Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[fix]

it is only the catholics who believe that masturbation is a mortal sin; so all other people(S) are destined for hell?

The Truth is the Truth regardless of what people believe.

scientifically it is proved that mast…is a harmless exercise and giving it the label of ‘mortal’ causes much confusion amongst the teenagers esp. boys and make them guilty of a grave sin, which it may not be.

Science does not determine moral truth.

in this context, we may recall that the clergy is guilty of the worst kind of sin, that of using their authority to molest children and lead them astray, and it appears that they are well SHIELDED!

Jesus himself had warned these elders against misleading innocent children and leading them astray…

That is nothing to do with anything here.

 

[fix]

“what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”

How does that apply?

 

[fix]

How sad it is that so many Catholics cannot accept that nothing in this world, short of God himself, is perfect or absolute. We have such a need to “know” that the church is infallible when history clearly demonstrates that is not always the case.

Is this an infallible statement?

 

[tskrobacz]

Is this an infallible statement?

By your question are you stating that the Church is infallible? Why would anyone take such a position?

 

[CopticChristian]

We have such a strong need, as humans, to have an absolute authority on earth so that we ourselves do not have to do the work of discerning the will of God for our life. It is so much easier to simply delegate it and simply believe that if I do as I am told by this church or that I will be “right” 100% of the time. This is 1st half of life, tribal religious thinking. While it is important for formation, later in life it can become dangerous and is, no doubt, the cause of many wars and the untold violence many “religious” reap upon their brother or sister.

My personal values are indeed formed largely from my Catholic upbringing and studies and from careful prayer and discernment of God’s will for my life. Values cannot be more important than “God Himself” as it is through him and with him (not the institutional church) that we move and live and have our being.

When did I say “my values are more important than God wants me to know”…this is you,CC, asserting that the only way to approach God is to remain 100% in concert with the institutional Catholic church which is clearly not true. While the church provides a path to higher consciousness many have achieved enlightenment (Ghandi, MLK, Dali Lama, etc) through alternate paths…our God is not so limited. In fact the most enlightened of our day (eg. Catholic Thomas Merton), taught eastern philosophies and ideas born in Buddhism and other traditions to enrich the Christian journey. He did not have such a narrow point of view.

Simply, to learn how not to be right in ways that make others wrong.

Tsk,

So you want me to believe that you are in search of enlightenment and follow people and not Christ. To follow Christ is to recognize Him in the Church.

The Church is the Bride of Christ
The Church is the Body of Christ
Christ is Head of The Church
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth
The Church is the means by which the manifold wisdom of God is known
The Church is the means by which Gentiles are made fellow heirs with Christ…

Of course this comes from the Bible which you say you will not subjugate your values to as you said this…

**to words in the CCC, the Bible, or other church teachings **

So you want to follow people that provide you solace in believing you are following teachings that suit your beliefs and deny that the teachings of the Church are God given. That is what you want to do.

You want me to learn how not to be right in a way so as to make others wrong. Did Jesus teach this?

Good Rabbi…why do you call me good…God alone is good

Why did Moses allow Divorce…in the beginning it was not so

You forgive sins on a sabbath…which is greater to forgive sins or to take up yourself and walk…

He was constantly making the Pharisees wrong…and God is love and Jesus was the God/man…God is not in the business of pleasing you or causing you to feel that it is important that when right it must be done so as not to make you wrong.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. You believe in no absolutes. I see your problem. It is what Tsk wants to do and allowed to do to feed the created passions and desires that allow Tsk to stay distant from the God that created him so as to speak against the Church that the creator established so as to know fully what He wants from you. I undertand you completely.

And now the end is near,
And so I face the final curtain
My friend I’ll say it clear
I’ll state my case, all of which I’m certain
I lived a life, a life that’s full
I’ve travelled each and every highway
And more, much more than this, I did it may way

Tsk…heard this before…many do it…

If you want to be a child of God, then recognized God as Father, and as a good Father tells you

don’t cross the street without looking both ways
Eat your vegetables
Respect others
Don’t dabble in the occult
Homosexual acts are immoral

The Father uses the Son, through the Church to do the same thing…this is what you will find in Veritiatis Splendor…when the will is aligned with God’s Will and not Tsks will then you will know true freedom and all this nonsense about enlightenment, love’s work, being right so as not to be wrong will fade away…

Be a child, listen to the Father, learn that there is right and wrong and moral and immorral…How can something be absolutely immorral, stated to be immoral, taught that it is immoral in your paradigm stated correctly and properly and then stated so as to not make someone else wrong. You can’t do it and that is not the love of the Father…Love is willing God to someone…how can you Will God to someone with wishy washy…this is right and proper and I don’t want you to be wrong because I love you?

 

[interestedman]

The whole of psychology does NOT disagree that homosexuality is a disorder. The DSM used to contain homosexuality as a disorder. Only recently (1986) was it removed. That means up until then, it was acknowledged as a disorder. Even with it removed, many psychologists today still view it and argue that it is a disorder.

Your argument is like saying, “In 1972, abortion was made legal, and therefore all politicians and judges believe that abortion is okay.” We know this not to be the case and the debate is split with more than half of the population leaning towards pro-life. Just because something is standardized or in writing, does not make it “the whole of” anything nor does it make the opposing argument “biased garbage.”

Does Elton John and company suffer from deep emotional wounds? I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone in this world who doesn’t suffer. Appearances are just that - appearances and we are all suffering our exile from our eternal destiny until we die.

The trouble is, as is especially the case in 1st world countries, we don’t want to admit that we have problems and weaknesses… that we are disordered. But we have become such a disordered society that we celebrate disorder. We are Sodom and Gomorrah. We celebrate abortion, contraception, pornography, homosexuality, fornication, greed, and more. It is so rampant that these things have become the norm. But as Fulton Sheen, so often quoted, said, “Right is right, even if no one is right. Wrong is wrong, even if everyone is wrong.”

Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. The Church’s teaching has **always ** been that homosexuality is indeed an intrinsic evil. I reiterate that, as with any sin, it is the act that is evil, not the person.

The homosexuality debate is so highly charged because it is emotional, and so people bring in emotional arguments. It’s personal. “If I have same sex attraction, and homosexuality is bad, then I must be bad. But I’m not bad, so same sex attraction must be good, and the homosexual act must be good.” This is bad logic.

It is those who are shouting, “you homophobic bigots, stop judging” that are the ones actually doing the judging. Why? Because they are equating the act with the person. They cannot separate the two. They see no difference between sin and sinner. The RCC separates sin from the sinner.

We’ve all heard, “hate the sin, love the sinner.” When people get defensive when someone says, “homosexual behavior is a sin,” often, they take it as, “a person with ssa is evil.” Of course they would get defensive. But those two statements are not the same… not even close.

The DSM took it out as a disorder almost 30 years ago. Do you know how much psychology has grown in 30 years? A lot of the things that we used to believe 30 years ago are completely wrong. And I challenge you to find a psychologist that still views homosexuality is a disorder that doesn’t have strong religious beliefs that hold the same view.

And lets try some empathy for a second. I am assuming that you are a heterosexual and are married. Imagine if people told you that your attraction to your wife is a disorder, that consummating your marriage is a huge sin, and that you should stay celibate and not to give into your sinful urges. Then imagine that the people that told you all this said “don’t worry, we love you, we just hate your sin.” Does that sound very loving? Of course not.

 

[interestedman]

So what! Your opinion is no more valid than anyone’s either so what you think really doesn’t mean anything does it?

That is fine. I just don’t think that you should be trying to push your religious beliefs on others then by being against gay marriage because the church says so.

 

[buffalo]

The DSM took it out as a disorder almost 30 years ago. Do you know how much psychology has grown in 30 years? A lot of the things that we used to believe 30 years ago are completely wrong. And I challenge you to find a psychologist that still views homosexuality is a disorder that doesn’t have strong religious beliefs that hold the same view.

And lets try some empathy for a second. I am assuming that you are a heterosexual and are married. Imagine if people told you that your attraction to your wife is a disorder, that consummating your marriage is a huge sin, and that you should stay celibate and not to give into your sinful urges. Then imagine that the people that told you all this said “don’t worry, we love you, we just hate your sin.” Does that sound very loving? Of course not.

You are correct about the volatility of psychology. It is shambles now.

Catholics hate evil wherever it is found. No apologies here.

Love is not tolerance

BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG  *Christian love bears evil, but  it does not tolerate it. *

It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
*The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

 

[fix]

And lets try some empathy for a second. I am assuming that you are a heterosexual and are married. Imagine if people told you that your attraction to your wife is a disorder, that consummating your marriage is a huge sin, and that you should stay celibate and not to give into your sinful urges. Then imagine that the people that told you all this said “don’t worry, we love you, we just hate your sin.” Does that sound very loving? Of course not.

That really makes no sense. That would be like saying: tell a person with vision that vision is wrong. They really should be blind. It makes no sense.

Seeing is not pathology. Heterosexuality is correctly ordered. For your question to be valid one must see every variation in health as normal. You must redefine what is health and what is pathology.

 

[buffalo]

That is fine. I just don’t think that you should be trying to push your religious beliefs on others then by being against gay marriage because the church says so.

Why not? The Church has thousands of years of accumulated wisdom.

But, it still makes no sense even if you remove religion from the argument.

 

[interestedman]

Interested,

FYI…every Christian of whatever stripe reads a Bible and in that Bible we read from Paul…

This was written 2000 years ago. Now what you are proposing is more than one God that abrogates the prayer of Israel…from Deuterotomy…the Old Testament and this offends the Jewish Population…

So now you have offended the Jew and the Christian that believes there is one God…true there are groups that believe in many gods and other gods. So the opinion of those that believe in one God is the preponderance of the world if you have not noticed. Check the website Adherence…

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

You will see that those that believe in one God in the World consist of about 51% of the world population and the Hindu many gods about 14%, while those that have no religion…is about 16%.

So it appears that those that do not believe in one God is a minority and when you compare and contrast that with the Jewish journey, Israel…calling for one God to now…a small tribe in the Middle East…calling for one God…has caused the world to change to a majority that believe in one God…

In other words we are only in the second inning and it appears that the notion of one God is gaining momentum…and those that deny God are looking for a relief pitcher…not able to strike the hitter out…

I wasn’t saying that there are more than one God. I was just saying that many people believe there is one true God yet lots of them have a completely different view of that one God. Also I dispute the fact that ancient Israelites believed in one God. They only worshipped El or YHWH or whatever you want to call God, but it says right in the commandments that you should “not have any other gods besides me.” Why didn’t it just say that no other gods exist? Why did they worship false idols constantly?

 

[fix]

By your question are you stating that the Church is infallible? Why would anyone take such a position?

You claim the Church is not infallible so is your claim infallible? Why are you correct and the Church is not?

 

[interestedman]

In case your intrested there is only one God, for all creation! How clear God makes things is up to you. And all them other gods do not exist.

Well you just convinced me with your logic and reason!

 

[interestedman]

That really makes no sense. That would be like saying: tell a person with vision that vision is wrong. They really should be blind. It makes no sense.

Seeing is not pathology. Heterosexuality is correctly ordered. For your question to be valid one must see every variation in health as normal. You must redefine what is health and what is pathology.

Just think about the example. Obviously that would never happen, but just try to think about it as if it were true. How would you feel?

 

[interestedman]

Why not? The Church has thousands of years of accumulated wisdom.

But, it still makes no sense even if you remove religion from the argument.

Thousands of years of accumulated wisdom to you is archaic and biggoted to me.

 

[CopticChristian]

I wasn’t saying that there are more than one God. I was just saying that many people believe there is one true God yet lots of them have a completely different view of that one God. Also I dispute the fact that ancient Israelites believed in one God. They only worshipped El or YHWH or whatever you want to call God, but it says right in the commandments that you should “not have any other gods besides me.” Why didn’t it just say that no other gods exist? Why did they worship false idols constantly?

Interested,

You may want to study the Bible and Church teachings. Israel was to be the light of the nations as an older son teaching the nations…and Paul routinely points out that the Jews were a stiff necked people and did not learn…Why no other god’s? Who knows…but the notion of worshipping false idols was akin to be worldly…in other words being like the other nations with wealth, power, sex…and all the other things was not what the One God wanted for His people and because of that the Jews were constantly enslaved.

Solomon was the Priest/King that was powerful as long as he did not succumb to Power, Wealth, Sex…and his power went away with building an army, taxing the people…wherr 666 is used only here and in Revelation…and with concubines…rather than listening and conquering with Spiritual wisdom he chose worldly wisdom and the result was the same as not worshipping the one true God…

I suggest you take up the dispute of one true God in the Israelites with Meltzerboy…I am sure that he would differ with you. You are dishonoring the Jewish heritage.

 

[tskrobacz]

Tsk,

So you want me to believe that you are in search of enlightenment and follow people and not Christ. To follow Christ is to recognize Him in the Church.

The Church is the Bride of Christ
The Church is the Body of Christ
Christ is Head of The Church
The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth
The Church is the means by which the manifold wisdom of God is known
The Church is the means by which Gentiles are made fellow heirs with Christ…

Of course this comes from the Bible which you say you will not subjugate your values to as you said this…

**to words in the CCC, the Bible, or other church teachings **

So you want to follow people that provide you solace in believing you are following teachings that suit your beliefs and deny that the teachings of the Church are God given. That is what you want to do.

You want me to learn how not to be right in a way so as to make others wrong. Did Jesus teach this?

Good Rabbi…why do you call me good…God alone is good

Why did Moses allow Divorce…in the beginning it was not so

You forgive sins on a sabbath…which is greater to forgive sins or to take up yourself and walk…

He was constantly making the Pharisees wrong…and God is love and Jesus was the God/man…God is not in the business of pleasing you or causing you to feel that it is important that when right it must be done so as not to make you wrong.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. You believe in no absolutes. I see your problem. It is what Tsk wants to do and allowed to do to feed the created passions and desires that allow Tsk to stay distant from the God that created him so as to speak against the Church that the creator established so as to know fully what He wants from you. I undertand you completely.

And now the end is near,
And so I face the final curtain
My friend I’ll say it clear
I’ll state my case, all of which I’m certain
I lived a life, a life that’s full
I’ve travelled each and every highway
And more, much more than this, I did it may way

Tsk…heard this before…many do it…

If you want to be a child of God, then recognized God as Father, and as a good Father tells you

don’t cross the street without looking both ways
Eat your vegetables
Respect others
Don’t dabble in the occult
Homosexual acts are immoral

The Father uses the Son, through the Church to do the same thing…this is what you will find in Veritiatis Splendor…when the will is aligned with God’s Will and not Tsks will then you will know true freedom and all this nonsense about enlightenment, love’s work, being right so as not to be wrong will fade away…

Be a child, listen to the Father, learn that there is right and wrong and moral and immorral…How can something be absolutely immorral, stated to be immoral, taught that it is immoral in your paradigm stated correctly and properly and then stated so as to not make someone else wrong. You can’t do it and that is not the love of the Father…Love is willing God to someone…how can you Will God to someone with wishy washy…this is right and proper and I don’t want you to be wrong because I love you?

To follow Christ is to recognize Christ in all of his creation - if you limit it to “Church” you exclude a large part of the body. How is it that you understand me completely? You simply throw words at that which you do not understand. My position remains unchanged by anything that you have stated.

 

[buffalo]

Thousands of years of accumulated wisdom to you is archaic and biggoted to me.

No doubt. But there is still hope for you.

Arguments for same sex so-called marriage are nothing more than emotional ones. They are simply licentious.

 

[CopticChristian]

Just think about the example. Obviously that would never happen, but just try to think about it as if it were true. How would you feel?

Interested,

To think of this as true would be to equate the same issues as equivalent and they are not. There can be no as if because they are not equivalent.

Imagine what it would be like if there were laws that prevented you from having a wife and children and compare that to NAMBLA and their desire to have relations to little boys. Imagine how you would feel if you could not have those relations.

Does not equate.

 

[CopticChristian]

The DSM took it out as a disorder almost 30 years ago. Do you know how much psychology has grown in 30 years? A lot of the things that we used to believe 30 years ago are completely wrong. And I challenge you to find a psychologist that still views homosexuality is a disorder that doesn’t have strong religious beliefs that hold the same view.

And lets try some empathy for a second. I am assuming that you are a heterosexual and are married. Imagine if people told you that your attraction to your wife is a disorder, that consummating your marriage is a huge sin, and that you should stay celibate and not to give into your sinful urges. Then imagine that the people that told you all this said “don’t worry, we love you, we just hate your sin.” Does that sound very loving? Of course not.

Interested,

Psychology has grown? Point out the growth. It is dissipated into a shambles with homosexuals in charge of the APA. Homosexuals took Homosexuality out of the DSM and so what that does not change what is. Without the DSM, with or without religious beliefs it is possible to believe that Homosexuality is disordered. Psychiatrists are not the thought police that can tell me or anyone else how to view things in particular when their credibility is down the tubes.

I challenge you to find me a Homosexual couple that can procreate.