Why Catholics adore Mary

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Reply for scottywolf777:

Mary the new Eve? Never heard that one before. An interesting theory.

I watched the video and have the following comments:

1.) Dr Scott Hahn is saying that Jesus is God. I can’t find anything to support that theory in the Bible…

Deuteronomy 18 (New Living Translation) says:

16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the Lord your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai. You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the Lord our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’17 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him. 19 I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf.

Note that it says God sent somebody (Jesus) on His behalf. He didn’t say he’d change into human form because He’s less scary that way.

It’s not about being less scary, it’s about bridging the eternal gap between God and man.

There are numerous Gospel passages where Jesus claims to be God. I can’t recall the exact references off of the top of my head, though (other than the beginning of the Gospel of John: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”).

2.) In John 19 I can’t see any reason to think Jesus was giving His mother to everybody. It seems to me He was just pairing her up with His disciple so they could look after each other after He was gone.

The Gospel writers were not in the habit of recording things that didn’t matter to their overall message. John was not interested in living arrangements for Jewish widows, and neither was his audience. If it didn’t matter, and if the “beloved disciple” is not also representative of all believers in this passage, then John would not have included it.

3.) If Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of God, then God created His own mother?

Being the mother of Jesus, who we believe to be both God and man, does not mean taht she is also the mother of the entire Trinity. Being Mother of God does not mean Mary preceded God in any way

It’s all sounding very silly when you start to think like that.

That’s because you’re deliberately thinking about it in such a way that makes it sound ridiculous

4.) Mary is not a perpetual virgin. Many verses speak of her other children e.g. Mark 6:3.

Anything further than a cursory reading of these passages would tell us that these are children not of Mary, but of one of Mary’s relatives or another close relative of Jesus.

Mark 6 identifies the “brothers of Jesus” as James, Joses (or Joseph, based on the manuscript), Judas and Simon. Matthew 27:56 identifies a certain Mary as the mother of James and Joses- yet does not call her the mother of Jesus. Then, in 61, she is called “the other Mary”.

Furhtermore, at the foot of the Cross, Jesus gives responsibility for His mother to John- the son of Zebedee. In that culture at that time (and to an extent, even at this time), it would have been un-heard of to pass on responsiility to care for one’s parents to an outsider when theere were other children who could take care of them. If Mary had other children, they would have been assigned to take care of her- John, son of Zebedee, would not have been involved.

5.) Where in the Bible does it say Mary “gave permission” for the death of Jesus? We’re not told that.

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done unto me according to your word”

After accepting her role as mother of Jesus, Mary stuck with it, even to the cross. We see quite clearly that, time and again, Mary renewed her commitment to Christ despite warnings, such as Simeon’s prophecy that a sword would pierce her own heart. She certainly could have run away from Jesus to try to avoid the pain of seeing her own son killed, but she didn’t.

6.) He says Christ leads us to Mary. Where did that idea come from?

“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my savior”

7.) Jesus gave us the power to love Mary as much as He did? Where did that idea come from?

Technically, we all end up with that power- in Heaven.

Yes but that was God’s design.

Again that was something God called for. No instructions about making statues of Mary.

The Temple was also full of images. WEre all of these also specifically prescribed by God?

Interesting…

Do they still exist? Can they be found online anywhere?

The 7 books are usually called the deuterocanonicals (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books). Yes, they can be found online.

 

[Monica4316]

I’m looking for a few brief reasons on why Mary is so adored in Catholicism.

well we don’t ‘adore’ Mary. We honour, love, and respect her. Adoration can only be given for God alone. In other words, we love Mary for Jesus’ sake, and because she is His Mother, we love Jesus for His own sake.

One reason I have come up with is that we Catholics on earth aren’t holy enough to truly worship Christ as we should, so we need a “middle man”, which is Mary. However then that leaves the question of why Christ Himself came to earth…

Any help would be appreciated.

Jesus came to earth to bring human nature to God, by the Incarnation, and to give us salvation and forgiveness, by the Cross. He is the mediator between the Father and mankind.

We need a lot of help and a lot of grace to be able to live the Christian life. What God does is perfect. But our own efforts, our own prayers, etc, are lacking. Mary can help us here by leading us closer to her Son… she can help us be better followers of Him. She can teach us how.

So Mary leads us more surely to Jesus than we can come to Him alone.

Mary leads us to Jesus, and Jesus gives us salvation and leads us to the Father.

hope that makes sense…

have you ever read True Devotion by St Louis de Montfort? He explains this well

God bless.

 

[Monica4316]

One of the greatest means of salvation and one of the surest signs of predestination, is unquestionably, the devotion to the Most Blessed Virgin. All the holy doctors of the Church are unanimous in saying with St. Alphonsus of Liguori: “A devout servant of Mary shall never perish.” The chief thing is to persevere faithfully till death in this devotion.
For the past month this former fundamentalist christian has made an effort to recite the rosary at least once every day. The results have been amazing. I encourage all christians to recite the rosary.

wow, awesome

Hi Alex,
You’re right to question why “we need a “middle man”, which is Mary. However then that leaves the question of why Christ Himself came to earth…”.

The best place to find the answer is not the church or the walls of the catacombs etc. it’s by looking in the Bible. The answer is that we *don’t *need Mary as a middle man.

1 Timothy 2:5 tells us:
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

this shows such a misunderstanding

Jesus is the Mediator between us and the Father. But Mary’s mediation is different… it is not between “God and man” it is NOT to reconcile God and humanity… it is simply to bring us closer to Jesus so that HE can reconcile us.

And yes this is shown by Scripture, Mary leads us to Jesus, she says “do what He tells you”. She is the Ark of the New Covenant (Rev. 11-12) and the new Eve… she is the Mother of God (since Christ is God). So she does have an important role in the Church and in our lives. God didn’t HAVE to use her, but He chose to, and she freely consented.

and Catholics don’t believe in sola scriptura. That’s a new concept. It was not present for 1500 years of Christianity. Christians have always interpreted the Bible using the Church teaching, and Tradition. It says in the Bible, that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”. so yes the Church teaching is actually important, and it’s not “Bible alone”.

Jesus honoured His mother, or course, it’s one of the 10 commandments. But as to having paintings and statues of her? No, that’s certainly not biblical.

why is it wrong to have pictures of your mother, family, friends, but not Jesus’ Mother?

there were times in the Old Testament where God TOLD the Israelites to make images, and statues, like of the angels…

 

[Soutane]

I’m looking for a few brief reasons on why Mary is so adored in Catholicism.

One reason I have come up with is that we Catholics on earth aren’t holy enough to truly worship Christ as we should, so we need a “middle man”, which is Mary. However then that leaves the question of why Christ Himself came to earth…

Any help would be appreciated.

What nonsense.If you truly are a properly catechechised Catholic you would never say such a thing.You a either an anti-Catholic in mufti or you are simply trying to stir up a hornets nest.

 

[wanner47]

Pope Benedict XVI gives a marvelous explanation in his encyclical Spe Salvi:

Human life is a journey. Towards what destination? How do we find the way? Life is like a voyage on the sea of history, often dark and stormy, a voyage in which we watch for the stars that indicate the route. The true stars of our life are the people who have lived good lives. They are lights of hope. Certainly, Jesus Christ is the true light, the sun that has risen above all the shadows of history. But to reach him we also need lights close by—people who shine with his light and so guide us along our way. Who more than Mary could be a star of hope for us? With her “yes” she opened the door of our world to God himself; she became the living Ark of the Covenant, in whom God took flesh, became one of us, and pitched his tent among us (cf. Jn 1:14).

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[Monica4316]

What nonsense.If you truly are a properly catechechised Catholic you would never say such a thing.You a either an anti-Catholic in mufti or you are simply trying to stir up a hornets nest.

hmm I don’t think so… I think it was just an honest question. There’s so much criticism of our devotion to Mary these days that it’s hard to know where to turn

Pope Benedict XVI gives a marvelous explanation in his encyclical Spe Salvi:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

it’s beautiful

 

[JustaServant]

It’s not an either/or issue. Catholics since the early centuries of the Church have venerated Mary, Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
When God touched my heart and the wall of anti-Catholicism was demolished, praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed.

 

[aball1035]

What nonsense.If you truly are a properly catechechised Catholic you would never say such a thing.You a either an anti-Catholic in mufti or you are simply trying to stir up a hornets nest.

Or I’m simply looking for answers…

 

[hosemonkey]

Catholics do not adore Mary. We highly venerate Mary. Adoration is rendered to God alone.

 

[n4mgr]

Catholics do not adore Mary. We highly venerate Mary. Adoration is rendered to God alone.

I think you may have adoration and worship confused. It is possible to adore without worshiping the person/object. The english language is limited in expressing these and other theological concepts and that is one reason we rely on the teaching authority of the Church to know what is right and how far is too far.

 

[Martin_R]

A lot of the comments on here remind me of

Gal 1:14 New Living Translation:
I was one of the most religious Jews of my own age, and I tried as hard as possible to follow all the old traditions of my religion.

It’s what the others do and they’ve been doing it for centuries so it must be ok.

 

[n4mgr]

A lot of the comments on here remind me of

Gal 1:14 New Living Translation:
I was one of the most religious Jews of my own age, and I tried as hard as possible to follow all the old traditions of my religion.

It’s what the others do and they’ve been doing it for centuries so it must be ok.

This is because you have NO direction, your only authority is yourself. You go by what feels good, not Holy. You can go find any translation rip out the books you disagree with and change the wording and then find something there to fit your own ideology. Thus YOU are your own God, this is both heretical and very very dangerous to your soul.

BTW, for those reading here is a Catholic translation of Galations 1 vs.s 11-15

11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. 14 And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased him, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

 

[Martin_R]

Reply for Tim Kirchoff part 1:

I said:
Note that it says God sent somebody (Jesus) on His behalf. He didn’t say he’d change into human form because He’s less scary that way.

You said:
It’s not about being less scary, it’s about bridging the eternal gap between God and man.

But my point was that God said He would send somebody on His behalf, not that He would come to earth Himself.

As for John 1:1, the Greek word “theos” is used twice in that verse. The first time, we’re told it means “was with God” and the second time it’s used we’re told it means “was God”. Looks like a case of the translators making it say what they want it to say.
“Theos” can mean Christ or God’s representative so you could translate it as:
In the beginning the Word, and the Word was Christ and the Word was God’s representative .

The word “theos” also means “likeness“ and is used in Eph 4:24

Eph 4:24 You must display a new nature because you are a new person, created in God’s likeness–righteous, holy, and true.

Jesus is like God and we should try and be like Jesus.

So you could also translate John 1:1 as

“In the beginning the Word, and the word was Christ and the word was like God.”
Which is what you’d expect i.e. The son is like the father.

I did see a request in a forum somewhere where an expert in Greek was asked if this verse proves Jesus is God and he said he wasn’t religious so could give an unbiased view.
He said there wasn’t enough to go on in this single sentence to answer either way.
I think we’ve gone off topic a bit here but I could start another thread titled, “Is Jesus God?”, if you’d like to discuss it further.

 

[Martin_R]

Reply for Tim Kirchoff part 2:
(I split it up as it was getting a bit long.)

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done unto me according to your word”
After accepting her role as mother of Jesus, Mary stuck with it, even to the cross. We see quite clearly that, time and again, Mary renewed her commitment to Christ despite warnings, such as Simeon’s prophecy that a sword would pierce her own heart. She certainly could have run away from Jesus to try to avoid the pain of seeing her own son killed, but she didn’t.

I said, “Where in the Bible…” Is this all from the missing books? I can’t find it in the Bible we have today.

6.) He says Christ leads us to Mary. Where did that idea come from?
“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my savior”

That’s not leading us to Mary!

The Temple was also full of images. WEre all of these also specifically prescribed by God?

God gave permission for the temple to be built and (1Ki 5:12) tells us God gave Solomon the wisdom to build it from David’s plans (1Ch 28:11). So we’re not really told if it was God’s, Solomon’s or David’s idea for the detail of the carvings. If the detail was man’s rather than God’s, I’m sure it would have been God inspired. But even so, there’s no mention of carvings of people e.g. Mary. It was built to honour the Lord, not Mary.

 

[Martin_R]

This is because you have NO direction, your only authority is yourself.

No, I go by the Bible, not the church or traditions. It’s God’s word.

2Ti 3:16 New Living Translation.
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

I asked my Catholic friend why they keep on about Mary and he directed me to this forum. I have learnt that you think Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. I can now understand that idea but it reminds me of when God’s people were placing too much importance on the Ark rather than the word inside it. They tried to use it to win battles for them and were punished for it. Whenever you meet a Catholic, they talk about Mary, have pictures and statues of Mary and as far as I know, Mary is mentioned in every church service.
It’s like receiving an important letter and then showing everybody what a wonderful envelope it came in. You seem to be missing the point of the Bible. i.e. Jesus.

praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed

Do you ever hail Jesus or hail God or don’t they matter much?

 

[JustaServant]

Martin_R:

Do you ever hail Jesus or hail God or don’t they matter much?

Well, I could give you an answer, but you appear to already know all the answers. So, why are you asking?

 

[fix]

Martin_R:

I asked my Catholic friend why they keep on about Mary and he directed me to this forum. I have learnt that you think Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. I can now understand that idea but it reminds me of when God’s people were placing too much importance on the Ark rather than the word inside it. They tried to use it to win battles for them and were punished for it. Whenever you meet a Catholic, they talk about Mary, have pictures and statues of Mary and as far as I know, Mary is mentioned in every church service.
It’s like receiving an important letter and then showing everybody what a wonderful envelope it came in. You seem to be missing the point of the Bible. i.e. Jesus.

The important position Mary has in salvation history is because that is Christ’s will. Why would you choose minimize it?

"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to “the Son of the Most High” without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that “with God nothing will be impossible”: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:140

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

 

[VociMike]

Martin_R:

Do you ever hail Jesus or hail God or don’t they matter much?

Only a person completely ignorant of the primary act of Catholic worship, the Mass, and its total focus on God (Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit) could even ask such a question.

 

[hosemonkey]

I think you may have adoration and worship confused. It is possible to adore without worshiping the person/object. The english language is limited in expressing these and other theological concepts and that is one reason we rely on the teaching authority of the Church to know what is right and how far is too far.

*1. The Second Vatican Council states that devotion to the Blessed Virgin, “as it has always existed in the Church, for all its uniqueness, differs essentially from the cult of adoration, which is offered equally to the Incarnate Word and to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favourable to it” (Lumen gentium, n. 66).
With these words the Constitution **Lumen gentium stresses the characteristics of Marian devotion. Although the veneration of the faithful for Mary is superior to their devotion to the other saints, it is nevertheless inferior to the cult of adoration reserved to God, from which it essentially differs. The term “adoration” indicates the form of worship that man offers to God, acknowledging him as Creator and Lord of the universe. Enlightened by divine Revelation, the Christian adores the Father “in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). With the Father, he adores Christ, the Incarnate Word, exclaiming with the Apostle Thomas: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn 20:28). Lastly, in this same act of adoration he includes the Holy Spirit, who “with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified” (DS 150), as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed recalls.

So, the Church given us clear teaching on the difference between veneration and worship.*

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Reply for Tim Kirchoff part 1:

I said:
Note that it says God sent somebody (Jesus) on His behalf. He didn’t say he’d change into human form because He’s less scary that way.

You said:
It’s not about being less scary, it’s about bridging the eternal gap between God and man.

But my point was that God said He would send somebody on His behalf, not that He would come to earth Himself.

As for John 1:1, the Greek word “theos” is used twice in that verse. The first time, we’re told it means “was with God” and the second time it’s used we’re told it means “was God”. Looks like a case of the translators making it say what they want it to say.
“Theos” can mean Christ or God’s representative so you could translate it as:
In the beginning the Word, and the Word was Christ and the Word was God’s representative .

The word “theos” also means “likeness“ and is used in Eph 4:24

Eph 4:24 You must display a new nature because you are a new person, created in God’s likeness–righteous, holy, and true.

Jesus is like God and we should try and be like Jesus.

So you could also translate John 1:1 as

“In the beginning the Word, and the word was Christ and the word was like God.”
Which is what you’d expect i.e. The son is like the father.

I did see a request in a forum somewhere where an expert in Greek was asked if this verse proves Jesus is God and he said he wasn’t religious so could give an unbiased view.
He said there wasn’t enough to go on in this single sentence to answer either way.
I think we’ve gone off topic a bit here but I could start another thread titled, “Is Jesus God?”, if you’d like to discuss it further.

Go for it- I think it’s a worthwhile discussion.