Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[chevalier]

Secondly, think about the laws of supply and demand. Most guys are under the impression they have to “act first” and “get out there” so they do. As a result there is a glut of assertive guys. If the male population was re-cultured to chill out and play a more conservative hand, things would change quite quickly. The only thing that wouldn’t change is nature’s biological clock…tick tock tick tock

The clock exists for men too, it’s only less readily apparent. For example I may still be presentable at 32, but I’m nowhere near the model-grade kind of look I enjoyed at 21-25, not that it made me anything else than single (except maybe it mattered to some extent to my ex-girlfriends and could-have-beens — I’d have to ask them, and I’d rather not). Sporty people, soldiers etc. can still be in their prime even at 40 or so, but the average guy is probably already suffering some attrition around this age, too. Obviously nothing close in significance to menopause but anyway. At least I’m not bald yet, but I’m nowhere near as slim or agile as I used to be, the teeth are no longer as white, facial features not as sharp etc. etc. in short: it sure ain’t gettin’ better.

Re: having to act first, yes, it’s cruel when you think about having to fit in short time windows. You can be categorized as friends-only material if you don’t act quickly enough, or a bandit could fly in, lockon your target and get the kill. In some cases that’ll be your own wingman.

Anyway, I recall experiencing a great deal of stress as a result of the pressure to act in time or especially the possibility of failing to. Nowadays I don’t really care near as much as I used to, but if you put me in a situation in which I could lose (in truth: without actually having her yet, to begin with) a woman I believed to be potentially the best fit… things could start exploding around me.

 

[Estevao]

WOW! 24 pages and over 350 posts…Estevo let me put this issue to rest seriously and allow me to share my situation.

I am a scientist so I like to observe and learn. For starters, a lot of the catcall videos I’ve seen referenced in this thread are shady at best. There was one woman who was paid to act drunk and actors were paid to try to abduct her. The video that came out before that with the woman in jeans was heavily edited so I’m sorry but that makes it VERY suspect. My wife works in the city, is attractive, doesn’t dress differently than that woman, and she has never been catcalled. My wife works on the upper east side. Take a look at that video closely. Many of the guys making comments seem to be the “downtrodden” of NYC. NYC has a very high rate of mental illness among its homeless and less fortunate because mental health is not taken as serious as it should. Many of the guys making comments do not look very well dressed and at that time of day should be in work if they had jobs. I’m sorry but that woman knew where to go to get the reaction she wanted. She exploited the situation many people are in because our society has “disposed” of them and now she’s cashing in at their expense again for political points.

Yeah I pretty much ignore any “facts” that feminists bring forward. They’ve been lying since the 1970s, from the trash “academics” put out like “the feminine mystique”, to false “unequal pay” stats to that Columbia false-rape claim case that came to light finally this week.

Now Estevo to propose a solution to the problem you posed…By the time I was 22, I was absolutely fed up with trying to guess what women wanted and the absurd logic that a man should make the first move yet has to do so blindfolded in the presence of an ax to his heart. I’m not a mind reader and didn’t have time for games. When I met my wife I saw lots of qualities I found attractive. Despite being interested in her I made a conscience effort to do nothing. It wasn’t really an effort per se. I just went about my life on my terms and if she wanted in ok. I did not chase her and did not pursue her. If she called me on the phone I promptly returned her call as I would have done for anyone else simply out of respect and nothing more. I didn’t play phone games with her. That went on for quite awhile until SHE made the first move.

Once she learned the feelings were mutual boy did I get an earful about how I was “confusing her.” Apparently she took meeting her halfway for dinner once in awhile and returning her phone calls as something out of the ordinary. It really wasn’t for me and probably isn’t for most. That is when I told her “welcome to a guy’s world…hope you realize the grass isn’t as green on this side of the tree as you thought.” We have a good relationship now and she learned to appreciate what I do for her. I think a lot more guys need to do as I did and say “I’m done…their turn” and go solve a real world problem for sport. Chasing after people who have no understanding or appreciation for the challenges you face are not going to make good mates. Until you walk a mile in someone else’s shoes you have no idea what challenges and garbage they have to put up with. My wife learned that early on and we’ve had a very blessed and respectful marriage. Can’t say the same for the guys who thought riding in on a white horse was the way to go…

This is great advice thanks. I have no interest in catering to the fantasies of some woman whose views on relationships come from pop songs, movies, social media, clubbing and her numerous cliques that feed her overblown ego. But it’s pretty unlikely that I’ll find a woman out there who doesn’t buy into the feminist paradigm, 99% of them have accepted at least some of the brainwashing from public schooling and college. It’s hard to resist the ideological onslaught. But this is great advice for finding some woman who is serious.

 

[chevalier]

Gotta point out an inconsistency: Man making the first move and taking the risk is the old ‘patriarchal’ way, not a consequence of the feminist paradigm (which would rather allow women to pursue just like it allows them to do whatever they want anyway).

 

[Estevao]

Gotta point out an inconsistency: Man making the first move and taking the risk is the old ‘patriarchal’ way, not a consequence of the feminist paradigm (which would rather allow women to pursue just like it allows them to do whatever they want anyway).

Yes, but the feminist paradigm is here to stay, only 1 in 100 women is going to reject it wholesale. 99 in 100 women will be brainwashed by it to vary degrees of acceptance. Being aloof makes you mysterious and attractive, being chivalrous is a dead start nowadays, women don’t find that attractive anymore.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Yes, but the feminist paradigm is here to stay, only 1 in 100 women is going to reject it wholesale. 99 in 100 women will be brainwashed by it to vary degrees of acceptance. Being aloof makes you mysterious and attractive, being chivalrous is a dead start nowadays, women don’t find that attractive anymore.

I’ve noticed a particular habit that will undermine how you related to women and that is we don’t have a hive mind. At least you allow that there might be an exception albeit a small percentage.

Also, women often make it clear that they are not interested but that isn’t what the interested party wants to hear so the cognitive dissonance distorts the message so it appears unclear.

 

[Estevao]

I’ve noticed a particular habit that will undermine how you related to women and that is we don’t have a hive mind. At least you allow that there might be an exception albeit a small percentage.

Also, women often make it clear that they are not interested but that isn’t what the interested party wants to hear so the cognitive dissonance distorts the message so it appears unclear.

It’s hard for me to see women as people tbh. I don’t have any close relationships with women. Growing up I got my ideas about relationships from idealized movies, so when I see it’s not at all like that I reacted rather cynically.

 

[technatrix]

Also, women often make it clear that they are not interested but that isn’t what the interested party wants to hear so the cognitive dissonance distorts the message so it appears unclear.

Oh, man, so much this. I tend to know whether I want to date someone fairly quickly and I try to be upfront about as soon as possible so as not to set anyone up for disappointment or hurt feelings. My experience is that often, no matter how firm and diplomatic I am about it, either the guy gets offended (because why wouldn’t you want to date him? He’s such a nice guy after all!) or they insist on interpreting it as a non-committal response and try again later.

Honestly, I’d rather be the one to ask a guy that I like out for exactly this reason, plus it’s a good litmus test. A guy that is taken aback by me being the proactive, forward type probably would not be a good personality match for me anyway. And, the momentary awkwardness of being turned down is way less than the awkwardness of having to repeatedly and gently repel a guy who is convinced that there’s some sort of magic cheat code that will make you like him romantically if he can only figure out the combination. I’m sure this happens to guys as well, it just seems to be a really common occurrence for many of the women I know.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Gotta point out an inconsistency: Man making the first move and taking the risk is the old ‘patriarchal’ way, not a consequence of the feminist paradigm (which would rather allow women to pursue just like it allows them to do whatever they want anyway).

Yep. Not that I think that there’s anything wrong with a woman pursuing. But if you want a traditional spouse and/or marriage, then you’ll have to behave in a traditional way. That’s really the only way to attract the person you’re looking for.

I wanted a strong man who could be a leader. While dating, my husband is the one who set the pace and moved us forward. He kind of guided me into marriage and made us a family. That’s a powerful feeling and I love him all the more for it.

I’m in charge in every other area of my life. It’s nice to come home and just fall into comfortable man and wife roles and it comes very naturally to us. I just wouldn’t have the same trust and respect for him if I had been pursuing or calling the shots.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m well aware of that as that is a given. Most guys however do not want to attract “all women.” They want just 1 that will settle down with them and have a family. I’m sure there is something that every man / woman finds absolutely marvelous about the opposite sex if they are straight. Clearly, it worked in my case. I went about my business and my wife wanted to tag along. If people can’t see another for their unseen value then that’s probably not someone you want to be with in the first place.

You used the term “irresistible.” I was pointing out that nobody is literally irresistible.

It’s understandable that women prefer men to do all the “heavy lifting” when it comes to a relationship.

**Not really. It’s just that there are traditional courtship roles, and there’s plenty of work for both sexes to do in traditional courtship, if you look closely.

I have to confess here that I was fairly assertive with my future husband. In fact, he tells me that I proposed to him. I don’t remember it quite that way. Apparently, I asked if we should get married, and he understood that as a proposal rather than as an invitation to propose, but I think I should speak up here for my more traditional, less assertive sisters. They may be being shy or traditional or just fearful of looking loose rather than lazy, which is your interpretation of women not chasing after men. There are HUGE cultural roadblocks that keep women from being assertive in going after men. I had two huge crushes (one in high school and one in college) where I was just suffering for years in silence. It wasn’t laziness, it was just not even realizing that it was an option to do anything else.
**

It is human nature to want to minimize the effort being put in and maximize the pleasure being drawn out. People are like electricity. We want the path with the least resistance. Unfortunately when we choose that path we surrender the right to complain where it leads us but some people fail to realize that hence divorce.

Most men don’t get anywhere because they spend too much time obsessing about women it doesn’t leave them much time to develop themselves in any other way. Nature has a way to motivate the “un-motivated” female. It is called a “biological clock.” One of my female friends used to be all over every guy she met at the bar because she was 28 and unmarried. All I ever heard was “when am I going to have a baby…I need a man…I want to get married…etc etc etc” and the list goes on.

Secondly, think about the laws of supply and demand. Most guys are under the impression they have to “act first” and “get out there” so they do.

**Many, but not all. There are lots of CAF men who seemingly expect Amazon or the Angel Gabriel to deliver their bride to their front door.
**
As a result there is a glut of assertive guys. If the male population was re-cultured to chill out and play a more conservative hand, things would change quite quickly. The only thing that wouldn’t change is nature’s biological clock…tick tock tick tock

The male population is playing a very conservative hand–the average male age at first marriage is now about 29 in the US and even higher in other developed countries.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It’s hard for me to see women as people tbh. I don’t have any close relationships with women. Growing up I got my ideas about relationships from idealized movies, so when I see it’s not at all like that I reacted rather cynically.

Is that something you’re ok with, or something you want to change?

Because if it’s something you want to change, then start actually talking and listening to women. I think you’d quickly be surprised at how much no two are alike. But when women talk about women, you tell them they’re wrong. Well, if you don’t see them as people, I’m not sure you’re qualified to say anything about them. Trust me, women know women better than (most) men do.

I’m going to tell you something that you need to hear: You have been posting awful, ugly things here about women for years. And then you take these links to sites like Dalrock where you repost them along with more awful, ugly things about women. And then all of those never married men who want absolutely nothing to do with women in the first place show up and tell you all of these crazy things about women (my favorite is that we lack moral agency) and how they can’t wait for ISIS to take over the West so that women will be forced into their place.

So, if you want your life to stay exactly the same, I would keep on immersing yourself in that world all day, every day. But women aren’t there. Not even the demure, traditional, silent women that you crave are there. Just a bunch of lonely, bitter, angry men who are all too happy to tell someone like you who is in his 20’s and has every possibility open to him that he should resign himself to a lifetime of loneliness, bitterness, and anger too. Is that really what you want?

If you want your life and your situation to change, romantically or otherwise, then it is YOU that has to change. Not the world, not women, not even those pesky “feminists”. That’s just a fact. There is no amount of complaining online that will result in a pretty, interested woman knocking on your door for marriage. I’ve read your posts here and your blog. You’re clearly a very intelligent man with a passion for reading just about anything he can get his hands on. Why not get off the computer, put away the reflexive anger, and let the world see it?

 

[chevalier]

Also, women often make it clear that they are not interested but that isn’t what the interested party wants to hear so the cognitive dissonance distorts the message so it appears unclear.

Okay, not to be argumentative, but those messages really aren’t often all that clear, and they are expressly put in tentative terms to limit the awkwardness, confrontation and whatnot.

You can’t actually tell someone what you want him to do by simply conveying information, for example. Men are problem solvers, AND they also take things literally:

W: Sorry, I can’t.
M: [Thinks she can’t. Makes another proposal right away or after some time.]

W: I don’t want to date you.
M: ‘Don’t’ doesn’t mean ‘won’t ever’.] How about hanging out as friends?/What can I do to change your mind/Whatever

W: I don’t think we’re a good fit
M: [Registers the feedback. Adjusts strategy. Chooses tactic. Tries to convince her otherwise.]

Any other excuse or euphemism will work out the same way. This is not to say that nothing short of a restraining order will work (not that restraining orders always work), but you need to make it clear that you’re communicating a lasting, permanent frame of mind and not just responding to a current status query.

Is it bad that guys don’t get it? Well, so why do women put so much emphasis on relentless pursuit, perserverance and such like, including some who admit they wanted their current husband to go away but are glad he didn’t? Can’t have a cake and eat it.

Even whether someone feels harassed or not depends on how attractive the ‘harasser’ is, sometimes (and it’s only harassing if you’re ugly… yup, a guy’s fate).

I tend to know whether I want to date someone fairly quickly and I try to be upfront about as soon as possible so as not to set anyone up for disappointment or hurt feelings. My experience is that often, no matter how firm and diplomatic I am about it, either the guy gets offended (because why wouldn’t you want to date him? He’s such a nice guy after all!)

Funny thing, because in your example you’re displaying some of the qualities of a proper male brain, whereas those guys you talk to act like the typical girl (unable to understand how a member of the opposite sex could possibly not be attracted/willing to give it a chance).

or they insist on interpreting it as a non-committal response and try again later.

See above.

who is convinced that there’s some sort of magic cheat code that will make you like him romantically if he can only figure out the combination.

Wow, you nailed it.

Honestly, I’d rather be the one to ask a guy that I like out for exactly this reason, plus it’s a good litmus test. A guy that is taken aback by me being the proactive, forward type probably would not be a good personality match for me anyway. And, the momentary awkwardness of being turned down is way less than the awkwardness…

Hah, kudos for the logical approach. Comes with the nickname, I guess. What were your maths grades anyway? (If this is not a personal question. )

 

[chevalier]

Yep. Not that I think that there’s anything wrong with a woman pursuing. But if you want a traditional spouse and/or marriage, then you’ll have to behave in a traditional way. That’s really the only way to attract the person you’re looking for.

Traditional women had their ways, hehe. And they could be surprisingly headstrong.

I’m in charge in every other area of my life.

Isn’t that your and his life?

I just wouldn’t have the same trust and respect for him if I had been pursuing or calling the shots.

That sounds quite traditional. Well, every woman is different. Some will disrespect the guy and/or harbour resentment over his not having been more proactive (especially if the woman thinks that, well, since he seems perfectly interested now, he probably also had been before — so why didn’t he…? etc.). Others will disrespect themselves (losing self-esteem) for having pursued him. And I guess there are some women who just can’t not be the initiator (so called male brain?).

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Traditional women had their ways, hehe. And they could be surprisingly headstrong.

True, but it’s a little different than making the first move.

Isn’t that your and his life?
Yes, we have a life together. But we also have spheres that are distinctly our own. Work, for instance. I’m a super Type-A hyper-motivated, hyper-competent person that gets a lot thrown on her plate and gets promoted quickly. Before going to law school, I moved up very quickly in a real estate company and became the pet 23 year old in the corporate office-but I knew what I was doing and no one could sell like I did. When it comes to my family of origin, I’m the youngest-and the one that everyone turns to and relies on. I enjoy working hard and succeeding, and I enjoy being there for my family and friends. But when the day is over and I get to come home, it is really nice to be able to turn that all off and let nature take it’s course. And I know that he really likes coming home and being able to just make decisions and take the lead without having to jump through any hoops. It makes us both feel good and our marriage run smoothly.

That sounds quite traditional. Well, every woman is different. Some will disrespect the guy and/or harbour resentment over his not having been more proactive (especially if the woman thinks that, well, since he seems perfectly interested now, he probably also had been before — so why didn’t he…? etc.). Others will disrespect themselves (losing self-esteem) for having pursued him. And I guess there are some women who just can’t not be the initiator (so called male brain?).

Yep, everyone is different. I have friends in much more progressive marriages than mine and they are quite happy. But that’s what they wanted. We are all free to pursue what we want, but being smart about it means acting in a way that will attract the type of person that you want to be with.

Funny you should mention the “male brain”. I’ve been accused of that more than once in my life…and I’ll grant that it’s probably true. But one of the things that I really liked about hubby was that he made it very easy for me to trust him and let him take control. And on the rare occasion that we had an issue, he was strong enough to push back instead of letting me walk all over him. I used to get so bored with guys who would just let me have my way because they liked me. I really liked having someone who would listen, talk, and even argue with me, and who was willing to compromise, but who would not be walked on. Like I said, I wanted an even stronger personality than my own.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, but the feminist paradigm is here to stay, only 1 in 100 women is going to reject it wholesale. 99 in 100 women will be brainwashed by it to vary degrees of acceptance. Being aloof makes you mysterious and attractive,

…or invisible.

being chivalrous is a dead start nowadays, women don’t find that attractive anymore.

Well, it can be viewed as weird or creepy or just plain pushy or a violation of personal space to offer to do things for people that they can perfectly well do themselves.

Also, if “chivalrous” means being show-offy about minor displays of politeness (example: making a big production out of holding a door for somebody), it’s understandable why that doesn’t go over well.

It’s also bad to pile unreciprocated favors on a particular chosen person, because it can look like you are trying to put them in your debt to extort something out of them against their will at a later date. Good manners is to do one or two nice things for somebody else, wait for them to reciprocate, and then continue. If it’s unreciprocated, that could be a signal from them to PLEASE stop. (I’m not talking about charity here, but favors between friends.)

There are a lot of cases where “chivalry” could look a lot like plain, old-fashioned garden-variety rudeness and boorishness.

 

[Xantippe]

Is that something you’re ok with, or something you want to change?

Because if it’s something you want to change, then start actually talking and listening to women. I think you’d quickly be surprised at how much no two are alike. But when women talk about women, you tell them they’re wrong. Well, if you don’t see them as people, I’m not sure you’re qualified to say anything about them. Trust me, women know women better than (most) men do.

I’m going to tell you something that you need to hear: You have been posting awful, ugly things here about women for years. And then you take these links to sites like Dalrock where you repost them along with more awful, ugly things about women. And then all of those never married men who want absolutely nothing to do with women in the first place show up and tell you all of these crazy things about women (my favorite is that we lack moral agency) and how they can’t wait for ISIS to take over the West so that women will be forced into their place.

So, if you want your life to stay exactly the same, I would keep on immersing yourself in that world all day, every day. But women aren’t there. Not even the demure, traditional, silent women that you crave are there.

**Especially not them–the demure and traditional would find even the vocabulary among Dalrock posters crude and disgusting, to say nothing of the ideas themselves. Those guys obviously feel that women are basically livestock. Honestly, I’ve known ranchers to be WAY more empathetic about their cows than the Dalrock guys are about women.

Furthermore, as a rule, good people don’t spend vast amounts of time in morose delectation of other people’s sins, real or imagined, and particularly not in using the crudest possible language to describe those sins.

Try to imagine reading any given Dalrock thread to your future in-laws–it’s not a pretty picture, is it?
**

Just a bunch of lonely, bitter, angry men who are all too happy to tell someone like you who is in his 20’s and has every possibility open to him that he should resign himself to a lifetime of loneliness, bitterness, and anger too. Is that really what you want?

If you want your life and your situation to change, romantically or otherwise, then it is YOU that has to change. Not the world, not women, not even those pesky “feminists”. That’s just a fact. There is no amount of complaining online that will result in a pretty, interested woman knocking on your door for marriage. I’ve read your posts here and your blog. You’re clearly a very intelligent man with a passion for reading just about anything he can get his hands on. Why not get off the computer, put away the reflexive anger, and let the world see it?

Yes.

And heck, you can even learn a lot about women online by talking to women.

 

[Xantippe]

Regarding women not initiating…

That is so deeply engrained in our culture that girls and women need special “permission” to go against the rule that they aren’t allowed to explicitly initiate. For instance, there are such things as Sadie Hawkins dances:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadie_Hawkins_dance

Apparently, the first Sadie Hawkins dance was held in 1938 and the concept was very popular by the early 1950s.

The reason girls and women in our culture need explicit permission to ask is that girls and women who initiate are to this day viewed as being unfeminine, promiscuous, and/or desperate. It’s not just “laziness”–there are some huge cultural taboos and stigmas involved.

 

[technatrix]

Funny thing, because in your example you’re displaying some of the qualities of a proper male brain, whereas those guys you talk to act like the typical girl (unable to understand how a member of the opposite sex could possibly not be attracted/willing to give it a chance).

I think of this as being more of a personality issue rather than a gender issue. Some people lack appropriate insight into their own behavior, e.g. some of those “nice” guys and girls are objectively not as nice as they think they are, and it’s my totally unscientific anecdotal experience that a lot of people of both genders just lack the emotional maturity to hear “I don’t think we’re right for each other” and not interpret it as “I think there’s something wrong with you and you’re not good enough for me”. Maybe that’s stratified by gender one way or another, I have no idea if that data exists somewhere, but it certainly seems to be just a general human problem from where I’m sitting.

Any other excuse or euphemism will work out the same way. This is not to say that nothing short of a restraining order will work (not that restraining orders always work), but you need to make it clear that you’re communicating a lasting, permanent frame of mind and not just responding to a current status query.

This doesn’t work for me a lot of the time, but that could also be the demographic of guy that I usually spend a lot of time around. Computer people tend not to have the best social skills. On the whole, though, it’s my experience that a firm “No. I’m not going to change my mind. Please stop asking” ends with butthurt and drama. I’ve seen the same thing happen in reverse, though, with the girl being the butthurt pursuer and the guy having to put his foot down about it. People, amirite? Makes it harder for those of us who try to just say what we mean up front and avoid the confusion.

Hah, kudos for the logical approach. Comes with the nickname, I guess. What were your maths grades anyway? (If this is not a personal question. )

lol Well, I’m no savant, but I managed a respectable bunch of A’s in maths, mostly because I’m too stubborn to let mere calculus get in the way of doing cool things with computers.

 

[Kat127]

It’s hard for me to see women as people tbh. I don’t have any close relationships with women. Growing up I got my ideas about relationships from idealized movies, so when I see it’s not at all like that I reacted rather cynically.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who was bellyaching about not being able to ever find a guy worth dating. I lost my patience and told her her problem was she didn’t like men. She protested. I told her she was attracted to men but didn’t like men when they behaved like men in situations outside of the bedroom.

There are certain things that are masculine. It doesn’t manifest the same way in every guy because you are all unique individuals. But there is humor, ways of approaching problems, mannerism etc that are inherently male. When you truly appreciate men, you love these things even when you don’t fully understand or agree with them. You don’t attack men for being men.

The same is true for men. If you want a successful relationship with women you need to learn to love our femininity. I am not just talking about our less dominate natures or our desire to nurture but our thought process, our empathy, our emotions and humor.

You don’t have to understand it all just enjoy it. I marvel at how differently my husband approaches things than I do.

But it is almost impossible to have meaningful relationship with the opposite sex if you can’t appericate the difference in the sexes outside of the bedroom.

Don’t get me wrong we all get frustrated and want to tear our hair out at some of problems between men and women but you need a underlying fondness for each other to help you through those moments.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say because I am not sure I am communicating it well.

 

[flyonthewall86]

I’ve noticed a particular habit that will undermine how you related to women and that is we don’t have a hive mind. At least you allow that there might be an exception albeit a small percentage.

Also, women often make it clear that they are not interested but that isn’t what the interested party wants to hear so the cognitive dissonance distorts the message so it appears unclear.

You mean how a girl once told me, “let’s keep it as friends for now but that doesn’t mean that it can’t change in the future?” Sounded like she wanted to keep me as an insurance policy. Too bad this insurance policy cancelled itself quite quickly for such a lame reply. If I was the desperate type I would have wasted time trying to make that “future” come to light.

What one person may interpret as “obvious” may only be obvious to them. It’s called introspect. You know your own feelings but others do not unless you definitively and clearly voice them. If women are going to prefer being asked out first they can at least show a little gratitude when a guy does ask by giving him a definitive not subject to interpretation answer. All you have to say is something to the effect “thank you for being honest with me about your feelings, but I do not have a romantic interest in you.” Plain and simple.

The male population is playing a very conservative hand–the average male age at first marriage is now about 29 in the US and even higher in other developed countries.

That’s because of economics, not whose asking who out.

Not really. It’s just that there are traditional courtship roles, and there’s plenty of work for both sexes to do in traditional courtship, if you look closely.

I have to confess here that I was fairly assertive with my future husband. In fact, he tells me that I proposed to him. I don’t remember it quite that way. Apparently, I asked if we should get married, and he understood that as a proposal rather than as an invitation to propose, but I think I should speak up here for my more traditional, less assertive sisters. They may be being shy or traditional or just fearful of looking loose rather than lazy, which is your interpretation of women not chasing after men. There are HUGE cultural roadblocks that keep women from being assertive in going after men. I had two huge crushes (one in high school and one in college) where I was just suffering for years in silence. It wasn’t laziness, it was just not even realizing that it was an option to do anything else.

I guess saying yes or no as a guy spills his guts is hard…who knew. What are these “HUGE” cultural roadblocks? As I said before, a woman walking into a bar gets far more phone numbers than a guy who does the same. For women, winning a man would be like shopping in a catalog. You pick, choose, and its most likely in stock. For men, winning a woman is like shopping in a store that has a going out of business sale. Almost everything is “out of stock” and not being replenished.

These days with promiscuity being the norm and even celebrated in the media I highly doubt most guys would run away from a woman thinking shes promiscuous for asking them out or moving in for the first kiss.

 

[Xantippe]

What one person may interpret as “obvious” may only be obvious to them. It’s called introspect. You know your own feelings but others do not unless you definitively and clearly voice them. If women are going to prefer being asked out first they can at least show a little gratitude when a guy does ask by giving him a definitive not subject to interpretation answer. All you have to say is something to the effect “thank you for being honest with me about your feelings, but I do not have a romantic interest in you.” Plain and simple.

**But was he asking, “Do you have romantic feelings for me?” It’s much more likely that that wasn’t the question he was asking.

We get answers to the questions we actually ask and frankly, “Do you have romantic feelings for me?” is a dumb question to ask a person you’ve never even had dinner with before. We ought to give them a fair chance to develop romantic feelings before putting them on the spot like that. Actual relationships and feelings take time to develop.

There is unavoidably often a lot of ambiguity in early courtship.**

**Also, bear in mind that women may actually be showing gratitude for being asked out by not giving a full, blow-by-blow account of how unattractive they find you (I hate your laugh, I hate the way you talk to waiters, I hate how you talk about your ex-girlfriends, I hate all your friends, I hate that huge mole on your neck), and how they wouldn’t go out for coconuts and bananas with you if they were literally trapped on a desert island with you for the rest of their lives.

Also, bear in mind that there are “guy” versions of the female lines you dislike: “I’m not ready for commitment” (with you), “I’m not into labels” (because I like to see more than one woman at once), “I can see us getting married in 3-5 years” (except if something better comes along), etc.
**

That’s because of economics, not whose asking who out.

I guess saying yes or no as a guy spills his guts is hard…who knew. What are these “HUGE” cultural roadblocks?

**As I said, a woman considering pursuing a man may be afraid that she will be seen as unfeminine, a failure as a woman, untraditional, sexually promiscuous, or desperate.

Those are all a pretty big deal. **

As I said before, a woman walking into a bar gets far more phone numbers than a guy who does the same.

**And that’s where all the nice Catholic girls and guys spend all their time, right?

I think I’ve been inside a bar maybe three or four times total, always to have lunch or hang out with friends or have dinner with my husband. I have never, never, ever gone to a bar to meet men, and furthermore, I have never allowed a strange man that made overtures to me in public to become more closely acquainted with me. It just isn’t safe and there are much better places to meet people (I met my future husband at a Catholic reading group for young adults). **

For women, winning a man would be like shopping in a catalog. You pick, choose, and its most likely in stock. For men, winning a woman is like shopping in a store that has a going out of business sale. Almost everything is “out of stock” and not being replenished.

**???

You think that a woman can just ask the man of her dreams out and it’s a done deal?

That’s ridiculous. If that were true, why aren’t women doing it? The simple answer is, because it doesn’t actually work. **

These days with promiscuity being the norm and even celebrated in the media I highly doubt most guys would run away from a woman thinking shes promiscuous for asking them out or moving in for the first kiss.