Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

[DavidKays]

I am Greek Orthodox and I will like to respond to the best of my ability without upsetting too many people. You mentioned that the Orthodox are seperated and are in schism. I beg to differ. The basis for unity in my understanding is the Eucharist. Both East and West have the complete Apostolic and continued Sacramental Priesthood handed down from the Apostles. Peter considered the Leader was given by Our Lord a Primacy that is still continued today. However I noticed in these forums a lack of understanding of who the Orthodox are and what and how were their Apostolic Foundation formed and to what their relationship were to the Church of Rome. Both East and West have Apostolic Claims and both contain valid sacraments and priesthood. I am writing a book which will contain some references that I am writing today. The book though will be on many topics hopefully to clarify alot of misunderstanding that exists today. Remember there were 12 Apostles.To put it simply, Peter founded the Church in Rome and became the first Pope. The other 11 or 10 since John was called by our Lord to take care of His Mother and probably was not a missionary apostle like the others formed other churches and their successors are the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic bishops we see today. Our local Orthodox Bishop can trace his origin to one of the other 11 apostles. As the other 11 founded and ordained bishops to replace them these bishops formed what we call today the Eastern Church. The Apostolic College still exists today with the Pope in Rome and the Eastern Bishops in the East. It is not only the Pope but we have also the successors of the other Apostles. The Apostolic College is still with us. The successors of the original 12 are still around. The formation of East and West was important to God. Peter still represented by the Pope in Rome, the other 11 represented by the Eastern Church. It is important to know why God establish His Church this way and to put away any misunderstandings. In his writings Pope John Paul II wrote about the East in this way. " The Pope listens to the East." This is a Petrine ministry given to the Popes that when they listen to the word of God and know the truth of it they will act upon it. The East formed by the other 11 can assist Peter in his ministry. The East also has God’s Spirit and so the word of God can sometimes comes from sources like the East. The Pope has also said that the church must breath again her two lungs. Notice he said two lungs. And one lung is not better than the other. The Eastern Church must have her rightful claim. In fact in my book I will claim that there is no shcism at all and there is no division. If there is any division at all it occurs because we have allowed it and continue to allow it. In my book I will explain that politics got involved and that this so called seperation occurred because back then it was political involved and motivated. God’s Church is spiritual motivated not polictical. Back then who knows what emperors and rulers dictated the day. God was not pleased and decided to remove the political powers that caused this seperation. The moslems conquered the Eastern empire and the West also broke up. With the politics removed now the Church can go on its buisiness to evangelize but we still quabble about the past. Bury it! The Church is a Spititual Force and the Church with the Church of Rome and the East needs to put away past behavour and go on to do God’s work. There was no split and the Church must discover this and go on with that relationship they had with each other before the arguement or disagreement. Even His Holiness Pope John Paul II wrote that he is willingly to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church Of Rome had before the seperation. Read your Pope. He is a saintly man. To say that the Orthodox do not adhere to the Primacy of the Pope is wrong. It was the Eastern Churches at the time of the first ecumenical councils alongside the Church of Rome that decided to put on paper some decrees of which the Pope in Rome has primacy. If the Orthodox do not adhere to this then they are not accepting their own council decrees and believe me no one obeys the early councils like the Orthodox. If they do not accept Papal claims it is because in my opinion they were hurt. There were alot of hurt imposed those days and needs to be healed. It is to that healing that I pray for. Not to return as some say to the Church of Rome. There is no return neccessary. No one left anyone. There was alot of hurt and in almost 1000 years we forget each other to the point by explaining to each other why we are seperated. We are not seperated. Too much time had gone by to heal the wound. Or as I wrote in my book too much was negleted. Let us remember His Holiness words. We have the power to heal wounds. Pray that God will enable us to see us as He sees us and to realize that God desires this healing so we can see in each other this unity which exists and which can never be severed. I have a brother and when I argue with him I cannot severe my relationship with him. I may not want to see him. But that would only hurt me. As long as I wish not to see him I continue the arguement. But he still my brother no matter what. When I come to my brother let us not bring up the arguement. Let me say I am sorry for I need my brother because he is as part of me as I am of him. It is to that relationship that I pray for that the Pope His Holiness John Paul II also desires and to which every Orthodox and Catholic will embrace.

 

[osddso]

your question reminds me of part one of the catechism of the catholic church where in the very beginning they talk about mans ability to reason and his ability to have knowledge of God etc.

id focus less on drafting up a table of pros and cons to both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxism (if thats even a word). the pros and cons of each form of faith are useless because we arent here to praise at our convience, we are here for God, to do his work.

i never ever ever listen to what someone who isnt catholic says…doesnt mean they are wrong. its just im not gonna put my questions about faith in the hands of someone who isnt catholic.

go get yourself the catechism of the catholic church. start with that. its got about 756 pages (the rest are all indexs and such) and read that. its a pretty quick read. and its not so confusing either. read that.

then read what it is the orthodox read that describes the belief they have and explains why they do what they do.

after you read both, which ever one makes you feel closer to God, NOT whichever one is easier, but which ever one makes you feel more at home with God (believe me, when you get the feeling of being close to God you will know) and chose that route of worship

 

[osddso]

i agree with what DavidKays wrote about uniting.

id love to see us back as one. i think we have so many of the same beliefs, i dont know much about orthodox form of faith, but i dont have any feelings of “oh great here comes a orthodox ready to tell me how wrong catholicisim is.” the way i do when i am about to discuss faith with a protestant.

the only problem i have stated in other posts are people who never read the ccc, telling me what catholics believe, and they know this because they were raised catholic. thats usually followed by some absurd remark like i got last night in the christiandatingforfree chat room which was “people pray to mary for meditation” i told them “no we dont” but he swore he knew the truth because he was a convert to protestantism.

anyway, while i dont doubt i my mind that one of the bishops can trace his lineage back to one of the other 11 apostles, i know it isnt Peter…thats our Pope’s lineage

 

[Formosus]

This question is probably better answered by Catholics because I’m looking for the Catholic point of view. Why do we Catholics consider the Roman church to be the true church of Jesus Christ when Christianity first spread to predominately Greek-speaking parts of the East before it ever reached Rome? Doubtless Sts. Peter and Paul did go to Rome and spread the message of Christ, but what is making us say that the East split from the West and not the other way around? I’m a bit confused–it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense at the moment.

I don’t consider the Roman Church to be the True Church. I consider it to be a True Church among many spanning multiple cultures , from Latin to Greek. Coptic to Assyrian. The East and West , IMO, split from each other and until both sides gain the humility to fully acknowledge their errors and misunderstandings no healing or unity will come. If the question is , “why do I remain a Catholic and not become Orthodox” it is because the unity and primacy of Peter is important. The position of the Pope as viewed by the Latins, is over exaggerated and exalted beyond the bounds laid down in the Apostolic and Patristic Church, but a Church without Peter’s primacy is not the fullness of the Church. The fathers recognized this in the first seven Ecumenical councils. Also, as I mentioned above, it is only in the Catholic Communion where I, a Byzantine, can go to a Coptic, maronite, armenian, or Latin church and be confident the the fullness of the Faith is present in all of these.

 

[Ghosty]

Also, as I mentioned above, it is only in the Catholic Communion where I, a Byzantine, can go to a Coptic, maronite, armenian, or Latin church and be confident the the fullness of the Faith is present in all of these.

This is my answer as well. Our Creed says “catholic”, and there is only one “Catholic” Church that also insists upon Apostolic continuity. There are other Apostolic Churches and Communions, but none of them are Catholic besides that which is united to the See of Rome, the ultimate Petrine See. For me that means more than any internet proof-texting.

It is a miracle that I can partake of all the Apostolic traditions within one Communion, without deviation from Tradition, and that miracle is enough for me to recognize Christ’s Body as being fully united with the Roman Pope.

The Church is not Roman, but the Catholic Church is most definitely only found when completely united with the See of Rome. There has not ever been an other Communion that has any claim to this Creedal title.

Peace and God bless!

 

[WetCatechumen]

This is my answer as well. Our Creed says “catholic”, and there is only one “Catholic” Church that also insists upon Apostolic continuity. There are other Apostolic Churches and Communions, but none of them are Catholic besides that which is united to the See of Rome, the ultimate Petrine See. For me that means more than any internet proof-texting.

It is a miracle that I can partake of all the Apostolic traditions within one Communion, without deviation from Tradition, and that miracle is enough for me to recognize Christ’s Body as being fully united with the Roman Pope.

The Church is not Roman, but the Catholic Church is most definitely only found when completely united with the See of Rome. There has not ever been an other Communion that has any claim to this Creedal title.

Peace and God bless!

Of all of the communions, she is the only one who truly claims the title Catholic. The Easterners and the Orientals style their churches “orthodox”. The Old Catholics were sure to emphasize the “Old”, and the Anglicans quickly became the Church of England.

While Catholic is contained in their creeds, the only church who calls herself Catholic is the Catholic Church. Oddly enough. It doesn’t mean it’s true, but it’s interesting.

 

[Mickey]

Is the 4th century ECF enough for you? St Ephrem said this…

Now you are putting words in St Ephrem’s mouth!!!
Try again.

I am, however, interested in the quote by St Ephrem. Can you please provide the source? Thank you.

 

[Mickey]

I would like to note that John Calvin explicitly made the connection

LOL!

Ask for a church father—and get Jean Cauvin!

Out of curiousity, how does Mr Calvin phrase his connection.

 

[Mickey]

IsWhile I [not being Ephrem] would have made the exegesis like this … thus having received that authority and establishing His Kingdom, Jesus bestowed upon Peter the cloak of Eliakim with the keys and authority over the people such that what he opens and closes on Earth will be opened and shut Heaven …

You are correct. You surely are not St Ephrem.

St Ephrem the Syrian believed that the “keys” were given to all Christians.

 

[chrisb]

I am Greek Orthodox and I will like to respond to the best of my ability without upsetting too many people. You mentioned that the Orthodox are seperated and are in schism. I beg to differ. The basis for unity in my understanding is the Eucharist. Both East and West have the complete Apostolic and continued Sacramental Priesthood handed down from the Apostles. Peter considered the Leader was given by Our Lord a Primacy that is still continued today. However I noticed in these forums a lack of understanding of who the Orthodox are and what and how were their Apostolic Foundation formed and to what their relationship were to the Church of Rome. Both East and West have Apostolic Claims and both contain valid sacraments and priesthood. I am writing a book which will contain some references that I am writing today. The book though will be on many topics hopefully to clarify alot of misunderstanding that exists today. Remember there were 12 Apostles.To put it simply, Peter founded the Church in Rome and became the first Pope. The other 11 or 10 since John was called by our Lord to take care of His Mother and probably was not a missionary apostle like the others formed other churches and their successors are the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic bishops we see today. Our local Orthodox Bishop can trace his origin to one of the other 11 apostles. As the other 11 founded and ordained bishops to replace them these bishops formed what we call today the Eastern Church. The Apostolic College still exists today with the Pope in Rome and the Eastern Bishops in the East. It is not only the Pope but we have also the successors of the other Apostles. The Apostolic College is still with us. The successors of the original 12 are still around. The formation of East and West was important to God. Peter still represented by the Pope in Rome, the other 11 represented by the Eastern Church. It is important to know why God establish His Church this way and to put away any misunderstandings. In his writings Pope John Paul II wrote about the East in this way. " The Pope listens to the East." This is a Petrine ministry given to the Popes that when they listen to the word of God and know the truth of it they will act upon it. The East formed by the other 11 can assist Peter in his ministry. The East also has God’s Spirit and so the word of God can sometimes comes from sources like the East. The Pope has also said that the church must breath again her two lungs. Notice he said two lungs. And one lung is not better than the other. The Eastern Church must have her rightful claim. In fact in my book I will claim that there is no shcism at all and there is no division. If there is any division at all it occurs because we have allowed it and continue to allow it. In my book I will explain that politics got involved and that this so called seperation occurred because back then it was political involved and motivated. God’s Church is spiritual motivated not polictical. Back then who knows what emperors and rulers dictated the day. God was not pleased and decided to remove the political powers that caused this seperation. The moslems conquered the Eastern empire and the West also broke up. With the politics removed now the Church can go on its buisiness to evangelize but we still quabble about the past. Bury it! The Church is a Spititual Force and the Church with the Church of Rome and the East needs to put away past behavour and go on to do God’s work. There was no split and the Church must discover this and go on with that relationship they had with each other before the arguement or disagreement. Even His Holiness Pope John Paul II wrote that he is willingly to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church Of Rome had before the seperation. Read your Pope. He is a saintly man. To say that the Orthodox do not adhere to the Primacy of the Pope is wrong. It was the Eastern Churches at the time of the first ecumenical councils alongside the Church of Rome that decided to put on paper some decrees of which the Pope in Rome has primacy. If the Orthodox do not adhere to this then they are not accepting their own council decrees and believe me no one obeys the early councils like the Orthodox. If they do not accept Papal claims it is because in my opinion they were hurt. There were alot of hurt imposed those days and needs to be healed. It is to that healing that I pray for. Not to return as some say to the Church of Rome. There is no return neccessary. No one left anyone. There was alot of hurt and in almost 1000 years we forget each other to the point by explaining to each other why we are seperated. We are not seperated. Too much time had gone by to heal the wound. Or as I wrote in my book too much was negleted. Let us remember His Holiness words. We have the power to heal wounds. Pray that God will enable us to see us as He sees us and to realize that God desires this healing so we can see in each other this unity which exists and which can never be severed. I have a brother and when I argue with him I cannot severe my relationship with him. I may not want to see him. But that would only hurt me. As long as I wish not to see him I continue the arguement. But he still my brother no matter what. When I come to my brother let us not bring up the arguement. Let me say I am sorry for I need my brother because he is as part of me as I am of him. It is to that relationship that I pray for that the Pope His Holiness John Paul II also desires and to which every Orthodox and Catholic will embrace.

Grace and Peace DavidKays,

Thank for your very kind and thoughtful post… it’s rare to see this much kindness from Orthodox Posters here and I must say it’s a breath of fresh air…

God Bless You!

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Mickey,

LOL!

Ask for a church father—and get Jean Cauvin!

Out of curiousity, how does Mr Calvin phrase his connection.

The reference was not for you, but for brother Yada who used to be Protestant. Your snideness does a great disservice to Eastern Orthodoxy. You used to be so humble as a Catholic, but your snide character, often displayed, I think will make people wonder about what being EO does to people.

FYI, here is what John Calvin wrote in his commentary on Isaiah 22:22:
The keys of the house are delivered to those who are appointed to be stewards that they may have the full power of opening and shutting according to their own pleasure. This mode of expression was customary among the people, because it had been promised to David that his kingdom would be for ever…and the prophet does not here describe any hidden mystery, but borrows a comparison from the ordinary practice of men, as if the keys were delivered to one who has been appointed to be steward, as has been already said. For the same reason Christ calls the office of teaching the word “the keys of the kingdom of heaven;” so that it is idle and foolish to spend much time in endeavouring to find a hidden reason, when the matter is plain and needs no ingenuity. By the keys, therefore, he means here the government of the king’s house, because the principal charge of it would be delivered to Eliakim at the proper time.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

The reference was not for you, but for brother Yada who used to be Protestant.

Sorry.

Your snideness does a great disservice to Eastern Orthodoxy.

How sad that you feel this way. That was a very uncharitable comment.

You used to be so humble as a Catholic, but your snide character, often displayed, I think will make people wonder about what being EO does to people.

I attempt to work at the virtue of humility on a daily basis. I am very far from being a humble man. But I do not call people names (such as snide) and I do not tell them that they are doing a disservice to their tradition.

 

[Mickey]

FYI, here is what John Calvin wrote in his commentary on Isaiah 22:22:

Indeed, Mr Calvin makes an Isaiah connection. But he does not make the connection that the keys were given to St Peter only. And again, John Calvin is not a Church Father.

PS–I apologize if you feel that my posts are snide. When I was a Catholic apologist, the protestants used to call me many names also.

 

[YADA]

Now you are putting words in St Ephrem’s mouth!!!
Try again.

I am, however, interested in the quote by St Ephrem. Can you please provide the source? Thank you.

See here:
newadvent.org/fathers/3706.htm

you have to go to paragraph [chapter /] 52 … I’ll copy it for you though

1. Then Mary received her firstborn and went forth. He was outwardly wrapped in swaddling clothes, but secretly He was clothed with prophecy and priesthood. Whatsoever then was handed down from Moses, was received from Simeon, but continued and was possessed by the Lord of both. So then the steward first, and the treasurer lastly, handed over the keys of priesthood and prophecy to Him who has authority over the treasurer of them both. Therefore, His Father gave Him the spirit not by measure, John 3:34 because all measures of the spirit are under his hand.** And that our Lord might show that He received the keys from the former stewards, He said to Simeon: To you I will give the keys of the doors**. Matthew 16:19 But how should He have given them to another, had He not received them from another? So, then, the keys which He had received from Simeon the priest, them He gave to another Simeon the Apostle; that even though the People had not hearkened to the former Simeon, the Gentiles might hearken to the latter Simeon.

bolding mine … I apoloize for not posting the link

 

[YADA]

You are correct. You surely are not St Ephrem.

St Ephrem the Syrian believed that the “keys” were given to all Christians.

Well, he also believed that Peter [Simon] received the keys so that the Gentiles would listen to him
in a unique manner … as you can read for your self …as I did provide the link … plus the entire treatise is worthy of reflection …

 

[YADA]

Dear brother Mickey,

The reference was not for you, but for brother Yada who used to be Protestant.

Blessings,
Marduk

Thanks for the quote … I am not sure that I had seen that beofre … I have read some of Calvin before and I had a Scripture professor whose thology was very ‘calvinistic’ a Presbyterian … though I can’t say as I enjoyed him but it did make for lively discourse in class discussions …

I had a Lutheran Dead Sea Scroll scholar the same term … lively discussion there too but I enjoyed it so much more …

Perhaps it was a ‘personality thing’

Blessings …

 

[Mickey]

Well, he also believed that Peter [Simon] received the keys so that the Gentiles would listen to him
in a unique manner … as you can read for your self …as I did provide the link … plus the entire treatise is worthy of reflection …

Amen. They all received the keys.

 

[chrisb]

Amen. They all received the keys.

Orthodox Scholars, like Olivier Clement, recognize that the Church in the East recognized a distinction between the See of Rome and the other Sees. Why did they turn to Rome to reconstitute the Eastern Sees after the Iconoclasm?

Honestly, after we in the West recover from our own Iconoclasm after Vatican II I think we’ll need the East to reconstitute our Church.

 

[Abu]

The thread title encourages me to refer you all to Living Tradition in which you may find a gold mine of information.at: rtforum.org/lt/index.html

The relevant article to the thread by a priest from Australia, whom I know, is at:
rtforum.org/lt/lt133.html#Harrison

From Constantinople to Rome: Why I did not join the Eastern Orthodox Church
by Brian W. Harrison, O.S.

NB: This article is a slightly edited version of a talk given at the Trialogos Festival in Tallinn, Estonia, on September 28, 2007. The previous day’s talk had been entitled “From Geneva to Constantinople” in which the author explained why he had become disillusioned with the Calvinistic Protestantism of his upbringing. It was in turn based on an earlier Living Tradition article, “Logic and the Foundations of Protestantism” (no. 18, July 1988).

 

[sdtouchton]

A comparison between Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body. They are one and cannot be separated.
What happened to the One also happens to the other.

Jesus Christ persecuted…His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church persecuted…
They rebelled against His Authority…They rebel against its Authority. 2Peter 2:10
They said Crucify Him…They have tried to destroy it for 2000 years.
He is called Beelzebub…It is run by Satan. Matthew 10:25.
He is a false messiah…It is a false church. Luke 22:70-71
He called Himself the Son of GOD…It claims it was founded by GOD, Matthew 16:18.
He called Himself Truth…It claims to be infallible, 1Timothy 3:15.
He called Himself King…It says it is the only true Church, Matthew 16:18.
He could not sin…It has no spot or wrinkle, Ephesians 5:27.
He was not be believed by many…It is not believed by many. Luke 22:67
He was denied by many…It is denied by many. Luke 22:57-60
Not understanding Him, they walked away…Not understanding it, they walk away. John 6:66
He had false accusers…It has false accusers. Mark 14:56-59
He was mocked…It is mocked. Luke 23:35-37
He was scandalized…It is scandalized. Luke 17:1-2
He was hated without a cause…It is hated without a cause. John 15:18-25
His accuser, Judas, died…Its accusers die, but still, the Church lives on.
His enemies would stumble and fall…Its enemies stumble and fall. John 18:6
We have no king but Caesar…We have no need of it, as we have the Bible.
Can anything good come out of Nazareth?..Can anything good come from Rome? John 1:46
They cried out, “Not this one but Barabbas”…It is also rejected by the world. John 15:18-25
He bore His Cross…It bears a cross also, the cross of persecution.
He died on the Cross…It has thousands of martyrs, many on crosses.

1970 years later, He lives, stronger than ever…1970 years later, it lives, stronger than ever.

However, no matter how hard the persecutors try…
His Kingdom will last forever, Daniel 7:14, Hebrews 1:8.
His Church will last until the end of the world as promised by Him in Matthew 28:20.
“BEHOLD, I HAVE GIVEN YOU POWER TO TREAD UPON SERPENTS AND SCORPIONS, AND OVER ALL THE MIGHT OF THE ENEMY; AND NOTHING SHALL HURT YOU.”
Luke 10:19

“Do not be a stumbling block to Jews and Greeks AND TO THE CHURCH OF GOD”
1Corinthians 10:32
Anyone who persecutes the Catholic Church has made himself/herself a stumbling block to the Church of GOD. It is a clear violation of Holy Scripture.

“For I am the least of the Apostles, and I AM NOT WORTHY TO BE CALLED AN APOSTLE, BECAUSE I PERSECUTED THE CHURCH OF GOD.” 1Corinthians 15:9

“Do not be surprised, brethren, IF THE WORLD HATES YOU.” 1John 3:13

“IF THE WORLD HATES YOU, KNOW THAT IT HATED ME BEFORE YOU.
IF YOU WERE OF THE WORLD, THE WORLD WOULD LOVE ITS OWN. BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, THEREFORE THE WORLD HATES YOU.
REMEMBER THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU: NO SERVANT IS GREATER THAN HIS MASTER. IF THEY HAVE PERSECUTED ME, THEY WILL PERSECUTE YOU ALSO; IF THEY HAVE KEPT MY WORD, THEY WILL KEEP YOURS ALSO.
BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS THEY WILL DO TO YOU FOR MY NAME’S SAKE, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT KNOW HIM WHO SENT ME.
IF I HAD NOT COME AND SPOKEN TO THEM, THEY WOULD HAVE NO SIN. BUT NOW THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR THEIR SIN. HE WHO HATES ME HATES MY FATHER ALSO. IF I HAD NOT DONE AMONG THEM WORKS SUCH AS NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE, THEY WOULD HAVE NO SIN. BUT NOW THEY HAVE SEEN, AND HAVE HATED BOTH ME AND MY FATHER;
BUT THAT THE WORD WRITTEN IN THEIR LAW MAY BE FULFILLED, ‘THEY HAVE HATED ME WITHOUT CAUSE’, (Psalms 35:19)”.
John 15:18-25
I would say that Jesus Christ said it all in these verses written with the inspired pen of Saint John wouldn’t you?

Name another Church which is attacked so much on a daily basis as is the Catholic Church?
Jesus Christ warned us, “You will be HATED BY ALL NATIONS for My Name’s sake.”
Matthew 24:9

“Blessed are you when men reproach you, and persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you, for My sake. REJOICE AND EXULT, BECAUSE YOUR REWARD IS GREAT IN HEAVEN; for so did they persecute the prophets who were before you.” Matthew 5:11-12