Why Can't Women Become Priests?

[stillwater]

Maybe, just maybe, because incest was the only way to “be fruitful and multiply” during the times of Adam and of Noah? The first time we hear God talk of incest is to forbid it in Deuteronomy.

yes it was at some point in the bible. i could point out one incident and other things aside from incest that aren’t practiced today but was acceptable at that time. but i yet have to find a suitable thread to post those points.

Because, as in Jesus’ time, they still aren’t males.

whatever

CCC 1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself.** For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.**

yes i’ve read that and believe it was posted somewhere in this thread. so their only reason is “tradition”

I’m not sure what relevance this has. You are engaging in a discussion, but not making any points that are easy to grasp. If you want apologetics, you need to put something forward that can be grappled with.

you do not need to grasp em.

But that is NOT what was said. What was said is that it is the Word of God, but not the ENTIRE word of God. In other words, there are other sources beside the Bible for the Word of God.

you are NOT him so i will wait for his reply.

Certainly. And you’ve done nothing to further to enhance this point. So far, your only contribution has been that you think that the Bible is not the word of God because you don’t like it’s politics. Fine… it’s been said. What further discussion is needed? What are you seeking here?

because i will post my points on another thread. i’m seeking people’s views since i’m still in a point of reconsidering my faith.

Believing in no organized religion is positively trendy at this point in time. It is the predominant belief of the secular world. So, clearly, you are at least as culpable of believing whatever you are told as you suggested we are.

it’s not a trend, if it was then the population of people who do not belong in any religion would be increasing. it is still outnumbered by the christians.

And the contradictions of which you are speaking are your own fabrications. Several of us have already told you that the ENTIRE Bible is the Word of God, but that the Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

there are a lot and they aren’t fabrications. as i’ve said i’ll post it elsewhere since it’s already past my bedtime.

While it’s true that Catholics can disagree with each other, or even worse, be ignorant or outright of defiant of their supposed faith, it still doesn’t create the problem you suggest it does because Catholicism (unlike every other religion) has a central source and authority. The information is there to be had by all.

In fact, we live a golden age of sorts when it comes to that. Anything you want to find out about Catholicism can be discovered with incredible ease – from the source. So, rather than create an issue of confusion where one doesn’t exist, why not deal with the actual teachings and go from there?

that is why i’m here. apparently, the views of the people here are different from the catholic background where i came from and when i moved in to another place. everywhere is different, but the religion is the same.

 

[stillwater]

First, stillwater, I’m a SHE.
Second, there is nothing to clear up. As has been abundantly pointed out, the Bible is indeed the Word of God–the written Word. Christ, of course, is the LIVING Word. (and I DID mention this in my post).

yes you’ve said it IS indeed the word of god

So what is your difficulty? I made no bones about saying that the Word of God (Scripture) was, while profitable, inerrant, and inspired, not the ONLY tool for Christians to use.

okay so it is NOT the ONLY tool, like the others said

Since the words God gave us are capable, as ALL language is capable, of being interpreted completely truely, incompletely truely, incompletely falsely, and completely falsely–and you are giving a rather good demonstration of incomplete false interpretation of what we’re telling YOU (though you may not be doing so with full knowledge or with malice)–what God gave us WITH His written Word was the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us, through COMPLETELY TRUE interpretation of that word, to help us to follow the LIVING WORD. He gave us–the Church–His Spirit to guide us into completely true interpretation of His word, through the TEACHING AUTHORITY of the MAGESTERIUM. And this is, of course, completely Scriptural, as Jesus told us that He would send the Spirit who would ‘guide us into all truth’; and since we know from PETER that PRIVATE interpretation of Scripture is wrong, then there has to be an “authoritative” interpretation; and since we know that not EVERYTHING that Jesus said or did is contained within the Bible, we know that this interpretation is not limited TO the Bible.

so are you saying, if i read the bible i still have to consult the other written words of god to support what it says?

so all of these interpretations here aren’t your own opinions too i suppose.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, I am saying that the Bible is the WRITTEN word of God, and that Jesus is the LIVING Word of God; that JESUS gave us the WRITTEN WORD as part of the tools we need to guide us, along with the Church He established; and that, in order for us to truly and authentically follow Him, He gave us, in that Church, WITH the written word, the authentic teaching authority of the Magesterium OF the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, to guide us into ALL Truth.

Otherwise, how could we KNOW that the Bible is True? I gather this is your prime ‘sticking point.’ You aren’t CERTAIN about ANYTHING in the Bible at all; well, all the ‘unbelievers’ out there aren’t certain either. So if the Bible was the ONLY tool that Christians needed, it would have ‘fallen short’–because as people point out, circular reasoning like “the Bible says” would be ignored by people like you who say, “says WHO what the Bible says”.

Thus, we have not only the Living Word, we have the Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, who guides us through the Church, established BY God, using the written word OF God, to interpret those words authentically and truly by use of an infallible teaching authority. And once those words ARE taught, it is up to EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL to follow that Living Word, that Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, and the inerrant and inspired written Scripture to guide us into how we should do the two most important things God told us to do:
We are to serve the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. . .
And to love our neighbor as ourselves.

That is what every single person, every single action, and every single word of Christianity IS ALL ABOUT.

God bless.

 

[jmcrae]

No, I am saying that the Bible is the WRITTEN word of God, and that Jesus is the LIVING Word of God; that JESUS gave us the WRITTEN WORD as part of the tools we need to guide us, along with the Church He established; and that, in order for us to truly and authentically follow Him, He gave us, in that Church, WITH the written word, the authentic teaching authority of the Magesterium OF the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, to guide us into ALL Truth.

Otherwise, how could we KNOW that the Bible is True? I gather this is your prime ‘sticking point.’ You aren’t CERTAIN about ANYTHING in the Bible at all; well, all the ‘unbelievers’ out there aren’t certain either. So if the Bible was the ONLY tool that Christians needed, it would have ‘fallen short’–because as people point out, circular reasoning like “the Bible says” would be ignored by people like you who say, “says WHO what the Bible says”.

Thus, we have not only the Living Word, we have the Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, who guides us through the Church, established BY God, using the written word OF God, to interpret those words authentically and truly by use of an infallible teaching authority. And once those words ARE taught, it is up to EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL to follow that Living Word, that Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, and the inerrant and inspired written Scripture to guide us into how we should do the two most important things God told us to do:
We are to serve the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. . .
And to love our neighbor as ourselves.

That is what every single person, every single action, and every single word of Christianity IS ALL ABOUT.

God bless.

AMEN!!

 

[stillwater]

No, I am saying that the Bible is the WRITTEN word of God, and that Jesus is the LIVING Word of God; that JESUS gave us the WRITTEN WORD as part of the tools we need to guide us, along with the Church He established; and that, in order for us to truly and authentically follow Him, He gave us, in that Church, WITH the written word, the authentic teaching authority of the Magesterium OF the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit, to guide us into ALL Truth.

Otherwise, how could we KNOW that the Bible is True? I gather this is your prime ‘sticking point.’ You aren’t CERTAIN about ANYTHING in the Bible at all; well, all the ‘unbelievers’ out there aren’t certain either. So if the Bible was the ONLY tool that Christians needed, it would have ‘fallen short’–because as people point out, circular reasoning like “the Bible says” would be ignored by people like you who say, “says WHO what the Bible says”.

Thus, we have not only the Living Word, we have the Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, who guides us through the Church, established BY God, using the written word OF God, to interpret those words authentically and truly by use of an infallible teaching authority. And once those words ARE taught, it is up to EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL to follow that Living Word, that Spirit of Knowledge and Understanding, and the inerrant and inspired written Scripture to guide us into how we should do the two most important things God told us to do:
We are to serve the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. . .
And to love our neighbor as ourselves.

That is what every single person, every single action, and every single word of Christianity IS ALL ABOUT.

God bless.

it’s almost unnoticeable to see the flaw of your reasoning if you put a circular argument. you even refuted your statement earlier.

 

[jmcrae]

it’s almost unnoticeable to see the flaw of your reasoning if you put a circular argument. you even refuted your statement earlier.

If I say that apples are red, does it mean that nothing else can be red? Or if something else is red, does that mean that therefore, apples cannot be red?

The Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. The Church proclaims and teaches the Word of God. It’s not one thing only - the Word of God comes to us in many different ways.

Just like the colour red.

 

[stillwater]

If I say that apples are red, does it mean that nothing else can be red? Or if something else is red, does that mean that therefore, apples cannot be red?

you are very right in this logic. goin back to the original argument. if you say the canon law is a tool of christianity as well as catechism, does it mean the bible should be ignored?

the original verse i posted

1 timothy 2:12

“I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men. She is to keep silent.”

and if you are going to read the preceeding verse:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.”

do you agree with the verses?
if you don’t agree, then why do you think it’s in the bible?
if you do agree, then why?

 

[jmcrae]

you are very right in this logic. goin back to the original argument. if you say the canon law is a tool of christianity as well as catechism, does it mean the bible should be ignored?

No. The Bible tells us where we came from. It tells us what Jesus and the Apostles did, and how they established our Church.

the original verse i posted

1 timothy 2:12

“I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men. She is to keep silent.”

and if you are going to read the preceeding verse:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.”

do you agree with the verses?

It is not the current discipline of the Church.

If you don’t agree, then why do you think it’s in the bible?

To show us what Paul (the person saying “I” in those verses is Paul; not God) thought was the best thing to do for the women in the early Greek congregations in the Church.

 

[stillwater]

No. The Bible tells us where we came from. It tells us what Jesus and the Apostles did, and how they established our Church.

so all the verses in the bible including jesus’ teachings should only be regarded as sumthin like history, where we came from and therefore be ignored. because the other tools can provide on how we should live and behave.

It is not the current discipline of the Church.

To show us what Paul (the person saying “I” in those verses is Paul; not God) thought was the best thing to do for the women in the early Greek congregations in the Church.

if it’s paul and not god who said it, goin back to the previous argument…

was paul inspired by the word of god when he wrote that?
if he is inspired, then god must be speaking through paul then.
if he is not inspired then it is not true that the bible is 100% word of god.
and if it is not 100% true, we should cherrypick the verses we do like and ignore the verses that we don’t agree on.

end of argument

 

[jmcrae]

so all the verses in the bible including jesus’ teachings should only be regarded as sumthin like history, where we came from and therefore be ignored. because the other tools can provide on how we should live and behave.

We use all the tools together, and we seek the Church’s guidance whenever there is something that doesn’t make sense.

end of argument

Oh, good - does that mean I win?

 

[stillwater]

We use all the tools together, and we seek the Church’s guidance whenever there is something that doesn’t make sense.

i actually posted a question before which tantum ergo said no to:

so are you saying, if i read the bible i still have to consult the other written words of god to support what it says?

Oh, good - does that mean I win?

why aren’t you sure?

 

[jmcrae]

i actually posted a question before which tantum ergo said no to:

Well, he’s right about that - we consult the Church when we have questions; not other written documents (although they can certainly help, of course). The Church is the authentic interpreter of the Bible; not other documents, since the Church is a living teacher that can hear and understand your questions, and can help you find the guidance that you need.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Will you tell us what OTHER 'written words of God" you are referring to?

 

[stillwater]

Well, he’s right about that - we consult the Church when we have questions; not other written documents (although they can certainly help, of course). The Church is the authentic interpreter of the Bible; not other documents, since the Church is a living teacher that can hear and understand your questions, and can help you find the guidance that you need.

she clearly said no. no need to justify the answer.

Will you tell us what OTHER 'written words of God" you are referring to?

you actually replied to that question, so i guess you already understood.

 

[marci]

To get back to the question of “Why Can’t Women Become Priests?”, my question is why do women want to be priests? Setting aside the fact that church teaching simply doesn’t allow it, I think the issue for many “women priest champions” is they want to do it because the church says they can’t. I think that we all as catholics could do with a little humility. I am a married women with four young children and I am living a vocation that is profound in it’s importance to the christian body of the church. How many saints throughout history, known and unknown, have been lay women fulfilling their sacramental life in marraige for the greater glory of the kingdom of God? How many lay christians, living the single life, have devoted their lives to various charities, and christian causes trying to walk in the footsteps of Christ? How many religious sisters, be they great figures like Mother Theresa or the unknown contemplative in the abscure abby, have changed nations because of public activism or quiet devotion?
The point of all of this, “life”, is to know Him, to serve Him, and to love Him period. How can we do any of these things if we refuse to acknowledge the authority of his bride? Like it or not, “whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven”
Rather than fight for what you perceive as your “rights” why not pray for God’s guidance. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you what your true vocation in life is according to His plan for each of you.

 

[minkymurph]

OK. We can argue over the Bible all we want. To me, the Bible is the inspired word of God. Note I said inspired. God was inspiration. It does not mean God dictated the Bible. It was the human experiece of God related in a human way which God wanted. Why? because we are human and relate to God in a human way. No human can completely comprehend the divine in it’s entireity. It is the individual experience of God in scripture which is NOT WRONG but always incompete. We cannot totally comprehend infinity. It’s like asking someone to write a history essay. No one is WRONG, but they will see the same situation from different perspectives according to their EXPERIENCE. What I personally object to in all this talk about women being Priests, is that your nobody unless your a Priest or in this modern world, do what the guys do. I am a mother of two young children and I object to anyone telling me it is a lesser vocation than the priesthood. I don’t have to do what the guys do to value my own self worth. My own Parish Priest told me he does not envy his sisters job of bringing up two young children in this world. I am equal to a Priest in my vocation as a mother. Let a Priest, (and I’m not being disrespectful) raise children in this difficult world, guide them, protect them, nuture them, reveal God to them with all the emotional ties it involves and them ask him if this makes you some kind of lesser being in the eyes of God? NO WAY. My children and husband need me. I do not need to be a Priest to proove myself and if God called me to be a priest, so be it, but he has not and I am not a lesser being for it. If people want to interpret this as sexism, that’s their problem. God is not sexist, my worth is the same as anyone else.

 

[stillwater]

OK. We can argue over the Bible all we want. To me, the Bible is the inspired word of God. Note I said inspired. God was inspiration. It does not mean God dictated the Bible.

okay. so this is your version. i respect that. while the others say it IS the word of god.

It was the human experiece of God related in a human way which God wanted. Why? because we are human and relate to God in a human way. No human can completely comprehend the divine in it’s entireity. It is the individual experience of God in scripture which is NOT WRONG but always incompete. We cannot totally comprehend infinity.

blind faith reasoning

It’s like asking someone to write a history essay. No one is WRONG, but they will see the same situation from different perspectives according to their EXPERIENCE. What I personally object to in all this talk about women being Priests, is that your nobody unless your a Priest or in this modern world, do what the guys do. I am a mother of two young children and I object to anyone telling me it is a lesser vocation than the priesthood.

nobody mentions that being a mother is a lesser vocation than being a priest. if an individual wanted to be a priest, it is his choice. if an individual wanted to be a mother, it is her choice. if not for choice, we won’t see women working today, being able to vote, and treated equally as men. if some women wanted to be a priest, it’s their choice. as i can see, the only thing that stops the church from doin so is tradition. someone did mention that the pope has no choice. the problem of infallibility. that’s the reason why these additional catholic ‘tools’ were written and created: to patch the holes of the bible, which is also infallible. society is changing and the concept of morality goes along with it. things that are considered barbaric today were accepted in the past and vice versa.

I don’t have to do what the guys do to value my own self worth. My own Parish Priest told me he does not envy his sisters job of bringing up two young children in this world. I am equal to a Priest in my vocation as a mother. Let a Priest, (and I’m not being disrespectful) raise children in this difficult world, guide them, protect them, nuture them, reveal God to them with all the emotional ties it involves and them ask him if this makes you some kind of lesser being in the eyes of God? NO WAY. My children and husband need me. I do not need to be a Priest to proove myself and if God called me to be a priest, so be it, but he has not and I am not a lesser being for it.

again that’s your choice. other women want to serve in the name of god, but like you’ve said, it doesn’t make your worth lesser than of a priest and i agree with that.

If people want to interpret this as sexism, that’s their problem. God is not sexist, my worth is the same as anyone else.

no one said god is sexist, but i said the bible promotes sexism. but if you say bible = god, then god is sexist. of course, that is not the case.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just what is “sexism”? Seriously.

To me, ‘sexism’ is a cultural phenomenon that attempts to redefine ‘male’ and ‘female’ by focusing on ‘roles’ and then attempting to argue that UNLESS ‘male’ and ‘female’ do exactly the same things; unless each individual person basically has the chance to be anything from bum to Pope, it’s ‘sexism.’

Have, historically, men had certain ‘unfair’ advantages in certain areas? Why, yes. At the same time, they had distinct DISADVANTAGES as well; however, few mention this.

Those men of the 50s who ‘had’ to be breadwinners while the little woman ‘had’ to stay home? Well, setting aside that this was an affluent, white, urbanized Western concept which lasted, start to finish, about ONE GENERATION in history. . .

Those men with all the OPPORTUNITY (advantage) had the DISADVANTAGES of not being so available to their children, of having high rates of heart disease, stroke, and other diseases from stress, etc.

Those women who were ‘kept from reaching their full potential while being forced into mindless domesticity’ (disadvantage) had the ADVANTAGES of more leisure time than ever before, more programs and available knowledge and professional ‘help’ than ever before, more literacy than ever before, and lived longer and healthier lives than any women ever before.

Now, of course, men and women have all the ‘advantages’ of being able to work outside the home at low paying jobs and actually having less leisure time and more expenses (for child care) than ever before. Both men and women can suffer the ill effects of stress and develop high rates of heart disease and stroke. Men and women can now be equally promiscuous. They have the economic ability to support themselves and therefore can freely divorce. Instead of a child having parents whose main job was to help raise him or her, a child can now have parents whose main job is to ‘HAVE IT ALL’, who are frankly bored and disgusted with ‘child care’, as shown by the abysmally low salaries paid to those who actually CARE for the children; who can throw money and offer material goods to these children while making sure that they as parents do not stagnate by indulging themselves . . .

And, of course, they can demand to have things, people, jobs, etc. that they think they deserve, for the power they envision, the ‘glamor’, the prestige they think they’ll get for being ‘the first’.

No, I’m not saying that all people today are like this. . .but many are, and many MORE are somewhat like this, in one or all areas.
All because somebody thinks someone else is ‘sexist’. No woman is deprived by “not” being a priest anymore than any MAN is deprived by ‘not’ being a priest.

In order to have a valid Eucharist in the Catholic church, one must have grape wine and unleavened wheat bread with no additions like sweeteners or other grains, etc. Yet, nobody is screaming that they want to have pizza and beer, or pretzels and Koolaid. If we have no trouble accepting valid matter for the Eucharist, why do some have trouble accepting valid matter for a priest? It isn’t as if Jesus didn’t have ‘options’ for his last supper. He COULD have used ANY matter at all. But He chose what He chose. And for the disciples, the forerunners of the clergy, He COULD have chosen men AND women; He could have chosen women ALONE. . .but He chose men alone. To act as though Christ were LIMITED, or that He somehow, though God, just ‘accepted’ or went along with men because of “society” is hogwash.

 

[stillwater]

Have, historically, men had certain ‘unfair’ advantages in certain areas? Why, yes. At the same time, they had distinct DISADVANTAGES as well; however, few mention this.

Those men of the 50s who ‘had’ to be breadwinners while the little woman ‘had’ to stay home? Well, setting aside that this was an affluent, white, urbanized Western concept which lasted, start to finish, about ONE GENERATION in history. . .

right. like what i’ve said society changes. there are men today who are left home to do the roles of their wives, while the wife goes to work.

In order to have a valid Eucharist in the Catholic church, one must have grape wine and unleavened wheat bread with no additions like sweeteners or other grains, etc. Yet, nobody is screaming that they want to have pizza and beer, or pretzels and Koolaid.

cuz you are not in the church to have a party. there’s no difference in having a woman priest compared to having a man priest except the gender (the obvious).

To act as though Christ were LIMITED

thus, religion is not advancing. it’s still neanderthal. talk bout birth control, abortion, divorce, etc.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m sorry, but you did not address a single thing that I said, and on top of that, you offered gratuitous insults to my Catholic faith and those who practice it. If you simply CAN’T understand, that is one thing. If you have to stoop to insults, then you aren’t debating or arguing, you’re stalling because you can’t really answer. You’ve had your answers over and over; you just won’t accept them. That is too bad. Have a pleasant evening.