLAN, and I was just part of it.

This is how it is to be with God. He has the plan, He has the blueprints, and we are to be His children in being a part of it. We tend to have difficulty trusting Him with our adult lives the way we trusted our parents with our lives as children, but we have to find a way, because this is what He asks of us. I am so guilty I cannot even admit how much I am struggling with this right now, so I am very thankful for this thread.

Worrying about things is also something that the child does not do, but in adulthood we tend to get too caught up in what we perceive to be our needs and wants. I say perceive because God knows us better than we know ourselves. Christ cautions us about worrying in Luke 12:22-34. Verse 34 also goes back to the original points in the thread. If we place our treasure in being seen as wise and learned, then our heart will be consumed by our pride and vanity. But if we instead focus on understanding Scripture for the sake of God’s Kingdom, then our heart is with Him, and He will guide us.

He said to (his) disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life and what you will eat, or about your body and what you will wear.
23
For life is more than food and the body more than clothing.
24
Notice the ravens: they do not sow or reap; they have neither storehouse nor barn, yet God feeds them. How much more important are you than birds!
25
Can any of you by worrying add a moment to your lifespan?
26
If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest?
27
Notice how the flowers grow. They do not toil or spin. But I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of them.
28
If God so clothes the grass in the field that grows today and is thrown into the oven tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you, O you of little faith?
29
As for you, do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not worry anymore.
30
All the nations of the world seek for these things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31
Instead, seek his kingdom, and these other things will be given you besides.
32
Do not be afraid any longer, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.
33
Sell your belongings and give alms. Provide money bags for yourselves that do not wear out, an inexhaustible treasure in heaven that no thief can reach nor moth destroy.
34
For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be.
 
Excellent Points JB! Perhaps I should have added a third characteristic of children: Abandonment. Their ability to abandon themselves of all cares. In other words, to enter into the present moment fully. To be enraptured (lost in wonder) in the present moment. Being fully aware of the Wondrous Things (and presence) of God. Getting closer?
 
toosan1967 said:
Excellent Points JB! Perhaps I should have added a third characteristic of children: Abandonment. Their ability to abandon themselves of all cares. In other words, to enter into the present moment fully. To be enraptured (lost in wonder) in the present moment. Being fully aware of the Wondrous Things (and presence) of God. Getting closer?
Click to expand...
This is definitely what I am getting at. Contemplation and meditation are tools for us to use in abandoning ourselves and our worries into God’s love. We become so focused on Him that we are relieved of those things that we would otherwise worry about. Prayer life, without question, is central to becoming more childlike.
 
You need faith to understand the bible. For the longest time I had no traditional faith and came to all sort of wild and bizarre interpretations. It is only when I had faith in what the Church teaches I could understand it.

The wise and learned cannot have faith usually. So they can’t understand it. They want novel interpretations but they really need to have childlike faith that what the Church teaches is true. They see bowing down to authority and tradition as mind control and something deplorable.

It’s not much of a surprise that most intellectuals are revolutionaries at heart.
 
I think that another aspect - connected to this idea of childlike simplicity, trust etc is how a child will accept something and then go and DO. The child, right or wrong, will generally tend to ACT on what they believe - on what they have been told by another.
Children are “action oriented”. Anyone who has been around little ones much recognizes this…especially if they are in any sort of group.😉

Our faith also is action oriented - or should be. There are many great saints who are saints, not for what they wrote but for what they understood and DID. Look at the excellent modern example of Mother Theresa of Calcutta. She did not sit an talk the talk, instead she rose and walked the walk.

So - Belief and Trust, linked to action is necessary - more so than intellectual understanding.

Peace
James
 
I thought I should maybe just say that if I, or others here, seem to be getting “down” on the intellectual and “wise” types…I apologize.

Certainly there is room and even need for such people. God calls people to vocations of Scholarly study as well.

Peace
James
 
James,

I really appreciate your last two comments.

Sometimes one has to ‘discern the spirits’

When we are speaking on the subject of ‘mysticism’ we have to discern the ‘spirits’, and that involves the study of scripture.

There is some mysticism that is rooted in the Kabbalah, and/or Sufism that is a contrary to the spirit of Jesus Christ.

One could do some research and see that there are many ‘antichrists’ or self-professed Messiahs that have arisen out of the mysticism of Kabbalah. Sabbatai Zevi is one of the more notorious from which the dervishes derive their beginnings.
 
mercytruth said:
James,

I really appreciate your last two comments.

Sometimes one has to ‘discern the spirits’

When we are speaking on the subject of ‘mysticism’ we have to discern the ‘spirits’, and that involves the study of scripture.

There is some mysticism that is rooted in the Kabbalah, and/or Sufism that is a contrary to the spirit of Jesus Christ.

One could do some research and see that there are many ‘antichrists’ or self-professed Messiahs that have arisen out of the mysticism of Kabbalah. Sabbatai Zevi is one of the more notorious from which the dervishes derive their beginnings.
Click to expand...
Indeed, one has to discern the Spirits. This is something that can be very troubling for many people which is why so many rely on others to point them (not necessarily a bad thing). However, what everyone should understand and use is the core value of Love which underpins all of Scripture and indeed our entire relationship with each other and with God.
Without this core understanding of Love (so ably expressed in the NT - but too often overlooked) one can easily be misled - even within the pages of the bible.

Peace
James
 
During my “dark night,” so many things happened that were astronomically just beyond bizarre that I had no idea what was driving me or causing me some of the experiences I was getting. The things I ended up doing even just a couple months ago, I’m just glad I didn’t get locked up again. They’d have institutionalized me for sure, not knowing that I was just on the verge of receiving complete healing. (Note I did not say “management” or “control” but “healing.” Medicine can control, but not heal, mental illness.)

Strangely, though, now that I am at peace, everything fits together. Even the most troubling, bizarre, scary, and yes even dangerous and/or illegal things, all suddenly have their place. Whatever spirits drove me to those activities, I just knew I wasn’t driving. It was as if I was experiencing myself doing these things from a very realistic hologram-ish situation. But now, as I go about normal activities, now and then I can “feel” how these things had prepared me for this new existence.

Alan
 
It seems we have moved from the topic of contemplative prayer into how we might bring the contemplative life into our daily affairs; our work, our other responsibilities in the world; the ‘doing’ or action required of us in the physical world: all this while maintaining our spiritual interaction with God. It has been suggested that this may not be possible. Maybe not. But, we may begin our day with a simple prayer asking God to grant us the awareness of His presence and the strength to meet the obligations He has ordained for us in this day. And that we may enjoy performing those tasks as we do them. Then we abandon our selves to those tasks, trusting that He will reward us, perhaps even a few times throughout the day, for doing that which He wills for us in this day.

But even before that; we might contemplate the following:
Code: 
                             " Your enjoyment of the world is never right till every morning you
                               awake in heaven; see yourself in your Father's palace; and look
                               upon the skies and the earth and the air as celestial joys; having
                               a reverend esteem of all, as if you were among the angles.  The
                               bride of a monarch, in her husband's chamber, has no such causes
                               of delight as you."  Thomas Traherne
A child’s understanding doesn’t have anything to do with thinking (as in the thought and reasoning of the child) but rather in being at the disposal of God’s will (as the lilies of the field and the birds of the air) and the awareness that all is of and in God. Thoughts? May God Bless Us All.
 
AlanFromWichita said:
During my “dark night,” so many things happened that were astronomically just beyond bizarre that I had no idea what was driving me or causing me some of the experiences I was getting. The things I ended up doing even just a couple months ago, I’m just glad I didn’t get locked up again. They’d have institutionalized me for sure, not knowing that I was just on the verge of receiving complete healing. (Note I did not say “management” or “control” but “healing.” Medicine can control, but not heal, mental illness.)

Strangely, though, now that I am at peace, everything fits together. Even the most troubling, bizarre, scary, and yes even dangerous and/or illegal things, all suddenly have their place. Whatever spirits drove me to those activities, I just knew I wasn’t driving. It was as if I was experiencing myself doing these things from a very realistic hologram-ish situation. But now, as I go about normal activities, now and then I can “feel” how these things had prepared me for this new existence.

Alan
Click to expand...
Alan, you are so correct about management, or control, but true healing is from God. I do know of what you speak. How we get from the dark night into the light oftentimes takes several detours.

God’s peace.
 
toosan1967 and others,

The various thoughts regarding what it is like to be as a child are very instructive. This one is very good too, except that I might say that everything is not yet in God, but that God’s ultimate purpose for all of creation is that, “God might be all in all”.

*A child’s understanding doesn’t have anything to do with thinking (as in the thought and reasoning of the child) but rather in being at the disposal of God’s will (as the lilies of the field and the birds of the air) and the awareness **that all is **of and in God. *

God’s peace.
 
toosan1967 said:
It seems we have moved from the topic of contemplative prayer into how we might bring the contemplative life into our daily affairs; our work, our other responsibilities in the world; the ‘doing’ or action required of us in the physical world: all this while maintaining our spiritual interaction with God. It has been suggested that this may not be possible. Maybe not. But, we may begin our day with a simple prayer asking God to grant us the awareness of His presence and the strength to meet the obligations He has ordained for us in this day. And that we may enjoy performing those tasks as we do them. Then we abandon our selves to those tasks, trusting that He will reward us, perhaps even a few times throughout the day, for doing that which He wills for us in this day.
Click to expand...
You are right, and I’m loving it. I think there are many like me who thirst for meaningful dialog and fellowship on these things. In fact, I went to the “suggestion box” forum and suggested that CAF creates a contemplative/mysticism forum because it can be hard to talk about this stuff when we are being scrutinized and challenged by those who have not experienced the contemplative mindset. There is no written set of rules and guidelines that govern these sorts of things. They did it for the Traditional Catholics, so I’m hoping it will go for us.

One poster did bring up a legitimate concern over leaving things wide open for personal revelation, but I think we can manage that.
Code: 
                             " Your enjoyment of the world is never right till every morning you
                               awake in heaven; see yourself in your Father's palace; and look
                               upon the skies and the earth and the air as celestial joys; having
                               a reverend esteem of all, as if you were among the angles.  The
                               bride of a monarch, in her husband's chamber, has no such causes
                               of delight as you."  Thomas Traherne
Click to expand...
:extrahappy:

YESSSSSSSS!!!

:dancing: :dancing:

THISSSSSSSS is EXACTLY on target for how I’ve been feeling for several weeks now.

No more guesswork, it’s obvious as the nose on an airplane this is a permanent change.’

My psychiatrist hasn’t even asked how I’m doing for a couple months now. We shoot the breeze over religion, politics, comedy, music, family life, have a few laughs, and for the first time in 11 years he didn’t ask and I said at the end of the meeting, “btw I’m doing very well” and without missing a beat he said, “I know; I can tell.” Same thing for several other meetings since.
A child’s understanding doesn’t have anything to do with thinking (as in the thought and reasoning of the child) but rather in being at the disposal of God’s will (as the lilies of the field and the birds of the air) and the awareness that all is of and in God. Thoughts? May God Bless Us All.
Click to expand...
That’s a bit like what James said, too, and I think it’s an excellent point. When kids get the intent to do something, they don’t sit around stewing over it or lament having such a full calendar, they just go for it!

That kind of reminds me of Peter. He may not have done the right things all the time, but ***he had the right heart and didn’t hesitate to act.***h Plus, he knew how to navigate among people and survive, as evidenced by his denial of Jesus. Nobody can tell me that the people accusing Peter were intellectually convinced by his denial, but he got away and if he hadn’t, we’d have had no rock on which Jesus could found His Church.

Peter was a real “strike first, questions later” kind of dude, like rushing to wrong conclusions and cutting off the servant’s ear. The Christ consciousness embodied in Jesus IMO actually needed that to happen, because that was part of the story before they ever acted it out and wrote it. Remember God can’t tell time, or for those who don’t like that verbage at least He is not bound by time. Of course He knows what’s going to happen; He already is that happening.

Alan
 
mercytruth said:
toosan1967 and others,

The various thoughts regarding what it is like to be as a child are very instructive. This one is very good too, except that I might say that everything is not yet in God, but that God’s ultimate purpose for all of creation is that, “God might be all in all”.

*A child’s understanding doesn’t have anything to do with thinking (as in the thought and reasoning of the child) but rather in being at the disposal of God’s will (as the lilies of the field and the birds of the air) and the awareness **that all is ***of and in God.

God’s peace.
Click to expand...
Could you please expand on this? I’m starting to learn that when other people have different points of view that seem to go against mine, they are often using slightly different shades of meaning here.

For example, in my speech I would say that God IS all, and all IS God, so right off the bat I wasn’t sure what you were writing. I’m interested to hear your ideas on how God isn’t in all yet (unless that’s not what you said – you said “might”) and what would be the difference in any given thing as to whether God was in it or not. And do you mean objects, ideas, people, groups of people, etc.?

These are the kinds of discussions I think we could love to have in a contemplative section, but meanwhile I’m delighted CAF lets us share like this here in the Scripture forum.

Alan
 
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