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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Ken Collins’ website was a big part of my journey across the Tiber. Personally, I think he’s a closet Orthodox.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
I have been visiting his website for years and have noticed that as he has expanded and updated his site, he sounds more and more like he has Orthodox leanings. I have often wondered what his church services are like. He seems to have an extensive knowledge of Church history, tradition, the Bible, and I believe he knows Greek. And he doesn’t appear to be a sola scriptura adherent. His site is very informative.Ken Collins’ website was a big part of my journey across the Tiber. Personally, I think he’s a closet Orthodox.
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Harpazo
Guest
I’m sure I’ll be catching heck for saying this, but I just don’t understand why Protestant clergy would wear clericals. The meaning behind it is in the color of the clothing. The black stands for death to ourselves, and giving up everything to be a leader of a Christian community. Generally, Protestant clergy are hardly celibate and are not usually required to give up things such as marriage. I don’t understand why they would wear it.
Of course I know I will hear that they are “just as much entitled to wear it as Catholics.” I don’t mean to offend, I just don’t see Protestant clergy as being made to sacrifice as much as a Catholic or Orthodox clergyman would.
Pace e Bene
Andrew
Of course I know I will hear that they are “just as much entitled to wear it as Catholics.” I don’t mean to offend, I just don’t see Protestant clergy as being made to sacrifice as much as a Catholic or Orthodox clergyman would.
Pace e Bene
Andrew
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
I understand what you’re saying, but…Orthodox clergy are not required to be celibate, either. For that matter it is a practice in the Catholic Church and not a dogma. His point is that if you are a minister, you should dress like one.
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anamchara
Guest
It is good. I’ve read it before. A friend sent it to me as they are using it in thier church to get thier younger pastor to wear his Clericals. He sometimes doesn’t and it’s upsetting many. It’s a Presbyterain USA church, we used to go there. It would be really odd for a pastor not to wear his clericals.
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anamchara
Guest
Well being raised in the Protestant faith, I have to disagree with you. They do sacrifice a great deal. It may not be marriage or remaining celibate but they still become married to the church in a sense. They often have to give up a great deal of thier family time much like a doctor does or anyone in a vocation such as this. Our old pastor worked long hours. The wife has to sacrifice as well. You have to be the kind of women that is also married to the church. Spend a week with our old pastor and you would change your tune on that score my friend.
As a Protestant, I never saw a pastor without his clericals on. It would have been very odd.
my thinking was always, I want this man to appear reverant and scholary because he is! Not looking like he is trying to sell me a car in a suit.
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johnnykins
Guest
A better way to put it is that “Orthodox PRIESTS are required to be celibate if they have been ordained before being married or if they are subsequently widowed” Orthodox bishops are required to be celibate and any unmarried priest (for what ever reason) may not marry.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Yep - that’s what I was thinking in my head and my fingers said something else!
Thanks for clarifying for me. 
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drafdog
Guest
“Clericals” come in a variety of forms and colors. I have seen the traditional black, white and grey and occasionally a dark blue. But the most colorful “clericals” are Scottish. The Scots have a tartan pattern especially for the clergy so that they would be distinguishable on the field of battle lest anyone think the man belonged to the other clan. I knew an Episcopelian priest who wore a waistcoat made of the clerical tartan.
Matthew
Matthew
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jjoelness
Guest
I am a protestant seminarian and I am a bit taken back when you say protestant clergy do not “die to self.” To take one example, we go to 4 years of college, 4 years of seminary all on our own expense to make 20-30k a year working 60-80 hours a week. We make ourselves available to parishioners, visit the sick, lead our parishes just the same as Catholic priests.
Also celibacy is a disciple not a necessity even in the Roman Catholic church. Many Orthodox priests are married.
Whats the other option we have - to wear a suit and tie? I speak for myself here: I am not in the “business” of church.
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Lepanto
Guest
Nice to see one of my old threads resurrected.
I don’t think that Harpazo meant any offense. In Catholic (and Orthodox) theology, the sacrament of holy orders (ordination) confers an indelible mark on the soul, like at baptism and confirmation. A man who is ordained undergoes an ontological change and becomes an alter Christus (another Christ) – hence the language of dying to oneself.
All of the things that you mention – years of study, long hours, low pay – are important, but in and of themselves they do not connote an ontological change any more than does clerical clothing. Many non-religious jobs involve years of study, long hours, and low pay.
“Traditional” Protestant theology from the very beginning (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et. al.) has denied the sacramentality of ordination and hence any ontological change. Therefore, Protestant ministers can be “hired and fired” like any other employee.
Both Catholic and Protestant theology agree in the universal priesthood of the baptized. They also agree that Protestant ministers and non-ministers are not ontologically changed, although some Protestant denominations use the word “ordained.”
However, whereas Catholic theology says that the ordained (bishops, priests, and deacons) are different from the laity not only in degree but also in essence, Protestant theology says that the difference between ministers and the other people is merely in degree. Therefore, both Catholic and Protestant theology would say that Protestant ministers, in the end, are lay people and hence are not ontologically changed.
Note: given that there are tens of thousands of Protestant denominations today, some Protestants within some denominations might have different views. However, a reading of the original reformers will bear out what I have written regarding their rejection of ontological change and any real distinction between the ordained and the laity.
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jjoelness
Guest
I can only speak to my denomination and my own theology (not all Protestants). Ordination does change the essence of the person and they are marked for the ministry. It is a change that goes through all time. Congregations do not “hire and fire” as you put it. Congregations may call or dismiss their ministers but this act is not an ordination or “un-ordination.”Nice to see one of my old threads resurrected.
I don’t think that Harpazo meant any offense. In Catholic (and Orthodox) theology, the sacrament of holy orders (ordination) confers an indelible mark on the soul, like at baptism and confirmation. A man who is ordained undergoes an ontological change and becomes an alter Christus (another Christ) – hence the language of dying to oneself.
All of the things that you mention – years of study, long hours, low pay – are important, but in and of themselves they do not connote an ontological change any more than does clerical clothing. Many non-religious jobs involve years of study, long hours, and low pay.
“Traditional” Protestant theology from the very beginning (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et. al.) has denied the sacramentality of ordination and hence any ontological change. Therefore, Protestant ministers can be “hired and fired” like any other employee.
Both Catholic and Protestant theology agree in the universal priesthood of the baptized. They also agree that Protestant ministers and non-ministers are not ontologically changed, although some Protestant denominations use the word “ordained.”
However, whereas Catholic theology says that the ordained (bishops, priests, and deacons) are different from the laity not only in degree but also in essence, Protestant theology says that the difference between ministers and the other people is merely in degree. Therefore, both Catholic and Protestant theology would say that Protestant ministers, in the end, are lay people and hence are not ontologically changed.
Note: given that there are tens of thousands of Protestant denominations today, some Protestants within some denominations might have different views. However, a reading of the original reformers will bear out what I have written regarding their rejection of ontological change and any real distinction between the ordained and the laity.
A minister is still ordained in the protestant church even after he leaves (or is “fired”) from a congregation.
The laity (whether they say so or not) hold that their ministers are different from themselves. They ask the ministers to pray at events, preside at funerals, weddings and baptisms, etc. Thus taking on a role that the laity do not.
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