Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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bpbasilphx said:
\Deacon Population
Code: 
* 1965: 0
* 2009: 16,380
\

While there were no permanent deacons in the Latin Church in 1965, I find it hard to believe there were NO deacons at that time, as all who were ordained priests in 1965 (and still are to this day) have to spend SOME time as a deacon, even if it’s just 24 hours.
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The number has to be wrong. The Dominicans (and other friary orders) have always had “non-transitional” deacons. IIRC, that is about the time Rev Fr. Anthony Patalano, OP, was ordained a deacon.

Then again, in all fairness, the Russian Orthodox of the Aluetians and North America (ca 1900 ±20 years) also frequently ordained men priests within a week of having ordained them deacons.
 
mardukm said:
…
The distinctive Latin concepts generally include the notions of (1) fire (literal or metaphysical); (2) assignment of temporal quantities of time (i.e., number of years that an indulgence can remit purification in Purgatory; (3) some physical pain as a necessary element of purification. …
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The indulgences are available to any Catholic, in good standing, in one of the 23 Churches. (The number of years is no longer used, rather it is just called a partial indulgence.)

The power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (see Matthew 16:19, 18:18, John 20:23). Eastern Catholics as well as Latin can receive or by sufferage acquire indulgences for those that have fallen asleep in Christ, and that are in need of purification, from the Treasury of Merit. An indulgence is the remission of temporal punishment for sins, whose guilt has been forgiven.

The Manual of Indulgences (USCCB 2006) is a translation of then Apostolic Constitution Indulgentiarum doctrina (there have been four versions 1967, 1968, 1986, 1999) and some additional letters, and lists plenary and partial indulgence available. Available to all Catholics, regardless of sui iuris Church. Here is a sample, and these can be plenary, under the usual conditions, plus:

a half hour of scriptural study
Akathistos Hymn or Office of the Paraclisis in church
assist at adoration of the Cross in solemn liturgical action of Good Friday
make a Easter Vigil renewal of baptisimal vows
a half hour of Eucharistic adoration
public Marian Rosary (5 decades)

The Orthodox Church does not grant indulgences.
 
sidbrown said:
The Orthodox Church is a great Church and it has a lot of wonderful and beautiful people and clergy. However, there is more than one reason why I would remain Catholic and not convert to Orthodox. For one thing, the Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory. Even when you point out to them passages in Orthodox catechisms which indicate a state after death virutally indistinguishable from Purgatory, they will refuse to admit that it is Purgatory. To me, Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense, for many reasons. For one thing, if you have venial sins, you will not go to hell for these pecadillos. Eternal fire is too great of a punishment for a venial sin. Further, if you have committed a heinous crime and then have confessed, still, you will have to pay something because not everyone who says Lord, Lord will automatically get into heaven right away.
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My Brother in Christ, I will like to comment on this from an Orthodox perspective. I am Greek Orthodox who has lived for the first 30+ years of his life living like a Catholic. Afterwards my father told me I was Greek Orthodox and for the last 17 years I am living as an Orthodox. I have lived both Catholic and Orthodox so I have a more personal perspective than most. I have developed both a Catholic and Orthodox way of life and that is why I have an understanding of both and an appreciation of both. You mentioned Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory. Now you must understand that in the Orthodox Church there is more praying for the departed than in any other Church including the Catholic Church. We put in practice what we all should do that is a daily remembrance of the departed. Now most of the prayers for the departed in the Orthodox Church is done at the Divine Liturgy which is the same as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for Catholics. However there is many prayers for the departed that can be said outside the Mass and many Orthodox continue with that devotion. It is engrained in our blood. A day can never go by without a prayer for the departed. In fact when a person dies not only there is a funeral service said for him or her but in 40 days a 40 day memorial at the nearest Sunday so at that service the whole church gathered on that Sunday can pray for their departed brother or sister. Now our Lord Jesus does not remind us of Purgatory for the simple reason we are doing and practicing His Will that is saying prayers for the departed. It was not necessary for God to developed that teaching to the Orthodox since they are doing His Will anyway by praying for the departed. And the Orthodox pray more for the departed than anybody else. Heck go to one service and you will find that out for yourself. They do by practice what we all should obtain, a continual Remembrance of the Departed. Catholics on the other hand needed to be reminded and the Church established a more concise teaching on the matter of the condition of the Soul after death and the remendy for it. Purgatory may explain why we need to pray for the Holy Souls but the teaching is useless if you are not praying. You need both the teaching of Purgatory and the more important devotion of praying for the Holy Souls. Practice makes Perfect. I hope this will help you understand both Orthodox and Catholic practice of praying for the Departed. The Orthodox didn’t need the word Purgatory or the explanation of its teaching since they put in practice daily and at their Divine Liturgy this love and mercy which Purgatory is teaching to the West. Love can cover a multitude of sins and both Churches express that well in their devotions. God Bless! ps now I am not saying that Catholics do not pray for the departed , I am sure many do. But what I am saying is percentage wise the Orthodox pray more for the departed. Alot of Catholics do but in the Orthodox Church there is a larger percentage that are praying for the departed. Many times you need to remind Catholics of their duty. Not so the Orthodox. It all has to do with Love. The more you love Jesus and the Church the more you will pray and from my experience I see that more Orthodox put into practice this devotion of praying for the departed than their Catholic brethren. Just to let you know that this Greek Orthodox prays alot for the Departed and for the Holy Souls and the devotions he prays are from the Catholic Church.
 
DavidKays said:
My Brother in Christ, I will like to comment on this from an Orthodox perspective. I am Greek Orthodox who has lived for the first 30+ years of his life living like a Catholic. Afterwards my father told me I was Greek Orthodox and for the last 17 years I am living as an Orthodox. I have lived both Catholic and Orthodox so I have a more personal perspective than most. I have developed both a Catholic and Orthodox way of life and that is why I have an understanding of both and an appreciation of both. You mentioned Orthodox do not believe in Purgatory. Now you must understand that in the Orthodox Church there is more praying for the departed than in any other Church including the Catholic Church. We put in practice what we all should do that is a daily remembrance of the departed. Now most of the prayers for the departed in the Orthodox Church is done at the Divine Liturgy which is the same as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for Catholics. However there is many prayers for the departed that can be said outside the Mass and many Orthodox continue with that devotion. It is engrained in our blood. A day can never go by without a prayer for the departed. In fact when a person dies not only there is a funeral service said for him or her but in 40 days a 40 day memorial at the nearest Sunday so at that service the whole church gathered on that Sunday can pray for their departed brother or sister. Now our Lord Jesus does not remind us of Purgatory for the simple reason we are doing and practicing His Will that is saying prayers for the departed. It was not necessary for God to developed that teaching to the Orthodox since they are doing His Will anyway by praying for the departed. And the Orthodox pray more for the departed than anybody else. Heck go to one service and you will find that out for yourself. They do by practice what we all should obtain, a continual Remembrance of the Departed. Catholics on the other hand needed to be reminded and the Church established a more concise teaching on the matter of the condition of the Soul after death and the remendy for it. Purgatory may explain why we need to pray for the Holy Souls but the teaching is useless if you are not praying. You need both the teaching of Purgatory and the more important devotion of praying for the Holy Souls. Practice makes Perfect. I hope this will help you understand both Orthodox and Catholic practice of praying for the Departed. The Orthodox didn’t need the word Purgatory or the explanation of its teaching since they put in practice daily and at their Divine Liturgy this love and mercy which Purgatory is teaching to the West. Love can cover a multitude of sins and both Churches express that well in their devotions. God Bless!
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Thanks. I have to say that you have given us a good and respectful explanation here. Although, it is still somewhat confusing to a Catholic as to why someone would reject the notion of Purgatory, if they do pray for the dead? I was not clear on whether it means you accept or reject the notion of Purgatory?
 
My explanation is that since Orthodox pray for the departed and continue to ask God to forgive their sins that God will supply the necessary grace for their condition to improve and eventually to enter into His Presence. I believe in the teaching of Purgatory and I have developed a teaching on it so as to help the Orthodox understand better the Catholic understanding of it. All you need to do is pray for the departed so as to improve their condition. This can be done better at Mass yet other devotions also can be of benefit such as The Divine Mercy devotions. the Rosary, the Jesus Prayer, acts of charity and penance, and personal prayers done at home or at Adoration. All these can be of great benefit for the Holy Souls. One teaching I have taught in my own Church on Purgatory, to help them better understand the need to pray for the departed, is this. Let us say I have a son. He takes my car out. He comes back at 1:00 in the morning not 11:00 as I have directed him to. What do most fathers do is to send them to their room and to let them stay awhile to think about it. Same with God. You can’t get away with it. He sends you to a room. That is Purgatory. And you are going to think about it especially the many instances you thought you had gotten away with. The scripture that explains best to me is the one where Jesus in a parable says " you will not get out until you pay the last penny…" Now Jesus is not referring to Hell because you can’t get out of there so He must be referring to another place since you can get out. However the Holy Souls cannot get out until someone pays their debt. That someone is us. We on earth and members of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can help to pay those debts the Holy Souls are owing. Now the debt owing is not impossible because the punishment due to their sins while living on earth is a temporal punishment and therefore can be relieved when we pray for them. It is like the father sending his son to his room as to think about it. It is a tempoary punishment done out of love. Same with God. Done out of love. I cannot figure people out when they say you will go directly to heaven. The protestants say that. My goodness if they are right we should canonize them all but come on you will have to be perfect to enter into the Presence of God and Purgatory just makes sense. And if you do enter Purgatory you are guaranteed heaven. It may take awhile. Then we will canonize you. I hope this helps you understand the need for both Churches to integrate their teachings and to encourage more prayers for the departed. Some day I hope our protestant brethren will get the message too. They do make great Catholics when they become Catholic and do a better job than most cradle Catholics, I mean the ones who make the decision to be Catholic. God Bless!
 
I saw the discussion and remarks about praying for others in the Catholic Church. Actually I am not convinced that the Orthodox pray more for others than Catholics, but that the form is different. I assist at a Byzantine Catholic church and we use the Liturgies of Saint John Chrysotsom and Saint Basil, which are slightly different than those by the same name in the Orthodox versions, and the litanies are there. Also, when I assist at a Latin Church Mass, there are litanies after the profession of faith (creed), and people regularly add their own on weekday masses. For example:

General Intercessions for the Feast of the Epiphany, Cycle C

Celebrant: The Lord has made himself known to us and to all nations. This gives us confidence to bring him our needs.

Deacon/Lector:
That the efforts of the Church to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth may be blessed with success, we pray to the Lord… Response: Lord hear our prayer.

That Christian Churches may grow in unity, so that the world may believe in Christ, we pray to the Lord… Response: Lord hear our prayer.

That relations between Christian and Jewish people may be marked by respect and collaboration in efforts for peace and justice, we pray to the Lord… Response: Lord have mercy.

That our Faith may lead us to the presence of Christ in the sick, the poor, the oppressed, and the unborn, we pray to the Lord… Response: Lord hear our prayer.

That all who have died may share in the glory of everlasting life, we pray to the Lord… Response: Lord hear our prayer.

Celebrant:
Father, We rejoice today as we come to your Son with our gifts of prayer and praise. Bless us with your protection And fulfill the needs we have expressed. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.
When faithful assemble for The Rosary, they begin by asking for intercession for various causes and people.
 
Hi Vico! I saw your comment and I think you misunderstand some points so I will try my best if this helps. When I mentioned that Orthodox pray as whole more for the departed I am not referring to the Church service itself but to individual people. Please understand that a person’s presence at Mass or the Divine Liturgy does not make those prayers any better. What makes the prayer an uplifting sacrifice to God is your own personal prayer and the heart and love you put into it. Not everyone receives the same benefit back. It depends on your own condition before God and to your relationship with your fellow human beings that is your neighbour. Your presence does not make the prayer it is your own prayer and the love you have for God and His Church and for your fellow human beings that makes that prayer at Mass and at the Liturgy pleasing to God. Many people go to church and unfortunatedly there is no Grace because their heart is not in it. It will be better had they not come since they receive nothing and are giving nothing. My experience in both Churches, now I am talking about the West, the countries of the West like Canada, U.S.A., Europe and so on, the people going to church do not regularly put their heart into it. I am sure you do as do many others but let us face facts. The disintegration of the West has to be blamed on the way most people are worshipping today especially when they come to church. Since Catholics are here longer in the West than the Orthodox then it takes to reason there are mostly responsible for the mess we are in. The Orthodox are newcomers here to the West so that is why I suggested they pray more, that is all. Give us time and I am sure we will end up like the others and participate less, not by going to Church, but yes we will go to Church but our hearts will not be in it. Alot of people go to Church but they do not put their hearts into it. Look up Father John Corapi an excellent Catholic priest who has a webite under his own name who incidently was ordained by His Holiness John Paul II and he can explain more better. God Bless!
 
Sidbrown, I forgot to mentioned that since the strain relationship between East and West is now beginning to heal, the last 1000 years did not produce any productive communication. There were hardly any dialogue. Oh yes mayby from certain bishops and priests but the 2 churches hardly talked at all. Only in the last 100 years had seen any real serious discussions. So any Catholic doctrines that have been more refinely esablished like Purgatory or even the Immaculate Conception were not shared and so the Orthodox hardly knew of these doctrines as the Catholics did. Oh they knew abit about them however the Orthodox had not the teachings of the Catholic Saints to help them better understand. Catholic Saints writings were not available to the Orthodox as they are today and I am sure their writings would have helped alot to understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception. The only writings the Orthodox had were their own saints. So they missed out on alot. You had the writings of the many Catholic Saints which gave you a better understanding. The Orthodox since 1000 years ago did not have that convenience. Saints can explain better than us. That is why they are Saints. Now their writings can be available. Give us time, and I am sure the Orthodox will adapt towards their Catholic brothers and sisters. Remember it is new to them. Give them time. Everyone has the ability to read now. I hope this explains in a very small way your question concerning why the Orthodox are slow in accepting now remember Catholic Doctrines. God Bless!
 
DavidKays said:
Sidbrown, I forgot to mentioned that since the strain relationship between East and West is now beginning to heal, the last 1000 years did not produce any productive communication. There were hardly any dialogue. Oh yes mayby from certain bishops and priests but the 2 churches hardly talked at all. Only in the last 100 years had seen any real serious discussions. So any Catholic doctrines that have been more refinely esablished like Purgatory or even the Immaculate Conception were not shared and so the Orthodox hardly knew of these doctrines as the Catholics did. Oh they knew abit about them however the Orthodox had not the teachings of the Catholic Saints to help them better understand. Catholic Saints writings were not available to the Orthodox as they are today and I am sure their writings would have helped alot to understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception. The only writings the Orthodox had were their own saints. So they missed out on alot. You had the writings of the many Catholic Saints which gave you a better understanding. The Orthodox since 1000 years ago did not have that convenience. Saints can explain better than us. That is why they are Saints. Now their writings can be available. Give us time, and I am sure the Orthodox will adapt towards thier Catholic brothers and sisters. Remember it is new to them. Give them time. Everyone has the ability to read now. I hope this explains in a very small way your question concerning why the Orthodox is slow in accepting now remember Catholic Doctrines. God Bless!
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Let’s hope that you are right on this and let us work together for much needed reconciliation.
 
DavidKays said:
Hi Vico! I saw your comment and I think you misunderstand some points so I will try my best if this helps. When I mentioned that Orthodox pray as whole more for the departed I am not referring to the Church service itself but to individual people. … My experience in both Churches, now I am talking about the West, the countries of the West like Canada, U.S.A., Europe and so on, the people going to church do not regularly put their heart into it. …
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Thank you for explaining, I understand what you mean now. I have seen some lack of enthusiasm at various times also. It seems that some have a difficult time following and do not know the hymns. (I am an English speaker, and have a difficult time if it is in Spanish, but fine in English.) I do not know what their private feeling of devotion is. I have been fortunate to assist in a Byzantine Catholic church mostly, and during weekdays at Roman Church Mass. But on weekdays at Roman Church Mass, the group is smaller and very devotional. I have assisted mostly, in the USA, in California and also in Georgia, but not in the largest cities.
 
sidbrown said:
Let’s hope that you are right on this and let us work together for much needed reconciliation.
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I would’t get too amped up over anything this guy says. If he is Orthodox he is a bit confused.
 
DavidKays said:
My explanation is that since Orthodox pray for the departed and continue to ask God to forgive their sins that God will supply the necessary grace for their condition to improve and eventually to enter into His Presence. I believe in the teaching of Purgatory and I have developed a teaching on it so as to help the Orthodox understand better the Catholic understanding of it. All you need to do is pray for the departed so as to improve their condition. This can be done better at Mass yet other devotions also can be of benefit such as The Divine Mercy devotions. the Rosary, the Jesus Prayer, acts of charity and penance, and personal prayers done at home or at Adoration. All these can be of great benefit for the Holy Souls. One teaching I have taught in my own Church on Purgatory, to help them better understand the need to pray for the departed, is this. Let us say I have a son. He takes my car out. He comes back at 1:00 in the morning not 11:00 as I have directed him to. What do most fathers do is to send them to their room and to let them stay awhile to think about it. Same with God. You can’t get away with it. He sends you to a room. That is Purgatory. And you are going to think about it especially the many instances you thought you had gotten away with. The scripture that explains best to me is the one where Jesus in a parable says " you will not get out until you pay the last penny…" Now Jesus is not referring to Hell because you can’t get out of there so He must be referring to another place since you can get out. However the Holy Souls cannot get out until someone pays their debt. That someone is us. We on earth and members of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can help to pay those debts the Holy Souls are owing. Now the debt owing is not impossible because the punishment due to their sins while living on earth is a temporal punishment and therefore can be relieved when we pray for them. It is like the father sending his son to his room as to think about it. It is a tempoary punishment done out of love. Same with God. Done out of love. I cannot figure people out when they say you will go directly to heaven. The protestants say that. My goodness if they are right we should canonize them all but come on you will have to be perfect to enter into the Presence of God and Purgatory just makes sense. And if you do enter Purgatory you are guaranteed heaven. It may take awhile. Then we will canonize you. I hope this helps you understand the need for both Churches to integrate their teachings and to encourage more prayers for the departed. Some day I hope our protestant brethren will get the message too. They do make great Catholics when they become Catholic and do a better job than most cradle Catholics, I mean the ones who make the decision to be Catholic. God Bless!
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Yeaaaaaah… no. :rolleyes:
 
bpbasilphx said:
\Deacon Population
Code: 
* 1965: 0
* 2009: 16,380
\

While there were no permanent deacons in the Latin Church in 1965, I find it hard to believe there were NO deacons at that time, as all who were ordained priests in 1965 (and still are to this day) have to spend SOME time as a deacon, even if it’s just 24 hours.
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I realize that too.

The source stated *permanent *deacons, but I did not transfer that over. I should have been clearer.

In my limited time I am getting sloppy these days
 
Orthodoxy doesn’t teach “purgatory”. There is no “temporal punishment” to be paid in the next life after a sin is forgiven. There is no “treasury of merit” or excess merit earned by the saints to be applied in the form of indulgences. The dead experience a foretaste either of heaven or of hell according to the state in which they find themself at death. At the resurrection our souls will be reunited to our bodies and our state will be fixed. Until then prayers for the dead are beneficial to their souls and a positive change in state is possible.
 
I don’t understand the concept of being Orthodox and being allowed to recieve in the Catholic Church. How can the Catholic Church allow someone who is not Catholic and does not profess communion with Rome to recieve the Eucharist? How can you have Eucharistic communion when you don’t have physical communion? It makes no sense.
 
jimmy said:
I don’t understand the concept of being Orthodox and being allowed to recieve in the Catholic Church. How can the Catholic Church allow someone who is not Catholic and does not profess communion with Rome to recieve the Eucharist? How can you have Eucharistic communion when you don’t have physical communion? It makes no sense.
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From the Code of Canon Law, see the underlined portion.
Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.

§2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

§3 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the eastern Churches not in full communion with the catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches so far as the sacraments are concerned.

§4 If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgement of the diocesan Bishop or of the Episcopal Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other christians not in full communion with the catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who spontaneously ask for them, provided that they demonstrate the catholic faith in respect of these sacraments and are properly disposed.

§5 In respect of the cases dealt with in §§2, 3 and 4, the diocesan Bishop or the Episcopal Conference is not to issue general norms except after consultation with the competent authority, at least at the local level, of the non-catholic Church or community concerned.

This covers the Orthodox and the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC). Most missalites that you find in the pews has this on either the back of the front cover or the front of the back cover stating who may receive the Eucharist.
 
\
Then again, in all fairness, the Russian Orthodox of the Aluetians and North America (ca 1900 ±20 years) also frequently ordained men priests within a week of having ordained them deacons.\

**Oh, it’s not just Alaska (which is part of the OCA) that has done so.

It’s happened in ALL jurisdictions.

I’ve been to a few “deacon for a day” ordinations myself when the needs of the Church required a man be ordained reader, subdeacon, and deacon on one day and priest the next.**
 
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