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exoflare
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Oooh snap.
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Nine_Two
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Actually Orthodox celebrate it December 25th, it’s just that some Churches use a calendar that is about two weeks behind.Early Christians didn’t celebrate Christ’s birth? The tradition of Christmas (date is insignificant, Orthodox celebrate it on 6 January and we have no beef with that) didn’t come from the Apostles? And how exactly have you managed to prove those two negatives - given that no early Christian ever wrote about how they emphatically DIDN’T celebrate Christmas.
It’s a bit like saying Mary must’ve died right after Pentecost because there’s no mention of her by name in the remainder of the New Testament or early Christian writings - likewise all the Apostles who didn’t write epistles.
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rovimax
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Many times I’ve read the meaning of denomination, I still can’t grasp why people are saying they are non-denominational while they have their ***own group ***and will accept only those who agree with them. Sorry maybe my english is not good enough.
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jpaul1953
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DEear Hisalone,
You might be rather surprised why we, the Catholics, celebrate Christmas on a day that isn’t absolutely guaranteed to be the day of Christ’s birth. Some say it is celebrated on a Roman pagan holiday but the truth is:
Jesus’ birth is celebrated during the winter solstace, just as John the Baptist is celebrated during the summer solstace.
John the Baptist said: " I will decrease and He will increase." John’s birthday falls on the day after the longest day of light on the earth, thereby decreasing in light one day at a time until the winter solstace. Jesus’ birthday is celebrated on the first day following the shortest day of light on the earth, thereby increasing in light from that day forward.
Since no one knew the exact day of Christ’s birth and the Church made the calendar during Pope Gregory’s term, the Church decided to do the next best thing…make it for a biblical purpose.
Respectfully,
jpaul1953
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theogrit
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LOL, I don’t exactly know Hisalone’s background, but Dicken’s Ebenezer Scrooge was indeed a caricature of the Protestant English backlash against Christmas and the worthy Puritan values which helped shape America as a ‘Christian nation’. I’m sure you’re aware the earliest American colonies banned Christmas, and not entirely for whatever pagan or Catholic roots were associated with the day, but as practicably expedient to holy living. In the dearth of Roman Catholic influences to holy observance of Christmas in Britain and America, observances of the day were entirely “after such a manner as is highly dishonorable to the name of Christ” (Puritan, Increase Mather), with few observing the holiday in an holy manner, but rather with debauchery, destruction of property, reveling, public drunkenness, settings of fires, and such. The situation eventually became so desperate in America that the government stepped in to tame the day toward more familial comportment, inventing (or adapting) Santa Claus for the purpose, and later using similar tactics to tame Hallowe’en.
The Christian asceticism that originally eschewed Christmas might actually find some familial favour among ascetic Catholics. To be gay and carefree was not a trait many in Britain and America could afford in the erstwhile hardships forging a Protestant work ethic and such freedoms as availing Christians of the Scriptures in their native tongue. And particularly, for good or bad amidst persecutions of Puritans, Catholics, Indians, or others, America may owe its very independence to diligently prosecuting its religious fervour away from Christmas observance. As said, early America, though stoutly Christian, did not observe Christmas, not even through the American revolutionary period. After a series of lost battles and retreats, with his men in dire straits and their enlistment coming to a close, General George Washington and the idea that was America was on the brink of disaster in the winter of 1776, when on December 25 he boldly crossed the Delaware River into Trenton, New Jersey. The surprise attack, meant to retrieve provisions they sorely needed for winter, caught the German Hessian mercenaries in a stupor from Christmas drunkenness. The Hessian forces were the spearhead of a British gathering meant to deal the final death-blow to American revolution by overrunning Philadelphia and decisively extinguishing rebellious designs. However, because the American forces did not observe Christmas, they gained Trenton and the turn in the war, to eventually establish independence.
I don’t recount this to establish some justification for Christmas non-observance, but to stimulate that Scrooge, even as vicious caricature, is quite a bit more complex and worthwhile than first imagined. And the alternative, the anti-Scrooge, is not necessarily the Catholic Christian we might hope for, but in some consideration a drunken and riotous profligate as much in need of either Catholic or Puritan piety and redemption as some might imagine Scrooge to be.
I may not celebrate Christmas, but I do publicly and gregariously honour Christ’s incarnation, on the Christian Sabbath (and every day in both my heart and outward life), as did the Apostles; and I honour the Church’s aim at redeeming human culture to the captivity of true freedom in Christ, whether by spirit, ritual, or both.
:hug1:
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Bill_Pick
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Hisalone, I was not at Jesus birth so I do not know if this is right or wrong, but we have a date and the 25 works for me and all other Christian,If the 25 does not work for you,you can pick another date try the 16 of June or any outher y ou like say 12,17,23, or you can get another date just pick a date but the Christians are staying with the 25,BTW hope you had a good thanksgive
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theogrit
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…or maybe April 17, 5BC. :yup:
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dianaiad
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Nope, your English is precise and accurate.
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Sword_Brethren
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EWTN’s Fr. Mitch Pacwa has been to Jerusalem many times and he stated that sheep are in Jerusalems fields in December.
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theogrit
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They’re just not very happy about it.
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Tantum_ergo
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Hisalone might not realize that climate changes. . .
For example, in the 11th and 12 centuries the climate in Britain was warmer than the current climate by some degree. Crops associated with the Mediterranean such as wine grapes were grown in England in those years. When the Vikings were settling Iceland and Greenland in the 900s and 1000s the areas were more fertile as the climate was milder then. One of the reasons there were Viking raids in the later times was that the climate grew harsher and the raiders went from conquest of those lands to conquest of places that already had what they wanted (food, clothing, women).
In the 1600s through the 1800s there was in Britain what is known as the “Little Ice Age” where the climate grew noticeably colder than the previous years.
That somebody writing of Jerusalem in say AD 1850 that there were no sheep in the fields in December could do so because of many factors, from the fact that in that particular year it was colder and the sheep were put to shelter earlier, to the fact that it might have become the cultural practice to stop putting out sheep. Or there might have been fewer sheep due to anything from foot rot (this can cause widespread decimation of a herd and is very contagious), to economic crises, aftereffects of war, famine, etc.
For example, in the 11th and 12 centuries the climate in Britain was warmer than the current climate by some degree. Crops associated with the Mediterranean such as wine grapes were grown in England in those years. When the Vikings were settling Iceland and Greenland in the 900s and 1000s the areas were more fertile as the climate was milder then. One of the reasons there were Viking raids in the later times was that the climate grew harsher and the raiders went from conquest of those lands to conquest of places that already had what they wanted (food, clothing, women).
In the 1600s through the 1800s there was in Britain what is known as the “Little Ice Age” where the climate grew noticeably colder than the previous years.
That somebody writing of Jerusalem in say AD 1850 that there were no sheep in the fields in December could do so because of many factors, from the fact that in that particular year it was colder and the sheep were put to shelter earlier, to the fact that it might have become the cultural practice to stop putting out sheep. Or there might have been fewer sheep due to anything from foot rot (this can cause widespread decimation of a herd and is very contagious), to economic crises, aftereffects of war, famine, etc.
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Love_is_Patient
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Non-Christians find Christians arrogant for saying that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Is it arrogant for Christians to claim that Jesus is the only way? Of course not - because it’s true.
If the Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from error, then it is not arrogant to proclaim that truth, any more than it is to say that Jesus was born of a virgin.
Love is Patient
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dianaiad
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They are probably happier about it then than they are in July, when it’s hot and humid. (Of course, ‘hot’ is a relative term. 80 degrees doesn’t sound that hot to me–I’m used to 110 degree summers, but then Bethlehem is also very humid–60%. I’m used to, well…13%.)They’re just not very happy about it.
It doesn’t get that cold in the winters there, either…hardly ever below freezing and mostly in the 40’s and 50’s (farenheit, guys…) Rains a lot, though. Over 27 inches of rain a year?
For some reason I always thought that Bethlehem had a climate rather like the one I live in. It actually sounds a little like paradise.
At any rate, I can see sheep out in the middle of winter, no problem. Why not? Idaho sheep are out in THEIR winters, and there we are talking about 33 degree weather, too.
Thirty three degrees below zero.
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Hisalone
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We are not affiliated with any denomination. We are independent and you are welcome at anytime. You are confused because you might not understand how a nonDenom is started and how it operates.
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Hisalone
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We have Jesus as the source of that belief.Non-Christians find Christians arrogant for saying that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Is it arrogant for Christians to claim that Jesus is the only way? Of course not - because it’s true.
If the Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from error, then it is not arrogant to proclaim that truth, any more than it is to say that Jesus was born of a virgin.
Your source is much more suspect.
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jmcrae
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Which is equally random, and hasn’t got any metaphysical significance.
I still say, the fact that December 25th is exactly nine months after March 25th, which has been celebrated as the Annunciation (Christ’s conception) from long before the Christmas celebration came along, is as good a reason as any to have Christmas on December 25th. At least, I think they were aware back then that pregnancies typically take about nine months.
I also like that December 25th is just after the Winter Solstice, thus putting St. John the Baptist just after the Summer Solstice, thus causing the prophecy to come true: “I shall decrease, and he shall increase.”
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jmcrae
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Our source is Jesus. He said to Peter, our first Pope, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail against you.” Was Jesus lying to St. Peter?
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graceandglory
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Thanks for the link, I didnt know I was going to have to read a book.
So early Christians never celebrated Christs birth.
We celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th because of tradition.
This tradition did not come from the apostles.
**How many other “traditions” practiced in Catholicsm are not apostolic???/**QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure that the TRINITY is post-apostolic doctrine. You okay with that one?
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Tantum_ergo
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Why, I wonder, does Hisalone state that the early Christians 'never celebrated Christ’s birth?"
Was he/she there?
We have very little writing (a lot of oral tradition but His stubbornly refuses to accept **that) **from the 'early Christians. Probably because a lot of them were too busy actually living Christ’s gospel and preaching (not writing, preaching) that gospel (not to mention most of them were not literate anyway). So just because we don’t have the planner/calendar from, say, Prisca and Aquila, with things like: 10 July, get-together with Peter and James; 18 September, fund raiser for Paul, 25 December, big Christmas party, remind everybody with last name A through K to bring main course and L through Z to bring dessert --doesn’t mean that the holy day itself was not celebrated, ever. . .
Was he/she there?
We have very little writing (a lot of oral tradition but His stubbornly refuses to accept **that) **from the 'early Christians. Probably because a lot of them were too busy actually living Christ’s gospel and preaching (not writing, preaching) that gospel (not to mention most of them were not literate anyway). So just because we don’t have the planner/calendar from, say, Prisca and Aquila, with things like: 10 July, get-together with Peter and James; 18 September, fund raiser for Paul, 25 December, big Christmas party, remind everybody with last name A through K to bring main course and L through Z to bring dessert --doesn’t mean that the holy day itself was not celebrated, ever. . .
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