Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[Iron_Donkey]

I’ve read both of those before. But it doesn’t really answer the idea -

1. The objectification of gay men (like the objectification of women) shows that as a whole, we still need help seeing gay men as individuals and fully human. It doesn’t say anything about their capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.
2. The debate is rigged post - yes it is. I agree that it is simply not the case that disagreeing = hate or homophobia. I have said elsewhere that no one is homophobic; show me a person that says, “Look! A homosexual! Run for your lives!” and I will eat my words. Which again has no bearing on a homosexual couple’s capacity to love one another. Which is relevant since, again, God is Love personified. And I see loving homosexual couples every day.

Why do you think the fact that God is Love means that all things which involve love are ok? Men love each other all the time - father and son, even until recently two good friends would say they loved each other (and now, amusing enough, that’s not done so much to avoid appearing gay). “The disciple who Jesus loved”. Etc.

And here’s your abstraction, though it’s only “abstract,” whatever that actually means, if you haven’t paid attention to how things go wrong: evil is always a perversion of good. To make an evil thing, you take a good thing and remove or twist some essential good part of it. Homosexual relationships are not necessarily completely lacking in love, but that love has been twisted and used as an excuse to do immoral things.

No, the fact that God is Love does not help your argument any more than the fact that God is Justice would help a vigilante murderer.

P.S. I’m still expecting the obligatory "Well, clearly it’s not really love because of X, Y, and Z academic abstraction" post to come along at some point from someone.

I don’t understand. Are you saying that because something doesn’t pull on the heartstrings that it’s false? Or perhaps, if it’s contrary to what some (let alone all) emotionally fulled people feel to be true then it must be false?

That’s not how the world works. There’s no such thing as physical contact, only electric fields. Time slows down as you move fast, and objects get shorter as they speed up relative to you. You can accelerate all you like, and despite the fact that you keep on accelerating your speed will never pass a certain point. On a fundamental level, particles don’t always have position as such - only a certain chance of causing effects in specific places. How much of that is intuitive?

If it doesn’t even work for the mere physical universe, why should it work on any other level? Which is not to say that gut feelings don’t have their place, they do. But they aren’t enough, pure logic must be brought to bear as well.

 

[Soler]

… and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It’s a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

Are you sure that this isn’t copyright infringement?

 

[atheistgirl]

… and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It’s a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

I just want to say thanks for bringing Vienna to peoples attention

Sarah x

 

[tskrobacz]

I doubt this was ever a matter of win or lose anyway! This from a highly revered Catholic priest and teacher (This level of consciousness looks like a “win” to me!)

A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.

In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination and patriarchy.

Interestingly, more holistic cultures such as Native Americans and Asiatics have no taboo against the homosexual. These cultures recognize more easily the mystery and paradox of all things human.

The True Self, who we objectively are in God, is prior and superior to any issues of gender, culture, or sexuality, which are all “accidental” to one’s foundational core as a child of God. This is why it is pure heresy to call a transgendered, gay or lesbian person “Intrinsically disordered.” The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever. Gender is a combination of biology, psychology and personal history, which are all good and necessary entrance points to the temple, but spirituality is learning how to live in the temple itself (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). What makes spirituality precisely “spiritual” is that it connects us with the Core and the Center, not just the circumference; with the essence and not just the accidents.

 

[Alexalee23]

There’s no such thing as physical contact, only electric fields.

Exactly, and I love that you said this because our creed is ALL inclusive and without exception, and states…
“…maker of ALL things seen and unseen.”
Not just some things, or good things, or things we agree with, but maker of ALL things.
I think this needs more contemplation, for although it is said many times all over the world, I often wonder how many of us really understand what we are saying.
ALL THINGS.
Therefore in my mind and heart, “win” or “lose” is not to be the issue here, and to focus on that is to miss the spiritual opportunity, not just a little, but… Completely.
Passing judgment on human behavior, feelings, emotions, logic, etc. always seems to me to be a pointless exercise, and ends up being about only ONE thing. Being right.
The righteous, protected by divine guidance will confidently claim to know what God wants.
Forgive me for saying this (in my very first post no less), and I truly do not mean to offend, but claiming to know the intentions of God in regard to the behavior and spiritual fate of another is a frightening thing. History has shown many have died, at the hands of those who have acted upon their own divine guidance.
Even on a small scale, in day to day life, if you have ever been on the receiving end of even well intended divine guidance dispensed by another, you will understand when I say that for me, love, prayer, and contemplation are the ONLY actions I will ever take concerning this topic, and it is this which gives my heart peace with this issue.

 

[Delaine75]

So what? It is not the Church’s job to sugarcoat the Truth, but to fearlessly proclaim and defend it. Just like Hannibal Lechter’s meal of liver and fava beans fails to become less gruesome just because he happens to find it tasty, a same-sex couple’s offense to God doesn’t become any better just because they derive some feeble measure of emotional satisfaction from it. Therefore, Catholics will invariably “win” since either those with same-sex attractions will accept the Truth, or they will reject it, risking a damnation that Aquinas assures us the faithful will rejoice in.

 

[Andre1000]

With the Catholic faith comes moral. We should not focus on one sin, we should fight all sins equally. It sometimes looks like we are OK with civil marriage and half nude girls on the street and drinking too much… but gay marriage we oppose. When we preach against gay marriage than we have to preach against all sins. I find this too one sited.

 

[Alexalee23]

So what? It is not the Church’s job to sugarcoat the Truth, but to fearlessly proclaim and defend it… Catholics will invariably “win” since either those with same-sex attractions will accept the Truth, or they will reject it, risking a damnation that Aquinas assures us the faithful will rejoice in.

And what is the TRUTH you speak of and what is it based on?

The Pope said that Christ “guides and is responsible for the Christian community as its leader and its Lord. The Church is subject to Him, both to follow His superior guidance and to receive all of the life that emanates from Him.”
Vatican City, Jan 14, 2009 / 11:05 am (CNA).

To my knowledge, according to the gospels, Jesus never commented on same-sex practices.

 

[Alexalee23]

Also, in my humble opinion, (sorry Aquinas), I don’t think the damnation of other souls in anything to rejoice in.

 

[Andre1000]

And what is the TRUTH you speak of and what is it based on?

The Pope said that Christ “guides and is responsible for the Christian community as its leader and its Lord. The Church is subject to Him, both to follow His superior guidance and to receive all of the life that emanates from Him.”
Vatican City, Jan 14, 2009 / 11:05 am (CNA).

To my knowledge, according to the gospels, Jesus never commented on same-sex practices.

First Paul did.
You forgot sacred Tradition, the Church always taught that it is a sin, so it is a sin. Every teaching of the Church is from Jesus. The Truth is in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, not only in gospels.

 

[cmforte]

tskrobacz: I doubt this was ever a matter of win or lose anyway! This from a highly revered Catholic priest and teacher (This level of consciousness looks like a “win” to me!)

**Interestingly, more holistic cultures such as Native Americans **and Asiatics have no taboo against the homosexual. These cultures recognize more easily the mystery and paradox of all things human.

Respectfully-speaking, I don’t think that priest ever met a Native American. I grew up with them. Believe me, it is a taboo!!

-Chris

 

[fix]

With the Catholic faith comes moral. We should not focus on one sin, we should fight all sins equally. It sometimes looks like we are OK with civil marriage and half nude girls on the street and drinking too much… but gay marriage we oppose. When we preach against gay marriage than we have to preach against all sins. I find this too one sited.

Why must all efforts be equal? That seems unjust.

 

[fix]

… and all in under 5 minutes!

youtube.com/watch?v=rikj0WMGbDU

The human face of actual homosexuals in the real world where they have real feelings and real lives. It’s a tough thing to argue against genuine, loving warmth with cold abstractions.

No its not. What may be hard is for moral relativists to accept what is true. The arguments are not the problem.

By the standards we read here from the homosexual apologists it would seem that “loving” means anything goes. I mean if your neighbor is nice and says please and thank then we must over look that he works for planned parenthood or is a pornographer.

The point is that people can act nicely and do some things that we call nice does not mean that any behavior is acceptable.

 

[Seeker1961]

The Church will probably not “win” as far as keeping secular society from allowing civil marriages for gay couples. Gay people who have zero commitment to the Catholic church are marrying now, and they will likely get the right to marry in more places as the years pass. And just like there has been no complete collapse of society in areas where gay people can marry now, there won’t be one later either. It’s going to be just one other thing where the Church says NO and the rest of the world says YES. This should not be a shock to anyone-we were told it was going to be this way before Jesus even left the earth.

Having said ALL that, the Church’s position on gay marriage is not going to change. If you want to be Catholic, you’re going to have to live with that. It’s not an easy thing to come to grips with-because there isn’t a miracle attraction change in the cards for all of us. Most of us are not just going to wake up straight some morning. Some of us get to live with our attraction our whole life, and we have to choose whether we’re going to act on that attraction or remain Catholic and obey Church teaching. That is the choice-the action, not the attraction.

Catholics and other Christians have this image of gay people as ALL being the folks in the gay pride parade and they are basing their impressions on an entire group of people on that image. The “out and in your face” gay people are loud and they make a big impression-just like the Phelps family-and I can tell you this: many gay people feel the same way about them as true Christians feel about the Phelps family. I’ve been part of the gay community for a LONG time, and I can tell you that most of us have more in common with you than we do those guys with the spandex and the rainbow boas at the Pride parade. We go to work, we pay our taxes, we buy our groceries…you probably don’t have any idea how many gay people you interact with on a daily basis. Those folks really do just want to live their lives and get the same benefits every other taxpaying couple gets.

 

[epan]

The New York Times Magazine a Sunday or two ago had an article about young boys, that prefer to act, and behave, like girls: wearing dresses and having their own fashion shows. Apparently, even the most liberal parents of these boys, are struggling hard with the issue of homosexuality, and their own children. Homosexuality is a hard loss to win.

What in the world does gender identity have to do with sexual orientation? Does the NY Times article make a cogent correlation between them?

 

[epan]

The Church will probably not “win” as far as keeping secular society from allowing civil marriages for gay couples. Gay people who have zero commitment to the Catholic church are marrying now, and they will likely get the right to marry in more places as the years pass. And just like there has been no complete collapse of society in areas where gay people can marry now, there won’t be one later either. It’s going to be just one other thing where the Church says NO and the rest of the world says YES. This should not be a shock to anyone-we were told it was going to be this way before Jesus even left the earth.

Having said ALL that, the Church’s position on gay marriage is not going to change. If you want to be Catholic, you’re going to have to live with that. It’s not an easy thing to come to grips with-because there isn’t a miracle attraction change in the cards for all of us. Most of us are not just going to wake up straight some morning. Some of us get to live with our attraction our whole life, and we have to choose whether we’re going to act on that attraction or remain Catholic and obey Church teaching. That is the choice-the action, not the attraction.

Catholics and other Christians have this image of gay people as ALL being the folks in the gay pride parade and they are basing their impressions on an entire group of people on that image. The “out and in your face” gay people are loud and they make a big impression-just like the Phelps family-and I can tell you this: many gay people feel the same way about them as true Christians feel about the Phelps family. I’ve been part of the gay community for a LONG time, and I can tell you that most of us have more in common with you than we do those guys with the spandex and the rainbow boas at the Pride parade. We go to work, we pay our taxes, we buy our groceries…you probably don’t have any idea how many gay people you interact with on a daily basis. Those folks really do just want to live their lives and get the same benefits every other taxpaying couple gets.

I agree with this post, except that I would say instead that, it is unlikely tat the Catholic Church will change it’s position. But if one looks at the sweep of history, the prediction of such things is never certain.

 

[Captain_America]

If you like. There isn’t really an argument in the video. I don’t know how you “contradict” the experience of real people, but if you found something that does that, I’m game.

ummmm. . . every day you find yourself guided more by “abstractions” or ideas more than “human faces.”

 

[Seeker1961]

I agree with this post, except that I would say instead that, it is unlikely tat the Catholic Church will change it’s position. But if one looks at the sweep of history, the prediction of such things is never certain.

I believe I said that the Catholic Church will not ever change her position.

Having said ALL that, the Church’s position on gay marriage is not going to change.

 

[Andre1000]

Why must all efforts be equal? That seems unjust.

Sorry “equal” was a stupid word to use. I mean that the Church should more talk about all mortal sins and be a bit more equal.

 

[fix]

Sorry “equal” was a stupid word to use. I mean that the Church should more talk about all mortal sins and be a bit more equal.

The Church opposes all sin. The homosexuality issues are talked about because they are constantly in the media, news, and all else.