Why Catholics Can't Sing

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What a great thread!

I’m blessed enough to be able to attend a mass where 99% of the congregation sings reflexively. We sing the hymns; we sing the responses; we sing loudly and enthusiastically (though not always in tune :eek: ); sometimes we sing when only the choir should be singing :p.

I am not entirely sure why- no one has ever said anything about paricipating in the singing to us. The music is very traditional (old hymns & chant) and we do have an excellent choir director who I know transposes things out of those “sadistic keys” someone mentioned.

Everyone’s made such excellent comments, I don’t really have anthing to add except- LOL (in sympathy) at the list below and numbers 3 & 4 are my number one reasons for not singing when I’m not at my usual parish.

puzzleannie said:
1. somebody took all the hymnals out of my pew
2. you can’t hear the hymn number when it is announced
3. the cantors and organist are not on the same page/key/tempo and I just give up trying to harmonize between them
4. I refuse to sing heretical lyrics
5. the cantor is not following the music as written, using his own arrangement to show off his musical gifts
6. I have moved to a new parish that uses a different hymnal, different settings for Mass parts, never announces which settings are being used, never trains congregation when new piece is introduced
10. the musicians always choose hymns out of my vocal range, which is shrinking as I get older
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Nick P.:
Have you ever encountered the music director type that says: “You will open your hymnals to #465 and you will join in singing the opening hymn…”?
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That would be me, lol! But only when I was teaching at a k-8 school and the children wouldn’t sing. Drove me crazy because we would spend lots of class time learning the songs for that week’s school Mass. When I cantored during other liturgies, I was much nicer! 🙂

Jennifer
 
Annunciata, Peregrinator, et al, You should take this show on the road! What a scream! Anyway, one more thought-I go to St. Jude’s when I’m back home (no city, please), which is very orthodox, wonderful priests, but they have one of “them” cantor ladies who lost her vibrato yeeaaarrrs ago. Nails on the chalkboard quality stuff! Well, one sunny summer Sunday morning the power went out at the beginning of Mass, and the cantor lady sang without a mike (God bless her and the priest, there are some places where they’d have cancelled Mass right then and there!), and lo and behold, she has a beautiful voice, and all the people sang along on some traditional hymns, and we almost got to “melisma”, it was just shy of beautiful, my Mom commented on the improvement. And believe me, the dear lady has a built-in wawa pedal which is stuck in the on position!

So there’s a real life example of the difference. The natural, unmiked voice can then gain the benefits of acoustics, which rounds and smooths the rough edges of the voice. Good acoustics, help me here, somehow enriches the sound of the voice, whereas the mike emphasizes the rough parts of the voice, and plays it over against the congregation, never the twain shall meet. So, sharpen your wire cutters… God bless.
 
I think that typical American Catholic congregations don’t sing as a form of passive protest! The hymns offered are difficult to sing and are so banal that most people wouldn’t want to sing them anyway. I’m speaking of Oregon Catholic Press’s Music Issue and that old horror Glory and Prais*e). *Some of it I believe verges on heretical. There’s a line from the chorus of *How Can I Keep From Singing *that goes *“Since Love is Lord of Heaven and earth, how can I keep from singing?” *Christ is Lord of Heaven and Earth, not Love. I was taught that while God is Love, Love ain’t neccessarily God!!! To me, this smacks of the inroads made by scyncretism and modern psychology into spaces designed only for theology. Christ is God, God from God, Light from Light, true God of True God, He’s not Barney the Big Purple Dinosaur ("I love you, you love me, we’re a happy family!). I’m not one of these people who long for the Tridentine Mass (I’m a convert and I’ve never been to one), though given the state of worship in some parishes, I certainly can sympathize with their distress. I remember the hymns of my youth in the Baptist church (“On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” and “There is a Fountain” and “Just As I Am,” which was used by the Anligcan/Episcopal Church as a Communion hymn) that had so much of both worship and teaching and I just grieve that Holy Mother Church is, Sunday by Sunday, subjected to absolute drek written by Dan Schutte, Marty Haugen and David Haas. The Music Issue does contain a lot of good ones (All People That On Earth Do Dwell, Panis Angelicus, The Church’s One Foundation, Christ is Made the Sure Foundation, All Creatures of Our God and King, Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise, O Salutaris Hostia, and How Firm a Foundation), but these seem never to get picked. Lest you think I’m a dinosaur, I think John Michael Talbot’s *Holy is His Name *is very beautiful, esp. if sung in harmony. IMHO, the problem with liturgy, music, and worship today, aside from Masses where priests and laity try to assert their egos and put their “stamp” on the Holy Sacrifice, is the efforts of some in Holy Mother Church to be relevant. She doesn’t have to worry about that: the Holy One, by the Word of His Own Mouth, said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against Her, His Bride. She doesn’t have to be relevant because She is TIMELESS! Whoops, sorry to have gone on a rant! This has been simmering just beneath the surface of this choir member’s calm exterior.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon8.gif God Bless all!
 
I agree with Thann (and she seems to have the same husband as I!)
I have found harmonies for some of the old standbys but between my husband’s off-key droning and my alternative melodies, we probably drive our pew neighbors crazy.

Putting aside the banality of the material, the keys are just too high. Usually just handful of people can handle them. I would like to hear more sacramental music. I played in bands all my life so I’ve had enough of pop music. And I wish Amazing Grace would go away. It’s a good song but it just doesn’t seem Catholic to me.
 
Some of it I believe verges on heretical
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Verges??? That is being really charitable. When I brought the lyrics of one OCP song to the attention of my pastor, he agreed that the words were heresy (denied the Real Presence) but he won’t make the Music Dirctor delete it from her favorite song list because he says “no one pays attention to the songs anyway”. :eek:
 
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kmktexas:
Verges??? That is being really charitable. When I brought the lyrics of one OCP song to the attention of my pastor, he agreed that the words were heresy (denied the Real Presence) but he won’t make the Music Dirctor delete it from her favorite song list because he says “no one pays attention to the songs anyway”. :eek:
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This may be true…on the surface…However, it is my experience that people are deeply influenced by the music they are exposed to and/or sing. The words kind of get into your head/heart…even when you aren’t paying much attention.

Having said that, I have to admit that I do sing and like some church music that is definitely not Catholic, and has a message that may be questionable…Habit, I guess.
 
Shouldn’t the wholeheartedly embrace what the heirarchy (via the priest) does in the way of music, especially if the bishop does not interfere?
 
T. More:
Shouldn’t the wholeheartedly embrace what the heirarchy (via the priest) does in the way of music, especially if the bishop does not interfere?
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Why?
 
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CD4:
This may be true…on the surface…However, it is my experience that people are deeply influenced by the music they are exposed to and/or sing. The words kind of get into your head/heart…even when you aren’t paying much attention.

Having said that, I have to admit that I do sing and like some church music that is definitely not Catholic, and has a message that may be questionable…Habit, I guess.
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Interesting. If I recall my early Church history correctly, the Arians were a bunch of very gifted song-writers. Their tunes were quite catchy, for the times. Unfortunately, they were also quite heretical. “There was a time when He was not…” was by many accounts one of those tunes you just couldn’t get out of your head.

I often think of this when I am subjected to patently heretical hymns at Mass, set to otherwise catchy tunes. I think that this is an intentional ploy of the Enemy. By popularizing heresy through music, it makes it that much tougher for the Truth to break through in the actual words of the liturgy.

I have often wondered why songs sung at Mass and hymnals do not have to have an imprimatur. I mean, a celebrant couldn’t get by with inserting an unauthorized heretical prayer in the Liturgy. But if he were to set it to music - well, that’s different. Why???
 
Sea Knight: Didn’t the heretical use of manmade hymns lead the Western church to sing only psalms for a long period of time?
 
O’ boy, one thing you folks will learn is NEVER to ,“ASK FOR IT,” unless you/one want to see action… Catholics can SING, and just about anything else other folks can do, they can incorporate, or already have incorporated it out…

But if you around long enough you/one will see everything… Including singing in Latin again for CHRISTMAS…

In fact, if one/you are long enough, the only thing you/one will PRAY for, is to know what to PRAY for , the WISDOM to pray well, for God’s will, for all else is SELFISH VANITY, silly things, and redundant accumulations of things and creature comforts… Which on God SCALE of measuring, means absolutely NOTHING, and VANISHES with OUR human existance… For God gives so that we me give… For what WE GIVE WELL and PRUDENTLY, God will see we administer much of,

Be careful in USE-ing HEAVENLY MEASURING STANDARDS, for: (RICH always has a point of reference, EARTHLY is finite, and HEAVENLY IS INFINITE)… To be INFINITE in LOVE is V ERY, V ERY RICH…

MT 13:12 To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

MT 25:29 For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

MK 4:25 To the one who has, more will be given; from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

LK 8:18 Take care, then, how you hear. To anyone who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he seems to have will be taken away."

LK 19:26 'I tell you, to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

I guess WE COULD SING all the days of OUR life, or just during JOYUS and GLORIOUS times, exuberently, ask for it…
 
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aspawloski4th:
I go to Mass to worship primarily to worship God and secondarily to get guidance from the reading and the homily. on the subject of singing, everyoneone who knows me well will tell you I couldnt carry a tune in a bushel basket so I leave it to professionals. singing is just rah rah, its not substance. howabout leaving out the music and getting back to worship!
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I am quite sure that King David, and God, who inspired his songs would greatly disagree with you. As would most who see the song-verse of many ancient christian hymns written in scripture (especially the epsistles). Singing IS worship. As has been mentioned several times, he who sings [well] prays twice. We are commanded by scripture, tradition and the magisterium of the chruch to sing our worship to God. Singing is NOT rah rah.
 
Was enjoying all the insights in each post and heard Fr. Fessio speak about the difference between “just singing **at **mass” and “Singing THE mass”. He was referring to singing/praying the psalms and the parts of the mass which is different than just singing the opening,offertory, recessional…

Interesting history: the good priest researched the origins of Jewish/Hebrew music and chant and found that our Gregorian chant originated from the Jewish chant…and Jesus probably sang the psalms with Mary and Joseph! in similar tones to our Gregorian chant, which

is pretty easy to learn, if a portion of time is given, not much time, just a minute or two, to teaching, is given.

UNLIKE so many Church “songs” today.

What IS the difference between church “songs” and “hymns” anyways? Is it more politically correct to say Songs??

BTW< our Catholic Irish and German relatives both sing and the Irish ones more so!! organists in the family run pretty deep. LOL

God is good. Keep on living our faith in His holy Church. Bless you all.

D in AZ
 
Am I mistaken to think that electronic instruments in Mass are banned? Such as synthesizers, electric guitars and drum machines?

Our parish is in transition for a few years, having Masses in a junior high gym, and we have a brand spankin’ new “band” complete with saxophone solos and back-up singers, as well as the synthesizer. Perhaps there’s a dispensation because we are not meeting in a church?

Honestly, I’d prefer to sing everything a capella or even with guitar (or banjo or mandolin or balalaika or even bongos!) rather than listen to the deafening tones of the synthesizer.
Not that it will make any difference whatsoever to my pastor or the new music director, but…am I wrong?

LeeAnn
 
The Hidden Life:
Am I mistaken to think that electronic instruments in Mass are banned? Such as synthesizers, electric guitars and drum machines?
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LeeAnn,

Here are two relevent documents:

First, from VII - Sacrosanctum Concilium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
  1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
    But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
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And from the current GIRM. nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.htm
  1. Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy,152 all musical settings of the texts for the people’s responses and acclamations in the Order of Mass and for special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for review and approval prior to publication.
    While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be used in liturgical services in the dioceses of the United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, provided they are truly apt for sacred use or can be rendered apt.
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I believe that musicianship and song selection are more important factors in determining whether a particular song is suitable for liturgy or not. Proficient musicians who project a sense of reverence and prayer can use instruments that would come across as inappropriate in the hands of a less skilled, less prayerful group.

LarryM
 
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LarryM:
LeeAnn,

Here are two relevent documents:

First, from VII - Sacrosanctum Concilium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

And from the current GIRM. nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.htm

I believe that musicianship and song selection are more important factors in determining whether a particular song is suitable for liturgy or not. Proficient musicians who project a sense of reverence and prayer can use instruments that would come across as inappropriate in the hands of a less skilled, less prayerful group.

LarryM
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I agree with you…I personally believe that congregational singing is most easily accomplished with instruments that support the singing…piano, guitar (done well), flute…I do find that it is hard to sing with an organ accompaniment…The organist too often plays too loudly, and it is sometimes (often) hard to pick out the harmonies. The idea is to accompany the singing…not outshine it, or to drown it out …

People will sing if they know the music, and if it is relatively easy to sing. They like music that lends itself to pleasing harmonies, and that you can go away humming…

**My family was once Lutheran, so I have some experience with the music in that church, as well as the wonderful old hymns of the Methodist and Baptists churches. The Lutheran hymns seemed to me to be very hard to sing, and one could almost never go away remembering much of what was sung…let alone humming it. **

**I like nearly all kinds of church music…It all has a place somewhere! The wonderful thing about music is that there is something for nearly everyone…We all have our preferences, and should refrain from condemning one another’s choices as being “bad” . **

**Scripture tells us to make a joyful noise to the Lord, and that is what we should do…In whatever way we feel called to do so. **
 
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aspawloski4th:
I go to Mass to worship primarily to worship God and secondarily to get guidance from the reading and the homily. on the subject of singing, everyoneone who knows me well will tell you I couldnt carry a tune in a bushel basket so I leave it to professionals. singing is just rah rah, its not substance. howabout leaving out the music and getting back to worship!
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**Although I understand where you are coming from, I have to disagree with you. Singing is NOT just a rah, rah, sort of thing…It is an intergral part of worship. It is part of the liturgy, and can be add to our understanding of what we are doing, as well as what we are about. **
**While I appreciate and love congregational singing (I was raised in a muscial Methodist family), I especially love “singing the Mass”. **
**Scripture makes it quite clear that it is a wonderful thing to make music as we worship…While Masses that have no music can be really nice…and there are times when such a Mass may be just the thing one needs…I believe that when we sing, or have instrumental music, we have greatly added to the worship experience. **
There are times when it is the music that touches ones soul, and predisposes us to the reverent reception of Holy Communion…
I have to admit that I do enjoy the congregational singing at my husband’s evangelical church…They do a lot of Praise and Worship music, but also sing some of the lovely old hymns I grew up with… I also have to admit that those old hymns usually bring a tear or two to my eyes! Precious memories, how they linger…
 
If any of you ever go to North Myrtle Beach SC, try to take in Mass at Our Lady Star of the Sea.

Absotively, positutly, the most awesome, totally unbelievable choir and harmonies ever.
 
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