Why can't we change our decision to accept or reject God after we die?

[tonyrey]

It is certainly possible. But if we take it as a mere story-telling device, then it really doesn’t matter whether the rich man was in hell or purgatory anyway. Only the message on the importance of doing good works/works of charity could be taken away from the passage.

But if we are to consider the story is from a true incident, given the information, I think then purgatory seems the more plausible interpretation of the rich man’s whereabouts at that time.

God Bless

God’s justice is reconciled with His mercy in the fact that he forgives us **as **we forgive others. The prayer He gave to us should be our guide as to anyone’s prospects for hell! There is always hope for us if we forgive others because “To err is human; to forgive, divine”…

 

[tonyrey]

You know I never thought of this point, but why would not this be purgatory? If the rich man does not even ask to be taken from that place, maybe he knows the punishment is for a time and he deserves it. Maybe he wants to spare his siblings this “trial by fire?”
Thoughts?

I agree. Those who are in hell are concerned only about themselves. That is why they choose to exist in “splendid isolation” from God.

 

[TrueLight]

I agree. Those who are in hell are concerned only about themselves. That is why they choose to exist in “splendid isolation” from God.

The purgatory interpretation is very helpful for me because I sometimes struggle with the whole idea of purgatory and this passage makes a lot of sense if it is referring to purgatory.

 

[tonyrey]

All perfection is relative except divine perfection.

What do you believe our purpose is?

Life in heaven is dynamic and creative not static and passive.

There is nothing to create in heaven, heaven knows no want, heaven is already perfect.

So what does heaven consist of? Spiritual Inactivity?

To develop our capacity for love, creativity and appreciation of beauty.

Those are merely earthly means to something greater, they are not our purpose.

What is greater than love?

 

[tonyrey]

Those who are in hell are concerned only about themselves. That is why they choose to exist in “splendid isolation” from God.

It certainly makes more sense that the belief that we are instantly blessed or damned!

 

[vz71]

Did he say our eternal destiny is based on an **instantaneous **decision?

Well…yes. didn’t you read the testimony?

He was unaware of how much time had passed, but he was taken through the totality of his life and in every instance it was explained where the failing was.
He was told the judgement, and he agreed to it…an instant decision.

But besides that, he was aware of the failings beforehand and had made his mind up to give excuses. But when faced with truth, excuses just cannot be given.

Is it your intention to continue moving the target?

 

[tonyrey]

This story is in Luke 16. Verse 22 clearly says that the rich man was in hell. Besides, if he was simply in Purgatory he wouldn’t be so concerned about his brothers suffering the same fate. In Purgatory, we know that we will eventually get to heaven after our (name removed by moderator)erfections have been purged. Also, the rich man going to hell for failing to help Lazarus is another illustration of Jesus’ teaching here (Take note of v. 44-45.)
[bibledrb]Matthew 25:31-46[/bibledrb]

I wonder how many people never help anyone at any time in their life…

I think our fascination with - and dread of - hell should be outweighed by confidence in the infinite power of God’s love revealed on the Cross.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

What do you believe our purpose is?

I believe our purpose is the one which the Catholic Faith teaches the Creator made us for namely: To know, love and serve God and be with Him forever in Heaven.

So what does heaven consist of? Spiritual Inactivity?

Perfect communion with God.

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

 

[Binary]

Once you have reached perfection what more is there to change and grow into?

Heaven is the final destination of our life’s journey, it is a place of eternal rest.

What do you think the point of human existence is?

It is to be with God in Heaven, in heaven we will have fulfilled our purpose. We will be in prefect union with God which is about as opposite to been reduced to a one dimensional thing as I can imagine.

I think that the point of human existence is to live our lives in such a way as to prepare us for perfect union with God. I also think that such a union is far greater than we can imagine. The church teaches us that our bodies, wills, and intellects will be perfected in heaven. What’s the point of that if they will never again be used? You say that heaven is perfect bliss, expressed as a static state of joyfulness. There is no dignity in being reduced to a state where one can’t think or act. I’d prefer complete annihilation to what you suggest.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

I think that the point of human existence is to live our lives in such a way as to prepare us for perfect union with God. I also think that such a union is far greater than we can imagine. The church teaches us that our bodies, wills, and intellects will be perfected in heaven. What’s the point of that if they will never again be used? You say that heaven is perfect bliss, expressed as a static state of joyfulness. There is no dignity in being reduced to a state where one can’t think or act. I’d prefer complete annihilation to what you suggest.

Perhaps you are to good for heaven!

Our wills been perfected will be in perfect harmony with the will of God in heaven, our action will be one of perpetual adoration of God. There is nothing to think about or discover because everything is known through God.

Do not make the mistake of loving the journey more than the destination, words cannot begin to describe the joys of heaven and truly our human minds cannot adequately imagine it.

 

[Luke_K]

I think that the point of human existence is to live our lives in such a way as to prepare us for perfect union with God. I also think that such a union is far greater than we can imagine. The church teaches us that our bodies, wills, and intellects will be perfected in heaven. What’s the point of that if they will never again be used? You say that heaven is perfect bliss, expressed as a static state of joyfulness. There is no dignity in being reduced to a state where one can’t think or act. I’d prefer complete annihilation to what you suggest.

This talk of eternity makes me think of Han Solo encased in carbonite (from Star Wars). In heaven we’ll all be frozen, static statues gazing at God, with no ability to interact, think, or will.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe our purpose is the one which the Catholic Faith teaches the Creator made us for namely: To know, love and serve God and be with Him forever in Heaven.

That implies that our life in heaven is dynamic and creative!

Perfect communion with God.

Only with God?

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

“The happiness of heaven is essentially unchangeable; still it admits of some** accidental** changes. Thus we may suppose that the blessed experience special joy when they receive greater veneration from men on earth. In particular, a certain **growth **in knowledge by experienceis not excluded; for instance, as time goes on, new free actions of men may become known to the blessed, or personal observation and experience may throw a new light on things already known. And after the last judgment accidental **beatitude will receive some increase **from the union of soul and body, and from the sight of the new heaven and the earth.”

So heaven is not static and passive…

 

[tonyrey]

I think that the point of human existence is to live our lives in such a way as to prepare us for perfect union with God. I also think that such a union is far greater than we can imagine. The church teaches us that our bodies, wills, and intellects will be perfected in heaven. What’s the point of that if they will never again be used? You say that heaven is perfect bliss, expressed as a static state of joyfulness. There is no dignity in being reduced to a state where one can’t think or act. I’d prefer complete annihilation to what you suggest.

Precisely! It sound more like hell…

 

[Binary]

Perhaps you are to good for heaven!

Our wills been perfected will be in perfect harmony with the will of God in heaven, our action will be one of perpetual adoration of God. There is nothing to think about or discover because everything is known through God.

Do not make the mistake of loving the journey more than the destination, words cannot begin to describe the joys of heaven and truly our human minds cannot adequately imagine it.

There are few things more harmful to faith than bad theology touted as truth. If the only information I had about Christianity came from you, I would reject the religion out of hand as absurd.

 

[tonyrey]

There is nothing to think about or discover because everything is known through God.

The death of the intellect! This sounds more like Buddhism than Christianity.

 

[TrueLight]

Perhaps you are to good for heaven!

Our wills been perfected will be in perfect harmony with the will of God in heaven, our action will be one of perpetual adoration of God. There is nothing to think about or discover because everything is known through God.

Do not make the mistake of loving the journey more than the destination, words cannot begin to describe the joys of heaven and truly our human minds cannot adequately imagine it.

Besides the constant worship of God, we have no idea what else we will be doing in heaven.

Before Adam sinned, he was given work to do in the Garden of Eden. He did not toil or suffer but he had enjoyable work.

Genesis 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

He named the animals, he took care of the garden.

For all we know we might be helping to create galaxies!

 

[Betterave]

There are few things more harmful to faith than bad theology touted as truth. If the only information I had about Christianity came from you, I would reject the religion out of hand as absurd.

Many reject Christianity. Nonetheless, if Christianity is true, your rejection doesn’t change that. Similarly I think many people don’t like the idea of hell, so they call it “bad theology” and choose not to believe in it. I believe St. Faustina once had a vision of hell and it was revealed to her that its denizens were mostly (or often - I can’t remember exactly) those who had chosen not to believe in hell. IOW, I think you should exercise more caution with regard to accusations of ‘bad theology.’ Certainly, just saying it’s bad doesn’t make it so.

 

[Binary]

Many reject Christianity. Nonetheless, if Christianity is true, your rejection doesn’t change that. Similarly I think many people don’t like the idea of hell, so they call it “bad theology” and choose not to believe in it. I believe St. Faustina once had a vision of hell and it was revealed to her that its denizens were mostly (or often - I can’t remember exactly) those who had chosen not to believe in hell. IOW, I think you should exercise more caution with regard to accusations of ‘bad theology.’ Certainly, just saying it’s bad doesn’t make it so.

I hope that my questions (or perhaps Brendan’s failure to answer them with anything other than an assertion) illustrate that a Han-Solo-in-carbonite heaven is incompatible with our knowledge of the goodness of reason and order.

My statement of rejection is analogous to Dostoyevsky’s conclusion, “only I must respectfully return him the ticket.” He couldn’t make sense of the suffering in the world, and so rejected the idea of God. I can’t make sense of the man-as-object version of Heaven, and so would similarly reject the whole system if I didn’t have good reason to think that the idea is nonsensical.

 

[seagal]

I wonder how many people never help anyone at any time in their life…

I think our fascination with - and dread of - hell should be outweighed by confidence in the infinite power of God’s love revealed on the Cross.

I agree with you. But I think there’s a very fine line between hope in God’s mercy and assuming it. We shouldn’t become complacent

 

[Betterave]

I hope that my questions (or perhaps Brendan’s failure to answer them with anything other than an assertion) illustrate that a Han-Solo-in-carbonite heaven is incompatible with our knowledge of the goodness of reason and order.

That’s a strange criticism: he answered your questions with an assertion. What were you expecting/wanting? Generally that’s just how one does answer questions: with assertions. Moreover I think his assertions were informative and responsive to your question, whereas your counter-assertion - essentially, “I think that’s bad theology” - was not.

My statement of rejection is analogous to Dostoyevsky’s conclusion, “only I must respectfully return him the ticket.” He couldn’t make sense of the suffering in the world, and so rejected the idea of God. I can’t make sense of the man-as-object version of Heaven, and so would similarly reject the whole system if I didn’t have good reason to think that the idea is nonsensical.

I’m afraid I can’t quite parse your last sentence here. Could you try to state more clearly what you’re trying to say?