Why can't we be saved by "works" - is it because our works are "tainted by sin"?

[Jon_S_1]

That is true, but Purgatory is not a “level” of heaven – it is a purifying stage that comes before heaven and the Beatific Vision.

Of course that is my point. That is why there are not levels in heaven. Purgatory is however not hell and not beatific vision so I’d argue it is some part of Gods heavenly kingdom. It is sometimes described as the coat room of heaven. I think that’s a fitting analogy.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It simply means you get what you deserve in Heaven… Levels of Glory: example a Martyr would get more glory in Heaven than say a bad sinner who repented on his Deathbed.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don’t know, or whether out of the body, I don’t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2

The third heaven means “heaven” as we typically call it.

The first heaven is the sky, the second heaven is space, and the third heaven is where God dwells.

Heaven is not about our glory. There will be no selfishness, envy, or vanity there. No one will care who got there by martyrdom and who got there via purgatory.

All we will care about is worshiping God and enjoying the comfort of the beatific vision. All else pales in comparison.

 

[Techno2000]

The third heaven means “heaven” as we typically call it.

The first heaven is the sky, the second heaven is space, and the third heaven is where God dwells.

Heaven is not about our glory. There will be no selfishness, envy, or vanity there. No one will care who got there by martyrdom and who got there via purgatory.

All we will care about is worshiping God and enjoying the comfort of the beatific vision. All else pales in comparison.

Well if there are no degrees of Glory in Heaven then the Catholic Church should not have approved the Rosary.

Promise : 10#

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven.

 

[Techno2000]

The third heaven means “heaven” as we typically call it.

The first heaven is the sky, the second heaven is space, and the third heaven is where God dwells.

Your personal interpretation.

 

[Micosil]

Your personal interpretation.

No, actually that interpretation seems sound and rooted in tradition. From The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:

12:2 I know a man: Although his language is indirect, 12:7 makes it clear that Paul is speaking about his own experience. fourteen years ago: Corresponds approximately to A.D. 42, when Paul was in Antioch (Acts 11:25-26) or Jerusalem (Acts 11:30). See introduction: Author and Date. the third heaven: Reflects a common Jewish tradition that the Lord stacked the “heavens” three levels high: (1)the first heaven is the atmosphere of birds and clouds; (2) above that stands the realm of the sun and stars; (3) and beyond that lies the dwelling of God. Paul’s journey took him to the highest heaven, “Paradise” (12:3), where he caught a glimpse of eternal glory.

 

[Techno2000]

Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well if there are no degrees of Glory in Heaven then the Catholic Church should not have approved the Rosary.

Promise : 10#

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven.

Yes. We all receive a high degree of glory in heaven. The rosary helps us get there. Everyone in heaven is at the highest glory.

This does not indicate differing levels of heaven.

I have looked more into this and it sounds like the council of Florence describes differing degrees of glory.

Basically that we can prepare ourselves here to better receive the beatific vision.

That said all men will find their full happiness in the beatific vision. Which seems to me something different than you were describing, although perhaps we just missed each other.

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

 

[steve_b]

As Catholics we are often told by Protestants that the reason we cannot be saved by works is because our works are ‘sinful’ or ‘tainted by sin’ or something along those lines. These Protestants speak with such confidence that you’d think Paul actually taught such a thing. But it turns out that Paul doesn’t ever talk like this. It is true that Paul talks about our sinfulness and that Paul talks about faith justifying us “apart from works,” the fact is Paul never says the works don’t save because they are somehow stained.

Here is a blog post where a few of the key Protestant texts (including Ephesians 2:8) is briefly examined.

Any thoughts are welcome.

It’s always amazing to me why Protestants always leave out v 10

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I usually respond to them by saying, try NOT doing (good works) which God prepared in advance for us to do, and see what happens at the end of one’s life.

 

[Techno2000]

Yes. We all receive a high degree of glory in heaven. The rosary helps us get there. Everyone in heaven is at the highest glory.

This does not indicate differing levels of heaven.

I have looked more into this and it sounds like the council of Florence describes differing degrees of glory.

Basically that we can prepare ourselves here to better receive the beatific vision.

That said all men will find their full happiness in the beatific vision. Which seems to me something different than you were describing, although perhaps we just missed each other.

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.a/6a010535ce1cf6970c019affb8211d970c-pi
beatific vision

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s always amazing to me why Protestants always leave out v 10

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I usually respond to them by saying, try NOT doing (good works) which God prepared in advance for us to do, and see what happens at the end of one’s life.

So frustrating that they don’t quote v 10!

 

[guanophore]

As Catholics we are often told by Protestants that the reason we cannot be saved by works is because our works are ‘sinful’ or ‘tainted by sin’ or something along those lines. These Protestants speak with such confidence that you’d think Paul actually taught such a thing. But it turns out that Paul doesn’t ever talk like this. It is true that Paul talks about our sinfulness and that Paul talks about faith justifying us “apart from works,” the fact is Paul never says the works don’t save because they are somehow stained.

HereHe is a blog post where a few of the key Protestant texts (including Ephesians 2:8) is briefly examined.

Any thoughts are welcome.

Paul counts all his “works”/achievements as “dung”. That seems pretty tainted…

Philippians 3:7 Howbeit what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may gain Christ, 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

He writes that there is “no good thing” in his flesh:

Romans 7:18 For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not. 19For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. 20Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

How can one’s works save them when there is not in us which is good?

 

[fred_conty]

Sanctifying grace admits of different levels otherwise we could not grow in sanctifying grace, it would be just the same level for everyone. But that is not the case. We do grow in sanctifying grace which is the participation of the life of God in our soul.

Mary is the prime example of this for she is full of grace.

To merit by our good works means to merit more grace. Some say we merit heaven. But this is not so. The initial grace, the very first grace, we are given we do not merit, but are given as a free gift from God. The reason we do not merit the first grace by our good works is because we can only merit supernatural graces only after we have become supernatural people. An ordinary unbaptised person cannot merit a supernatural grace since he has no basis for this … he is not a child of God. Only a child of God in the state of sanctifying grace can merit(has the right) supernatural grace.

It is the degree of supernatural sanctifying grace we possess that determines the degree we participate in the direct vision of God. Tho all in heaven have the vision, those who have more sanctifying grace will have a greater degree of participation in that vision. And this where merit comes in … our good works, which include the sacraments, help us to grow in grace which the degree of this vision depends upon. So it is true to say that those who do less good works will have less power to enjoy this heavenly vision, and those who gave more in life will have more power to enjoy this heavenly vision. We know that Mary has the highest enjoyment of this vision for she was full of grace.

So from this understanding of less/more sanctifying grace we then have different levels of participation(enjoyment) of heaven(vision) depending on merit of good works.

 

[hu324b]

Because only the sacrifice of Christ makes us worthy - no works by any human being can make them worthy - its vanity and self pride that makes people think they can - God wants a humble heart not a proud one.

 

[steve_b]

Because only the sacrifice of Christ makes us worthy - no works by any human being can make them worthy - its vanity and self pride that makes people think they can - God wants a humble heart not a proud one.

That’s why Jesus taught through Paul,

Eph 2:10
10 *For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Since God creates us to do good works, that He prepared in advance for us to do in Christ Jesus, if we don’t do what we are created to do THEN Jesus said*
Matthew 3:10

Luke 13:7

*IOW doing good works isn’t just a suggestion.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That’s why Jesus taught through Paul,

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Since God creates us to do good works, that He prepared in advance for us to do in Christ Jesus, if we don’t do what we are created to do THEN Jesus said
Matthew 3:10

Luke 13:7

*IOW doing good works isn’t just a suggestion.

Your conflating walking the Christian walk and saying yes to salvation to actually earning salvation.

They are different.

Without Christ’s gift, we could never do anything toward salvation.

 

[steve_b]

Your *conflating walking the Christian walk *and saying yes to salvation to actually earning salvation.

They are different.

Without Christ’s gift, we could never do anything toward salvation.

It’s NOT about conflating the doing of good works, and it’s not about earning salvation. The simple point is, we are to do what we are created by God to do. If we don’t do what God created in advance for us to do, THEN we go against HIM and how He made us.

Paul is making a distinction in Eph 2:8-10 between work and good works.