Why Catholics will never "win" on homosexuality

[buffalo]

One does not sin for simply being who they are created to be.

No evidence they are created that way.

The act is the sin.

 

[buffalo]

Why is that so hard to understand - some people are created to be tall also. Just look around you will find many good, loving homosexuals created all around you.

Catholics are most interested in their well being here and in the after-life. Christian charity demands fraternal correction.

 

[CopticChristian]

True, but the fact that they were born with same-sex attraction does not mean that they were made to engage in homosexual sex. For that to happen, two men or two women would have to be able to sexually produce a baby.

If those people bore their crosses with patience, faith, hope and love, and refrained from sinful activities like homosexual relations, they would truly be who they were meant to be. We all have our sufferings to bear, and the sufferings of these people, offered in love and patience for the sins of others, would bear much fruit.

Lochias,

Here is the rub. I am a hetersoexual male with opposite sex attraction. I do not act on my thoughts, I do not seek to satisfy my thoughts, I do not dwell on my thoughts. I see a woman and say “wow she really knows how to jog”…and then on to reality. It does not consume my life. My actions do not define my life. The opposite is true for the homosexual that acts on their thoughts. They become their thoughts.

 

[buffalo]

In my opinion it seems that way. Why would ANYONE choose to be gay? Wouldn’t you rather not be ridiculed and persecuted?

Suppose the preponderance of hormones in our food/water supply is a contributing factor?

What should we do then?

 

[interestedman]

Some people do bad things to other people. Having an attraction for others of the same sex is no guarantee of persecution or ridicule; and conversely, no person alive today is immune to persecution or ridicule. just ask us Catholics and other Christians; I would say we don’t deserve it, but it happens anyway.

You live in Texas and you are comparing persecution of gays to persecution of Christians and Catholics? You HAVE to be kidding me. How can Christians and Catholics be persecuted if probably more than 3 out of 4 people in Texas identify as one of those groups?

 

[interestedman]

Interested,

Why is never a good question to ask…there is never any one answer. The best answer would be the pursuit of pleasure.

I am assuming you are straight. If you wanted to, could you ever “choose” to be gay. Do you ever see yourself being able to be attracted to the same sex? You think you could just choose it?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

I am assuming you are straight. If you wanted to, could you ever “choose” to be gay. Do you ever see yourself being able to be attracted to the same sex? You think you could just choose it?

Men in prison seem to be capable of doing this all the time. Out of prison, they live heterosexual lives.

 

[davidv]

I am assuming you are straight. If you wanted to, could you ever “choose” to be gay. Do you ever see yourself being able to be attracted to the same sex? You think you could just choose it?

Sinful actions are always chosen. The passions/thoughts that lead to these sins are not always chosen.

 

[buffalo]

You live in Texas and you are comparing persecution of gays to persecution of Christians and Catholics? You HAVE to be kidding me. How can Christians and Catholics be persecuted if probably more than 3 out of 4 people in Texas identify as one of those groups?

The Church is in a modern day persecution:
The New Anti-Catholicism

                                                                                  The Last Acceptable Prejudice

Anti-Catholicism has a long history in America. And as Philip Jenkins argues in The New Anti-Catholicism, this virulent strain of hatred–once thought dead–is alive and well in our nation, but few people seem to notice. Jenkins shines a light on anti-Catholic sentiment in American society and illuminates its causes, looking closely at gay and feminist anti-Catholicism, anti-Catholic rhetoric and imagery in the media, and the anti-Catholicism of the academic world. For newspapers and magazines, for television news and in movies, and for major book publishers, the Catholic Church has come to provide a grossly stereotyped public villain. Catholic opinions, doctrines, and individual leaders are frequently the butt of harsh satire. Indeed, the notion that the church is a deadly enemy of women–the idea of Catholic misogyny–is commonly accepted in the news media and in popular culture, says Jenkins. And the recent pedophile priest scandal, he shows, has revived many ancient anti-Catholic stereotypes.
It was said that with the election of John F. Kennedy, anti-Catholicism in America was dead. This provocative new book corrects that illusion, drawing attention to this important issue.

 

[Andre1000]

I am assuming you are straight. If you wanted to, could you ever “choose” to be gay. Do you ever see yourself being able to be attracted to the same sex? You think you could just choose it?

You can also have no sex at all.

 

[CopticChristian]

Men in prison seem to be capable of doing this all the time. Out of prison, they live heterosexual lives.

Crimson,

This is an interesting point. I thought of this in the past and have not found much. I am sure that there is a wealth of information on this. We all know and understand that in prison homosexuality exists. The question is what happpens before and after.

williamapercy.com/wiki/images/Prison_Homosexuality_and_Its_Effect.pdf

Read the last two paragraphs before reading the entire article…here is what is said concerning latency…

"The question of whether repeated homosexual experience lead to fixed or exclusive homosexuality, or are time-limited in a one-sex setting, does not depend primarily on whether the experiences are actively sought, nor on the amount of sexual pleasure obtained, but on the **meanings imputed to the experience **by the actor.

The post-prison experiences of these nine persons, when compared with their pre-prison and prison sexual behavior, would suggest not a theory of latency, but a **theory of malleability **of human sexual orientation"

The things that are striking for me are the following. We attach meaning to our thoughts and that is what the Meta Model of the mind says. No thought has a meaning until we give it that meaning. We can change the meaning of that thought. Values are the same. What we value can change based on belief, education, acceptance.

The author is saying that sexual orientation is not fixed, it is malleable or changeable and that change is brought about by the meaning attached to the experience. This is also consistent with the Meta Model of the mind. If we can attach a positive thought that causes us to seek behavior, then to change the behavior we can and do change the meaning to that thought. If the meaning for in the first case is pleasure then to change the meaning to be a higher standard or acceptable standard that is more useful and productive can be done as well. Do we not all change the meaning that we give to what it is we choose not to do and correct.

Stealing gives me goods. Lying gets me ahead.

Stealing is not good for others and I don’t want to take what is not mine. I do not steal.

Lying is dishonest. It is hurtful. I have been hurt by my lies. I will not lie.

We can change. The problem is that those that choose not to change are unwilling to relinquish the Pleasure attached to the thought and the action.

 

[buffalo]

Crimson,

This is an interesting point. I thought of this in the past and have not found much. I am sure that there is a wealth of information on this. We all know and understand that in prison homosexuality exists. The question is what happpens before and after.

williamapercy.com/wiki/images/Prison_Homosexuality_and_Its_Effect.pdf

Read the last two paragraphs before reading the entire article…here is what is said concerning latency…

The things that are striking for me are the following. We attach meaning to our thoughts and that is what the Meta Model of the mind says. No thought has a meaning until we give it that meaning. We can change the meaning of that thought. Values are the same. What we value can change based on belief, education, acceptance.

The author is saying that sexual orientation is not fixed, it is malleable or changeable and that change is brought about by the meaning attached to the experience. This is also consistent with the Meta Model of the mind. If we can attach a positive thought that causes us to seek behavior, then to change the behavior we can and do change the meaning to that thought. If the meaning for in the first case is pleasure then to change the meaning to be a higher standard or acceptable standard that is more useful and productive can be done as well. Do we not all change the meaning that we give to what it is we choose not to do and correct.

Stealing gives me goods. Lying gets me ahead.

Stealing is not good for others and I don’t want to take what is not mine. I do not steal.

Lying is dishonest. It is hurtful. I have been hurt by my lies. I will not lie.

We can change. The problem is that those that choose not to change are unwilling to relinquish the Pleasure attached to the thought and the action.

In prison it is pretty obvious. Power and the base animal urges. In other words, whatever is convenient to please me right here, right now.

 

[Lochias]

You live in Texas and you are comparing persecution of gays to persecution of Christians and Catholics? You HAVE to be kidding me. How can Christians and Catholics be persecuted if probably more than 3 out of 4 people in Texas identify as one of those groups?

Doesn’t have anything to do with anything. The HHS mandate persecutes Christians and others who wish to live their faith’s decrees no matter where they live, just to give one example.

 

[Peter_Plato]

In my opinion it seems that way. Why would ANYONE choose to be gay? Wouldn’t you rather not be ridiculed and persecuted?

Why would anyone choose to be commit a crime like murder? Wouldn’t you rather not be arrested, prosecuted and possibly condemned to death (in some states)? Your argument is not an argument.

There have been studies on marmoset monkeys by Barrett and others (see this document ) that show subordinate females in a social group will become infertile and cease ovulation simply because of social pressures (i.e., being in the presence of a dominant female for a period of time). If this is true and radical changes - not simply to sexual behavior - to sexual physiology itself can occur as the result of social factors, as the research bears out, then there is strong reason for believing that social factors can influence sexual orientation (i.e., same sex attraction is not an innate orientation but a preference based upon social factors).

So the answer to your question, “Why would anyone choose to be gay?” can be stated as: There are strong social pressures that compel someone to choose a gay lifestyle or orientation, just as there are strong social factors that might compel someone to smoke, be promiscuous, lie, steal, cheat, etc., even when their choice of action is clearly not conducive to their well-being.

Strong social factors have always been part of the world condition that Christians have found themselves mired in. In ancient Rome, there were strong social pressures to adulate the emperor. In 1930s Germany, there were strong social pressures to adopt a fascist world view. In the 1930s and 1950s there were strong social pressures in Europe to adopt communism. The Church has prevailed against these and other social pressures and defined itself more clearly because of them.

In modern secular culture there are strong social pressures to view contraception, abortion, euthanasia and same sex marriage as permissible. They clearly are not supported by core Christian and Catholic teachings. These heresies, if adopted, would not more clearly define the Church but radically alter it and ultimately, if followed, eradicate it. Be assured, that will not happen! The gates of hell will not prevail… even when it appears to die, as Christ on the cross, resurrection will be inevitable.

See also this video by Fr. Robert Barron

And this one on For Greater Glory

 

[MarkInOregon]

Your question is rooted in a dualistic mindset that requires there to be an absolute “right” and “wrong” - whereas a non-dualistic mindset is open to the possibility that what I perceive from my finite self as “Good” or “Right” may also have a dark side and vice versa. I have no doubt that God oceanic-ally loves us all and allows us to make choices for good or for evil…as only true love can. There are acts of self will, (e.g. Adultery, Murder, etc) which are clearly counter to loving union.

Homosexuality does not fall into this space as it is who the person is intrinsically created to be. A person is Homosexual or they are not. A person is Black or they are not. A person is Blind or they are not, A person is Male, or they are not…you get the idea. The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever.

So are you saying you do not believe in an absolute “right” or “wrong”? Or are you saying that you cannot know the absolute “right” or “wrong”?

When you state there are acts of self will (e.g. Adultery, Murder, etc.) which are clearly counter to loving union–how do you know that this is not simply your perception?

Regarding your idea of “intrinsic creation”-- how does this apply to those who are created with an intrinsic sexual attraction to children? Is this part of their “intrinsic foundation of the human person ] given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever”?

Isn’t there a difference betweeen blindness and being ethnicity? Are you implying that we should not cure a persons blindness if we can?

You seem to imply that you think murder and adultery or wrong --what does this do to that persons relationship with God and with society if they do not repent and do not believe their actions are wrong? What do you make of such a person–or are you open to the possibility that your finite perception is wrong–so you will love and embrace these people and offer no guidance or correctiom?

I am just trying to fully understand what you are saying.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I hate when the argument gets into this arena for this reason:

[SIGN]It Does NOT Matter if Homosexual Orientation is a Choice or Not[/SIGN]

It does absolutely nothing to affect the argument.

I don’t care if you’re “born gay”. I don’t care if you chose it or not.

What I DO care about is ACTING on those feelings. I’m sorry, but “born gay” or not homosexual marriage is still wrong. Homosexual relations are still wrong.

I’m not asking for homosexuals to turn straight. I’m asking to them to stop trying to get society to accept homosexual marriage. If you want to have homosexual relations, well, I think you’re sinning but I don’t think there’s any way I could stop you without overstepping boundaries.

I don’t care about how you came to be a homosexual. At all.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Are we wrong to teach adultery is wrong and call those who commit it to repentance? QUOTE

---

YOU are aware that Jesus did not “call those who commit it to repentance”

he was gracious and magnanimous enough to forgive her and release her from the clutches of the Magisteriam, whose lust was responsible for her sin!

if you have no sin mark, you must cast the first stone!..mark it for future ref.

What does the statement “Go and sin no more” mean to you? What is it with you people–where have I or anyone else claimed to be without sin? Where have I or anyone else claimed that anyone guilty of sin should be stoned–as opposed to forgiven and reconciled to God? Most of us clearly acknowledge our sinfulness and constant need to be forgiven for our shortcomings. Clearly adultery was a sin – he forgave her and commanded her to sin no more. The problem is that today many want to take sin and claim it is not sin. Do you think it is not possible to know sin?

Peace,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Why is that so hard to understand - some people are created to be tall also. Just look around you will find many good, loving homosexuals created all around you.

I was created to do the will of God not to be tall. I may happen to be tall but that is not why I was created.

Peace,
Mark

 

[He_Man]

you seem to be an imbecile when you do not know that the WORD OF GOD is not the church-an imperfect one at that from what Jesus had instituted and had in mind…

THE WORD OF GOD DECLARES THAT THE WORD OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST MADE FLESH AND IS WITH US !!!(IMMANUEL, GOD WITH US)

Oh you. Sugar and sweet words are the way to a man’s heart.

 

[He_Man]

I am missing your point.

I am too, but I am an imbecile, apparently. Case in point, I originally typed this:

“.Yltnerappa ,elicibmi na ma I tub ,oot ma I”

then realized my keyboard was upside down. What a goof I am.