Why can't women simply say "I'm not interested." to men?

[chevalier]

I can’t imagine not offering to help a stranger in an emergency situation — or even some sort of inconvenience. I would obviously understand if someone declined such help, but I definitely wouldn’t appreciate any rude remarks and gratuitous allusions. I actually might sue for an apology and a small payment for a charitable cause, just to land the point across.

Example: A woman gets on the train with a heavy suitcase that needs up on the rack. A fellow patron orders a beer but is out of cash or a euro short as it turns out. Or a business type needs a coffee down for a coffee left his or her wallet up at the office. Or someone doesn’t know the local language. Or I’m just holding the door and see a wheelchair soldiering on a couple of yards away, or some guy with both hands occupied. I’m going to offer my help, though always in a respectful way, without being look-at-me about it, and I’ll take a no, but the last thing any unwilling recipient should do is give one a mouthful over getting out of one’s way to help.

People are so self-absorbed these days that they could berate you in public for offering a helping hand and thus implying that they just might gasp! actaully need it, or — the absolutely unspeakable — be showing any sort of weakness. How dared you not slam the door in my face, you arrogant presuming sumbitch, get your bigoted hide back to 1950s where it belongs, I’m getting a restraining order and suing for $/€/₤1M, my liberal counsellor says people like you are the very reason this world’s such a despicable intolerant place to be in, yadda yadda.

 

[chevalier]

I suspect this is all very local and cultural.

Touching a strange woman or a woman that one barely knows is major rudeness.

Who says anything about touching? (Just because I’m European/not American?)

She isn’t “switching to rude mode,” she is clearly expressing what she wants. And what she wants is for her personal space to be respected.

I was obviously not talking about attempted assault, groping or any sort of physical advances. At that point, depending on intensity, it’s basically self-defence anyway.

But, suppose she’s on the train, with that heavy suitcase that needs up on the luggage rack. A man offers to help. She can take it or leave it, but meeting the offer of help with a rude remark to the effect of, ‘go away or I’m calling security,’ that’d be uncalled for and, well, rude.

Same way if you hold the door for a woman and she launches on a feminist diatribe about you presuming she’s weak etc. That too is rude.

NOTHING about putting paws on a female stranger and being surprised that she isn’t elated, I assure you.

I don’t think that one has to wait for threats to materialize. It’s OK (in fact, more than OK) to prioritize one’s personal safety, rather than being polite and nice to the point of endangering oneself.

Yelling obscenities at an assailant or person acting rowdy is one thing. Talking to people like they don’t deserve any respect just because, you know, they could always, hypothetically, turn into rapists or some other assailants, so why not insult them right away — that’s a that’s a different cup of tea.

And just because someone wants something doesn’t mean it’s okay to skip the ‘please’. It’s okay to ask a delivery boy to step back a little before opening the door, but it’s not okay to be rude about it. The correct form is: ‘would you mind stepping back a little, like a yard or two,’ not: ‘step back! now, or I’m not opening it/I’m calling the police.’

Same way, it’s okay to inspect a cop’s badge closely, but it’s not okay to talk like it’s probably a fake without having some serious piece of proof to back that claim up with. Is my point clearer now?

 

[Xantippe]

I can’t imagine not offering to help a stranger in an emergency situation — or even some sort of inconvenience. I would obviously understand if someone declined such help, but I definitely wouldn’t appreciate any rude remarks and gratuitous allusions. I actually might sue for an apology and a small payment for a charitable cause, just to land the point across.

Example: A woman gets on the train with a heavy suitcase that needs up on the rack. A fellow patron orders a beer but is out of cash or a euro short as it turns out. Or a business type needs a coffee down for a coffee left his or her wallet up at the office. Or someone doesn’t know the local language. Or I’m just holding the door and see a wheelchair soldiering on a couple of yards away, or some guy with both hands occupied. I’m going to offer my help, though always in a respectful way, without being look-at-me about it, and I’ll take a no, but the last thing any unwilling recipient should do is give one a mouthful over getting out of one’s way to help.

People are so self-absorbed these days that they could berate you in public for offering a helping hand and thus implying that they just might gasp! actaully need it, or — the absolutely unspeakable — be showing any sort of weakness. How dared you not slam the door in my face, you arrogant presuming sumbitch, get your bigoted hide back to 1950s where it belongs, I’m getting a restraining order and suing for $/€/₤1M, my liberal counsellor says people like you are the very reason this world’s such a despicable intolerant place to be in, yadda yadda.

I’ve never seen that particular form of rudeness.

But, on the other hand, since practically everybody here is helpful and polite to strangers, it doesn’t trigger alarm bells when somebody is helpful.

Anytime somebody does something atypical for a particular culture, one does have to raise the mental red flags. One bit of atypical behavior may indicate a lot of other atypical behavior.

 

[Xantippe]

Who says anything about touching? (Just because I’m European/not American?)

**I wasn’t clear what you meant. When you talked about women yelling hysterically “Step back!” that was the only scenario that made sense to me from personal experience, that there was unsolicited physical contact going on. So I took the liberty of translating “Step back!” (which I’ve never heard anybody say in real life) to “Get your hands off of me!”

Unsolicited physical contact from male strangers is, unfortunately, something that women in big cities have to learn to deal with, and yelling as loudly as possible and shaming them into stopping what they are doing is one of the options.

Here’s an extreme example from Japan of what women in large cities have to live with every day:

howibecametexan.com/2013/08/29/things-i-hate-about-japan-chikan-perverts/**

howibecametexan.com/2014/01/31/what-to-do-if-you-are-targeted-by-a-chikan-pervert-on-a-japanese-train/

I was obviously not talking about attempted assault, groping or any sort of physical advances. At that point, depending on intensity, it’s basically self-defence anyway.

But, suppose she’s on the train, with that heavy suitcase that needs up on the luggage rack. A man offers to help. She can take it or leave it, but meeting the offer of help with a rude remark to the effect of, ‘go away or I’m calling security,’ that’d be uncalled for and, well, rude.

Same way if you hold the door for a woman and she launches on a feminist diatribe about you presuming she’s weak etc. That too is rude.

NOTHING about putting paws on a female stranger and being surprised that she isn’t elated, I assure you.

Yelling obscenities at an assailant or person acting rowdy is one thing. Talking to people like they don’t deserve any respect just because, you know, they could always, hypothetically, turn into rapists or some other assailants, so why not insult them right away — that’s a that’s a different cup of tea.

And just because someone wants something doesn’t mean it’s okay to skip the ‘please’. It’s okay to ask a delivery boy to step back a little before opening the door, but it’s not okay to be rude about it. The correct form is: ‘would you mind stepping back a little, like a yard or two,’ not: ‘step back! now, or I’m not opening it/I’m calling the police.’

Same way, it’s okay to inspect a cop’s badge closely, but it’s not okay to talk like it’s probably a fake without having some serious piece of proof to back that claim up with. Is my point clearer now?

Eh, if you are encountering that much suspicion in daily life, maybe women don’t feel safe? And if they don’t feel safe, maybe it’s because they aren’t safe and have had lots of unpleasant experiences where one minute they’re being “helped” and the next minute their boundaries are being violated? Moreover, how do you know that the women that you are talking about are not victims of violent assault and your behavior may be reminding them of the events leading up to the assault?

How about just sticking to the normal level of helpfulness and contact with strangers in your particular culture and calling it a day. If your behavior is causing women and others so much anxiety, maybe it’s time to stop doing whatever it is that you are doing.

As I said in a previous post, in our area, almost everybody in our area of both sexes is painfully polite and helpful, but that is our local social norm.

If you are violating your local social norms, I’m not surprised that you are running into trouble.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to monopolize the thread, but “The Gift of Fear” has some very helpful thoughts.

Here are some “pre-incident indicators” that violence is about to occur (I’ve cribbed the list from Wikipedia–it’s all verbatim):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear

–**Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that he has something in common with his chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn’t really true. **

–Speaking in “we” terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don’t need to talk outside… Let’s go in."

–Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.

–Too many details. If a person is lying they will add excessive details to make themselves sound more credible to their chosen victim.

–Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: “Oh, I bet you’re too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me.” The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.

–Loan Sharking. Giving unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they’ll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.

–The Unsolicited Promise. A promise to do (or not do) something when no such promise is asked for; this usually means that such a promise will be broken. For example: an unsolicited, “I promise I’ll leave you alone after this,” usually means the chosen victim will not be left alone. Similarly, an unsolicited “I promise I won’t hurt you” usually means the person intends to hurt their chosen victim.

–Discounting the Word “No”. Refusing to accept rejection.

Interestingly, “loansharking” (attaching strings to unsolicited help) is on the list. Chevalier, that may explain why women are so wary and hostile toward your offers of help. Also, note the presence of “refusing to accept rejection” and “charm and niceness” (!).

I would suggest that any single man that is finding women recoiling from his friendly overtures (romantic and otherwise) have a look at the list and dial back or eliminate his behaviors that are on the list.

Remember, it’s not actually “nice” behavior if it makes women fear for their safety.

 

[Lookingforjoy]

I would suggest that any single man that is finding women recoiling from his friendly overtures (romantic and otherwise) have a look at the list and dial back or eliminate his behaviors that are on the list.

Remember, it’s not actually “nice” behavior if it makes women fear for their safety.

This, this, a million times this. If you’re consistently getting wary, angry responses maybe it’s a problem with your approach and not a problem with women in general.

 

[chevalier]

I’ve never seen that particular form of rudeness.

It happens from time to time, especially the feminist variety. Then again, few things in life are more rewarding than squiring a feminist up a bit. It can even be fun, in its own way.

But, on the other hand, since practically everybody here is helpful and polite to strangers, it doesn’t trigger alarm bells when somebody is helpful.

You’re from the South, aren’t you?

Anytime somebody does something atypical for a particular culture, one does have to raise the mental red flags. One bit of atypical behavior may indicate a lot of other atypical behavior.

There’s nothing wrong with atypical. Only wrong is ‘wrong’.

 

[chevalier]

I wasn’t clear what you meant. When you talked about women yelling hysterically “Step back!” that was the only scenario that made sense to me from personal experience, that there was unsolicited physical contact going on. So I took the liberty of translating “Step back!” (which I’ve never heard anybody say in real life) to “Get your hands off of me!”

Unsolicited physical contact from male strangers is, unfortunately, something that women in big cities have to learn to deal with, and yelling as loudly as possible and shaming them into stopping what they are doing is one of the options.

What I had in mind was a delivery person at the doorstep or a passer-by out in the streets, definitely not close quarters. Hence maybe the confusion. But when someone’s already putting hands on you, you yeel for him to get his hands off, not to step back. Anyway, looks like the hypothetical didn’t work.

A better example probably is someone barking some hateful things at you when you offer to lend a hand with a heavy bag, hold the door for someone or pay for a round at the bar.

And I’ve seen sensitivity/etiquette training material discouraging helping people, especially disabled people (to the general tune of ‘don’t presume’).

 

[chevalier]

Not to monopolize the thread, but “The Gift of Fear” has some very helpful thoughts.

How about fear mongering instead?

Here are some “pre-incident indicators” that violence is about to occur (I’ve cribbed the list from Wikipedia–it’s all verbatim):

Laughable.

–**Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that he has something in common with his chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn’t really true. **

It’s called connecting with people.

–Speaking in “we” terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don’t need to talk outside… Let’s go in."

Again, it’s called connecting with people. Or including them. Strictly speaking, you can’t make a proposal like ‘let’s go in’ without using a first person plural verb and matching personal pronoun. (Although the ‘we’ example does sound pushy.)

–Charm and Niceness. This is being polite and friendly to a chosen victim in order to manipulate him or her by disarming their mistrust.

It’s called social graces. Something not yet fully extinct.

–Too many details. If a person is lying they will add excessive details to make themselves sound more credible to their chosen victim.

Or perhaps he’s just a chatterbox. Or is simply talking to pass the time or entertain you.

–Typecasting. An insult is used to get a chosen victim who would otherwise ignore one to engage in conversation to counteract the insult. For example: “Oh, I bet you’re too stuck-up to talk to a guy like me.” The tendency is for the chosen victim to want to prove the insult untrue.

Insults are insults.

–Loan Sharking. Giving unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they’ll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.

Inspiring reciprocity is part of connecting. It isn’t always emotional blackmail.

Sometimes a gift or favour is used to initiate a conversation where it would be rude to come empty-handed. If you need company, it’s the courteous thing to buy a drink or do something else like that.

–The Unsolicited Promise. A promise to do (or not do) something when no such promise is asked for; this usually means that such a promise will be broken. For example: an unsolicited, “I promise I’ll leave you alone after this,” usually means the chosen victim will not be left alone. Similarly, an unsolicited “I promise I won’t hurt you” usually means the person intends to hurt their chosen victim.

Maybe, but intentionally creepy examples were selected, which means they aren’t representative of the broad group, only of the part that happens to confirm the the author’s generalization.

–Discounting the Word “No”. Refusing to accept rejection.

Depends what the question is about. People will often decline a first offer of help on the understanding that it was only a polite gesture of solidary and the offeror didn’t seriously mean to inconvenience himself/herself by actually helping. A repeat offer, more serious this time, serves to make it clear the offer was serious.

Chevalier, that may explain why women are so wary and hostile toward your offers of help.

They aren’t. I was talking about the attitude that transpires from posts in these forums and is promoted by fear-mongering egocentrism-encouraging man-hating feminist circles and the whole victim culture. Thankfully, I only very rarely come into any sort of interaction with that.

Also, note the presence of “refusing to accept rejection” and “charm and niceness” (!).

With that kind of paranoia and twisted logic simple politeness and decency can be redefined into predatorial behaviour. Heck, traditional courtesies well-received in some parts of Europe would probably get people hauled off to county jail on the spot with a sexual harassment charge in some other parts of the world.

I would suggest that any single man that is finding women recoiling from his friendly overtures (romantic and otherwise) have a look at the list and dial back or eliminate his behaviors that are on the list.

I suggest preserving one’s own sanity and that of other people’s rather than catering to and encouraging paranoia.

Remember, it’s not actually “nice” behavior if it makes women fear for their safety.

What makes some women fear for their safety is their brains. And the fear-mongering man-hating culture and victim mentality.

Give people an excuse and opportunity to see themselves as potential victims, and they’ll jump at it because it gives them a sense in life and enables them to feel important because it suddenly looks like the world revolves around them. Incidentally, that’s so unAmerican, at least in a traditional sense (victim mentality, especially potential victim mentality, is a u-turn from traditional American values such as being responsible for one’s own fate, industrious and enterprising and not voluntarily acting on primordial fear like a chased animal).

 

[Xantippe]

You’re from the South, aren’t you?

**No. I’m from the pre-Portlandia rural Pacific NW (a famously polite area, but not necessarily an effusively helpful one). I’ve lived in Southern California, St. Petersburg Russia (just for a term), the Russian Far East (two years), Pennsylvania, MD, WA DC and Baptist Texas. I’m also married into an Eastern European (not Russian) family and my sister is married into a Western European family and has lived there off an on for long periods of time.

So culture is one of the things I geek out over and I have had a lot of opportunities over the years to make local observations. (Notes from first pregnancy, mainly commuting within suburban MD–only had a seat offered to me on public transportation 4 times no matter how hugely pregnant I got, 3 of which were women, 1 of which was an older Russian guy that I think was put up to it by his wife. How many doors held for me in DC when I was pushing a double stroller and had both hands full–not sure, but it only happened once in a blue moon. Meanwhile, in TX, the percentage of doors held when I’m pushing a stroller is probably well into the 80s or 90s.)**

There’s nothing wrong with atypical. Only wrong is ‘wrong’.

Yes, but atypical will get you into a lot of unnecessary trouble.

Not conforming to basic social norms will often lead people to wonder (not unfairly), what other social norms does he ignore?

If we behave atypically (when it isn’t called for by moral duty) and we find that our life is socially speaking not a huge success, who is to blame for that but ourselves and our own pride and orneriness? (And with regard to moral duty, I have a lot of concerns about people who find that they are regularly in a position where moral duty calls them to offend or annoy the people around them.)

Remember, I have a daughter on the autism spectrum and I myself was almost certainly the same as a child, so for me, this is all very hard won knowledge. Learning to conform to the basic rules of whichever society I find myself in has been one of the major projects of my adulthood.

 

[Xantippe]

A better example probably is someone barking some hateful things at you when you offer to lend a hand with a heavy bag, hold the door for someone or pay for a round at the bar.

In that case (if doing all of those things was typical and polite in your culture), one of my first assumptions would be mental illness.

And I’ve seen sensitivity/etiquette training material discouraging helping people, especially disabled people (to the general tune of ‘don’t presume’).

Yes. And quite properly.

What I would suggest is watching for people who are telegraphing that they want help. If you see somebody scanning the crowd as if they wanted help, that might be a good time to offer. But if they are just getting on with it, why not leave them alone? Presumably, they had a general idea before they left home what the trip would entail.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s called connecting with people.

Again, it’s called connecting with people. Or including them. Strictly speaking, you can’t make a proposal like ‘let’s go in’ without using a first person plural verb and matching personal pronoun. (Although the ‘we’ example does sound pushy.)

**Presumably, the situation de Becker is thinking of is one where a stranger is chatting up another person (most likely a woman) outside and he’s persuading her to go inside (where, of course, he will be able to assault her more conveniently).
**

It’s called social graces. Something not yet fully extinct.

Or perhaps he’s just a chatterbox. Or is simply talking to pass the time or entertain you.

Insults are insults.
**
By the way, I was noting that that one is very similar to the “negging” talked about by PUAs.

xkcd.com/1027/**

Inspiring reciprocity is part of connecting. It isn’t always emotional blackmail.

Any one of those things might be OK, but when one encounters several of them coming from the same person, wariness is in order.

Sometimes a gift or favour is used to initiate a conversation where it would be rude to come empty-handed. If you need company, it’s the courteous thing to buy a drink or do something else like that.

And getting women tipsy is often a prelude to sexually assaulting them.

Maybe, but intentionally creepy examples were selected, which means they aren’t representative of the broad group, only of the part that happens to confirm the the author’s generalization.

**Presumably, those are the problematic ones.

I think it is very helpful to listen to what people say when they say stuff like, “I would NEVER do XYZ,” or “I wouldn’t even think about doing ABC.” Because, guess what, they have been thinking about ABC and XYZ.

That is actually a very useful survival skill to teach naive and trusting young people (which is who the list is particularly helpful for).**

Depends what the question is about. People will often decline a first offer of help on the understanding that it was only a polite gesture of solidary and the offeror didn’t seriously mean to inconvenience himself/herself by actually helping. A repeat offer, more serious this time, serves to make it clear the offer was serious.

From a stranger, that could be very creepy and threatening.

They aren’t. I was talking about the attitude that transpires from posts in these forums and is promoted by fear-mongering egocentrism-encouraging man-hating feminist circles and the whole victim culture. Thankfully, I only very rarely come into any sort of interaction with that.

That’s great. You were making it sound like these were your personal experiences, hence my concern that you were doing stuff that was making a lot of people uncomfortable.

With that kind of paranoia and twisted logic simple politeness and decency can be redefined into predatorial behaviour. Heck, traditional courtesies well-received in some parts of Europe would probably get people hauled off to county jail on the spot with a sexual harassment charge in some other parts of the world.

**Remember, what’s acceptable is determined by local cultural norms.

Hand-kissing in Poland might be acceptable, but it would look really pervy in the US.

Again, if what you are doing is making people afraid and you know that and keep doing it, it isn’t actually “nice.” **

I suggest preserving one’s own sanity and that of other people’s rather than catering to and encouraging paranoia.

What makes some women fear for their safety is their brains. And the fear-mongering man-hating culture and victim mentality.

**No, what makes some women fear for their safety is having been victims (or near victims) of assault and knowing that their friends have been victims (or near victims) of assault. **

Give people an excuse and opportunity to see themselves as potential victims, and they’ll jump at it because it gives them a sense in life and enables them to feel important because it suddenly looks like the world revolves around them.

Incidentally, that’s so unAmerican, at least in a traditional sense (victim mentality, especially potential victim mentality, is a u-turn from traditional American values such as being responsible for one’s own fate, industrious and enterprising and not voluntarily acting on primordial fear like a chased animal).

It has never been true in any time or any place that women could get away with not thinking about their personal safety.

Again, you are forgetting how much blaming happens when a woman is sexually assaulted. Why was she talking or drinking with a strange man? Why did she accept a ride? Why did she allow a man into her home or go to a man’s home? Didn’t she know that that automatically means sex? (!!!) Etc, etc.

Women are expected to take total responsibility for their safety, and that means that women are (frequently) very vigilant.

I can’t say how disgusted I am by the idea that on the one hand, women are totally responsible to keep themselves from being raped, and on the other hand, blames women for being unfriendly or standoffish.

 

[pianistclare]

It has never been true in any time or any place that women could get away with not thinking about their personal safety.

Again, you are forgetting how much blaming happens when a woman is sexually assaulted. Why was she talking or drinking with a strange man? Why did she accept a ride? Why did she allow a man into her home or go to a man’s home? Didn’t she know that that automatically means sex? (!!!) Etc, etc.

Women are expected to take total responsibility for their safety, and that means that women are (frequently) very vigilant.

I can’t say how disgusted I am by the idea that on the one hand, women are totally responsible to keep themselves from being raped, and on the other hand, blames women for being unfriendly or standoffish.

This^^^.

The main difference is that women seldom want to throw blame on men for dating faux pas. But men tend to think that the fault must lie with the women. They are cold, they are unkind, they are stuck-up, they are shallow. Women however, believe men to be clueless.
Just sayin’

There’s a lot of single men on CAF that seem to be really great guys (in type, anyway) …
but there also many (not speaking of the OP) that seem to be really “off” in their thinking about dating, women in general, and social interaction.

I think many men think that they should be naturally born with great moves, great lines, and it’s just natural to attract great “devout” ( a word thrown around here quite a bit here)
women. That is seldom the case. Just like all women are not the same personality type, why is it so hard to think that one size doesn’t fit all? Conversely, there ARE distinct red flags, as outlined in the Fear article. Ask any profiler. Those things are the stuff of countless Dateline & 20/20 episodes. Nobody’s laughing.
Women are constantly having to assess and protect themselves.
Kindness, a gentle spirit, strength when warranted, a genuineness; that’s what women seek and describe… I can assure you…all women recognize it, and the DO respond.
There’s been some great discussion here. Good thread.

 

[Xantippe]

With regard to why disabled people might be wary of help from strangers, I just found the following:

psmag.com/politics-and-law/the-invisible-hate-crime-27984

“Hate crimes against people with disabilities are widespread and often involve extraordinary levels of sadism. The first step in combating these shameful incidents is an acknowledgment that they exist.”

“Still, attacks on people with disabilities are often overlooked because many people are not aware of the extreme vulnerability to maltreatment that accompanies such disorders as cerebral palsy, autism, multiple sclerosis, learning disabilities and mental illness — even though, according to anonymous victim accounts from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the 54 million Americans with disabilities experience serious violence at a rate nearly twice that of the general population. Their risk of being a victim of sexual assault is at least four times higher than that of people without disabilities. In 2008 alone, Americans with disabilities were victims of about 47,000 rapes, 79,000 robberies, 114,000 aggravated assaults and 476,000 simple assaults. Adding to the trauma of victimization, people with disabilities are much less likely than able-bodied victims to seek medical treatment for their injuries, often choosing, instead, to suffer in silence.”

 

[Sarcelle]

This^^^.

The main difference is that women seldom want to throw blame on men for dating faux pas. But men tend to think that the fault must lie with the women. They are cold, they are unkind, they are stuck-up, they are shallow. Women however, believe men to be clueless.
Just sayin’

There’s a lot of single men on CAF that seem to be really great guys (in type, anyway) …
but there also many (not speaking of the OP) that seem to be really “off” in their thinking about dating, women in general, and social interaction.

I think many men think that they should be naturally born with great moves, great lines, and it’s just natural to attract great “devout” ( a word thrown around here quite a bit here)
women. That is seldom the case. Just like all women are not the same personality type, why is it so hard to think that one size doesn’t fit all? Conversely, there ARE distinct red flags, as outlined in the Fear article. Ask any profiler. Those things are the stuff of countless Dateline & 20/20 episodes. Nobody’s laughing.
Women are constantly having to assess and protect themselves.
Kindness, a gentle spirit, strength when warranted, a genuineness; that’s what women seek and describe… I can assure you…all women recognize it, and the DO respond.
There’s been some great discussion here. Good thread.

The OP was honest enough to admit he has a hard time viewing women as humans. I bet you he isn’t the only man here who does.

Seriously, would any right thinking man or woman want to be with someone who does not view them as human?

 

[chevalier]

I’ve never seen that particular form of rudeness.

Some threads and posts here tend to look that way. I was also under the impression that it didn’t bother you, judging from your posts and from your criticism of all of my statements to the effect that this sort of rudeness is not acceptable.

 

[Xantippe]

Some threads and posts here tend to look that way. I was also under the impression that it didn’t bother you, judging from your posts and from your criticism of all of my statements to the effect that this sort of rudeness is not acceptable.

I just don’t believe that there’s an epidemic of women snapping at helpful male strangers. I’ve lived literally all over the US (as well as doing some time abroad–lived and worked in Russia for a good stretch, traveled in a number of other countries) and never, ever seen it.

I think it’s a totally mythological or purely internet-based phenomenon.

Or, if there are men who encounter the issue regularly, I think they are almost certainly violating the principles that I quoted from “The Gift of Fear” or engaging in some other kind of extreme faux pas.

 

[chevalier]

Not conforming to basic social norms will often lead people to wonder (not unfairly), what other social norms does he ignore?

I disagree with that. From my point of view, it looks like you’re the person advocating for social norms to be ignored here. The norms I have in mind are basic politeness like ‘thank you but no’ and restraint from unnecessary ranting or yelling when declining something one doesn’t want. The most universal norms are: don’t insult people, don’t be mean, don’t accuse without a good reason. They are moral in nature, not etiquettal.

In that case (if doing all of those things was typical and polite in your culture), one of my first assumptions would be mental illness.

Mine too, which I was I try to be sparing in my criticism. However, it also happens in the garden variety, milder form of mental illness, which is personality issue, and everybody has some, and they don’t really excuse just about anything and everything a person feels like barking at others.

If you see somebody scanning the crowd as if they wanted help, that might be a good time to offer. But if they are just getting on with it, why not leave them alone?

From my point of view, that sounds almost like ‘why be human’ (why have or show compassion, be kind, whatever).

Presumably, they had a general idea before they left home what the trip would entail.

Presumably they had no choice and just had to take the trip. It’s fine if they don’t want help. What’s not fine is failing to decline kindly or especially insulting the person who was offering (accusations, diatribes etc.). Decline yes. Voice accusation no. How much simpler can I make it?

Presumably, the situation de Becker is thinking of is one where a stranger is chatting up another person (most likely a woman) outside and he’s persuading her to go inside (where, of course, he will be able to assault her more conveniently).

Again, just decline. There is no need to lace it with insults or voice accusations and suspicions right there to that person. Keep those to yourself. (In any case, jumping to conclusions about someone’s moral character is actually morally wrong.)

Any one of those things might be OK, but when one encounters several of them coming from the same person, wariness is in order.

No argument there. However, wariness does not automatically entitle the wary person to cut out polite forms, ‘magic words’ like ‘please’, ‘thank you’, ‘sorry’ etc. or especially to treat the other person with disdain, speak to him/her with disdain, voice accusations or insults.

And getting women tipsy is often a prelude to sexually assaulting them.

A drink doesn’t have to be alcoholic Besides, we’re all responsible adults and know our own limits. Doesn’t justify talking down to the person you’re declining, like he/she is a creep or potential assailant. ‘No, thank you,’ is enough to say. The rest (including tone of voice) is freaking out and taking it out on people.

From a stranger, that could be very creepy and threatening.

Only creepy for someone who’s on the lookout for creepy. (And accustomed to thinking of fellow human beings as creepy. Which is creepy in itself, by the way, and in a very high degree.)

That’s great. You were making it sound like these were your personal experiences, hence my concern that you were doing stuff that was making a lot of people uncomfortable.

No, you’re jumping to conclusions and exaggerating a lot in order to justify people’s rude responses and abandonment of traditional kindness and basic politeness that mums and grannies used to teach people in any place on the globe.

Hand-kissing in Poland might be acceptable, but it would look really pervy in the US.

To a perverted mind. And depends who and which part of the US. Some people in the South still do it, and maybe in the more traditional circles in New England. Heck, my ex knew to give the right hand if married, left if not, and she wasn’t from the Deep South, went to college in the North.

No, what makes some women fear for their safety is having been victims (or near victims) of assault and knowing that their friends have been victims (or near victims) of assault.

You’ve got some high rates for that over there, true, but the fear-mongering culture with victim mentality that encourages shutting off and entering survival mode, treating other people like hostiles, that’s also there.

Again, you are forgetting how much blaming happens when a woman is sexually assaulted.

No, I know what some defence counsel do.

Why was she talking or drinking with a strange man?

For company, as far as I go.

Why did she accept a ride?

Because it was convenient.

Why did she allow a man into her home or go to a man’s home?

Conversation, hanging out.

Didn’t she know that that automatically means sex? (!!!) Etc, etc.

Perhaps to a defence lawyer desperately in need of disbarring and IQ test.

I can’t say how disgusted I am by the idea that on the one hand, women are totally responsible to keep themselves from being raped, and on the other hand, blames women for being unfriendly or standoffish.

Stopping rape is the responsibility of the society and the state, and obviously it’s the responsibility of anyone not to assault others.

As for being unfriendly, that’s a personal choice. (As well as a far distance from standoffish to rude or snappy.)

 

[chevalier]

But men tend to think that the fault must lie with the women. They are cold, they are unkind, they are stuck-up, they are shallow. Women however, believe men to be clueless.
Just sayin’

‘Stuck-up’ sounds like a stupid complaint by a guy who can’t get over the fact that a woman has standards that he doesn’t seem to meet. Or a manipulator who’s making her concede some favours so that she can prove she’s inclusive (e.g. if there is a difference in race or wealth between her and him).

Shallow? Some are, some not. Let’s not judge the book by the cover and in any case not too early. To some extent the same goes for cold.

However, rudeness is indeed there. I come across rudeness in women’s behaviour more often than in men’s. Women rather frequently tend to have a certain sense of entitlement and superiority when talking to men, considering themselves unbound by the same norms which apply when it’s a man talking to a woman or two people of the same sex talking. Either that or just in a habit of taking liberties.

There’s a lot of single men on CAF that seem to be really great guys (in type, anyway) …
but there also many (not speaking of the OP) that seem to be really “off” in their thinking about dating, women in general

And perhaps for good reason.

Kindness, a gentle spirit, strength when warranted, a genuineness; that’s what women seek and describe… I can assure you…all women recognize it, and the DO respond.

Yes, and sometimes they even respond without a gratuitous jab or two. Happens in real life. Not so much on Internet message boards.

 

[chevalier]

With regard to why disabled people might be wary of help from strangers, I just found the following:

psmag.com/politics-and-law/the-invisible-hate-crime-27984

“Hate crimes against people with disabilities are widespread and often involve extraordinary levels of sadism. The first step in combating these shameful incidents is an acknowledgment that they exist.”

“Still, attacks on people with disabilities are often overlooked because many people are not aware of the extreme vulnerability to maltreatment that accompanies such disorders as cerebral palsy, autism, multiple sclerosis, learning disabilities and mental illness — even though, according to anonymous victim accounts from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the 54 million Americans with disabilities experience serious violence at a rate nearly twice that of the general population. Their risk of being a victim of sexual assault is at least four times higher than that of people without disabilities. In 2008 alone, Americans with disabilities were victims of about 47,000 rapes, 79,000 robberies, 114,000 aggravated assaults and 476,000 simple assaults. Adding to the trauma of victimization, people with disabilities are much less likely than able-bodied victims to seek medical treatment for their injuries, often choosing, instead, to suffer in silence.”

I have five different adverse spinal conditions and yet I don’t complain about lending someone a hand with something heavy. I don’t need or want to hear — hypothetically — anybody’s paranoid conclusions about me being criminal or about his/her [insert relevant minority/special group] being able to fend for themselves. For starts, how about being as polite as everyone else is supposed to be, without any special ranting rights or a leave to insult people?

The OP was honest enough to admit he has a hard time viewing women as humans. I bet you he isn’t the only man here who does.

You might as well spell it out clearly rather than allowing it to hang in the air. It has already been said. (Besides, the OP is focusing on human as in not alien, whereas you’re focusing on human vs subhuman more, and that’s not necessarily the same thing.)

I just don’t believe that there’s an epidemic of women snapping at helpful male strangers.

The whole discussion was started pretty much by my strong opposition to the idea that social norms of politeness aren’t binding on women. Epidemic or not didn’t enter the question.

This said, if I need to be honest, I do believe that many women these days are snappy and act in antipathetic ways and refuse to get their act together. Guess someone had to say it, because it’s true, even though it’s not something I’d bring up just to troll people with. In other words, women tend to act like the proverbial alcoholic dad from ACA materials.

(Nothing should be done which might displease an alcoholic dad in the slightest, even potentially. Or else it’s your fault if he beats up you and your siblings and mum too. It’s never dad’s fault, always yours or at least someone else’s. Dad cannot be expected to show normal human self control. Etc. etc. This is the typical woman online these days. Not like men are all lovely people to hang out with, either, but anyway.)