Why couldn't have Mary died on the Cross?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Spooky7272
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Spooky7272

Guest
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
 
Mary was sinless BECAUSE of Christ’s death on the Cross. There are two ways to save a man from falling down a manhole. One is to pull him up after the fall. The other is to run over and step in front of him before he steps in. The later is the case with Mary. Grace had to work on her soul. It just did so in a preventive manner.

Hope that helps.
 
That’s a really weird one… I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before, but from a messed up theology it makes sense.

Sinlessness was not the only attribute that Jesus had in order to effect our salvation and I’d say that they have totally missed the boat on who Jesus is. It may be that they are just too simplistic in their thinking to even be able to have a meaningful conversation with them. I’m not saying that to be mean, but they really do lack a lot of knowlege as to who Christ is, and unless you have a lot of time to deal with this issue, then I’d say run…do not walk to the nearest door. I think I would…
Pax tecum,
 
Tell them that Jesus had just one small requirement…HE WAS GOD. That’s why he atoned for our sins, not because he was sinless himself. Because he was God. Mary was sinless because to give birth to the Lord Himself she would HAVE to have been. But on that line, she also helped to save us, in a sense, by saying “yes” to God’s plan and bringing His son into the world.
 
Because we sinned against an infinite God, we required an infinite sacrifice to atone for that sin. Mary was a creature, not infinite, so it was necessary for Jesus to die. Only God could make reparations for a sin against an infinite God.

I hope that makes sense. It’s getting late, and my power to express my thoughts is consequently decreasing.
 
If Christ had not died on the cross…Mary would not have been born sinless.

God is the creator of the dimension of time…He is not bound by it.

This is also why Jesus could transubstantiate the bread and wine BEFORE He was crucified.

It is also why we can go to mass everyday and make the claim that the SAME sacrifice made 2,000 years ago is truly present before us on the altar.
It is one sacrifice…not a “resacrifice”
 
It is said that Mary merited de congruo what Christ merited de condigno.

When Christ was crucified to atone for our sins in the perfect act of obedience capping his perfect life, offering his whole existence and infinite merit as God-Man to the Father for us…he, by virtue of his divinity, merited our redemption de condigno…that is, out of strict justice. As God it was DUE to him out of justice. So was the graces his human nature recieved from the beginning. God HAD to give them to it. Not just as a free gift, but because his human nature was united to his divine in a single Person and so was owed those graces as part of a Divine Person.

Mary merited our redemption de congruo, that is out of fittingness or mercy.

No one can merit their first grace de condigno, because only one who is in a state of grace and thus shares in Divine Life can merit anything. Only Christ in his Humanity merited his first grace de condigno because he was also God. But otherwise, how can you merit something in the first place when you need it to merit itself?

Niether can anyone merit their first grace de congruo, because all, even if given grace, have sinned or would have sinned.

God foresaw that even if he had given the graces he gave Mary (ie, an Immaculate Conception, the role as Mother of God, all the actual graces he gave her throughout her life) they still would have fallen!

It’s true. Though it was only by God’s grace that Mary didn’t sin…she was the only one who God really had as an option to choose (without destroying free will) because even if he had given all sorts of graces to other people, they still would have sinned.

In this way, Mary merited de congruo her own redemption by prevention as well as our redemption.

Out of strict justice, of course, God did not have to give Mary any grace…especially not the first grace or her immaculate conception…because you cannot merit any grace without first having the unmerited first grace…but by fittingness, seeing as she was the only one who even with extraordinary unmeritable (de condigno) help from God, could lead a sinless life.

Now obviously you cannot merit something de condigno by God foreseeing that IF you get it, then you will merit…because that is a logical closed circle. But de congruo, out of his mercy, you could theoretically. But only if you lived a sinless life if he gave you those gifts. And out of all possible histories, Mary was the only one who, even with great graces, could have lived a sinless life after the fall.

In this way, as God’s greatest creation, she merited for herself and us de congruo, what Christ merited de condigno. It was her foreseen cooperation with grace that allowed the savior to have a sinless mother and come into the world. And by being redeemed by prevention in her immaculate conception she was Christ’s most perfect act of salvation…redeeming her (by prevention) was the principal reason Christ came into the world…we were all secondary because even with the grace christ won…we still sin…but when Christ won de condigno his grace for Mary, he won what she had gotten de congruo: a perfect redemption.
 
I’m sure a good part of Mary did die on the cross with her Son.

Was it fashionable to crucify women in those days? Was it even legal?

Alan
 
But if by one man many were made sinners, couldn’t by one man many be made just? Why would it have to take God to function as the representative of mankind and offer atonement? Moses appeased God’s wrath against the Israelites many times; Phinehas saved them from a plague (Numbers 25; Psalm 106:30-31). Sure, they were sinners and thus could not make perfect propitiation, but why couldn’t a sinless man do it?
 
40.png
challenger:
But if by one man many were made sinners, couldn’t by one man many be made just? Why would it have to take God to function as the representative of mankind and offer atonement? Moses appeased God’s wrath against the Israelites many times; Phinehas saved them from a plague (Numbers 25; Psalm 106:30-31). Sure, they were sinners and thus could not make perfect propitiation, but why couldn’t a sinless man do it?
Click to expand...
I remember hearing that there was tribe somewhere (in the Indonesiand islands I think, but doesn’t really matter where) that this made perfect sense to. Because if a man of one tribe insulted a man of an other tribe, atonement had to be made by someone of the first tribe of the same status of the second tribe. So if a low status man insuted the chief of another tribe, the chief of the fiirst tribe had to make atonement to the insulted chief.
As man (Adam) insulted God by sinning, it had to be a man that made atonement, but as it was God that was insulted it had to be someone of the same status as God. But no man is Hence Jesus, as both man and God, was God’s brilliant solution to this problem.
Don’t know if that adds anything to the debate, but I think its a helpful way of looking at it.
 
40.png
challenger:
But if by one man many were made sinners, couldn’t by one man many be made just? Why would it have to take God to function as the representative of mankind and offer atonement? Moses appeased God’s wrath against the Israelites many times; Phinehas saved them from a plague (Numbers 25; Psalm 106:30-31). Sure, they were sinners and thus could not make perfect propitiation, but why couldn’t a sinless man do it?
Click to expand...
Scenario A : You go up to a random beggar in the street and punch his lights out, cops come, you get a night in a cell and a caution. Sinning against a beggar = one night in a cell.

Scenario B : Same against Mr Bush, cops come, kick the cr$p out of you, stick you in a high security prison, and you remain there for ages with a trial that’ll probably put you in jail for a few years.
Sinning against Mr Bush = 5 years in prison

Although you committed the same action, because one person was more important the actions required to pay for your sin changed. Lets move up to God’s level, he is an infinite being, unlike bush and the beggar who are finite beings. If you sin against an infinite being, how can you pay for your crime, certainly sacrificing a lamb will help, but thats a finite lamb. To appease God, an infinite lamb must be sacrificed, the Lamb of God, his Son. But, you cannot kill a God, therefore Jesus came in human form, to sacrifice himself FOR US, as an infinte being in a finite body, he could die, therefore making the sacrifice to pay for our sins.

Every man is finite, no matter how good they are, even a sinless man is still not good enough, because to say sorry with a lesser gift does not work with God. If you, for example steal Bill gates’ picture that his daughter drew and burn it, NO amount of money will make up for it, you cannot replace something that has infinite value to someone, just as God is infinite, to pay for our sins, the infinite sacrifice must be made otherwise its just not good enough.
 
He didn’t “pay” for our sins in the strict sense… but that other guy’s post made sense I guess. It’s too late to be thinking : )
 
What denomination is this?
Her beliefs are simply not scriptural.
Tell her to read the New Testament instead of the national enquirer. 😉
Because Jesus is eternal God, who unites all of us (including Mary) to Himself in His death, burial, and resurrection.
We died with Him !! (It is really true!!! )
We are risen with Christ!! (It is really true!!! )
We live with Him !! (It is really true!!! )
Mary can’t & couldn’t do any of that. Mary’s continued life is centred on Jesus: the blessed fruit of her womb, Her Saviour, her son.
from the Protestant NIV: Colossians 2:

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

BTW, protestants can poorly teach their people too. so it is best to not characterize her apparent lack of knowledge as a general characteristic. (Personally, I thought it an evangelistic ploy on her part to attack what she sees as the over veneration of Mary.)

here’s another passage: from Romans5
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

and from this we see how the obedience of Faith is related to the eternal sacrifice of the living Saviour generously pours out His Grace into our lives.
His Mercy and Grace is freely poured into our lives by the Holy Spirit through a life of walking with God & through the means of grace that He has appointed for us in that walk of obedient faith.
That free grace gives us hope. and her too. That is why the Savior really needed to be God
wayne
 
Simple. Mary could not defeat death, only God could do that.

John
 
40.png
Lorarose:
If Christ had not died on the cross…Mary would not have been born sinless.
Click to expand...
And Christ could not have been born God without Mary being sinless. That’s wierd. My brain hurts trying to work that one out.

It doesn’t work logically. I understand Jesus is outside of time, so we can’t think of chronological sequence, but there is a logical sequence at work here.

Christ had to be born from someone sinless.
Someone sinless could only exist if Christ was born.

Logically one must have been first, Christ’s birth or Mary’s sinlessness.

Even God can’t do the logically nonsensical, like making a square circle.
 
40.png
Spooky7272:
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
Click to expand...
If that was the case, God could have sent an angel to die on the cross instead of Himself.

The Angels of Heaven are completely sinless.

And the fact is, anyone can die on a Cross, only God could raise Himself from the dead.
 
I think the main problem with the question is that it misunderstands the doctrines regarding Mary. Mary’s sinlessness was due to Christ’s death on the cross. Mary was sinless by the Grace of God. All Grace is recieved through the Passion and Resurection of Christ.

As Brendan said, it takes more than sinlessness to save us. Otherwise God could have sent an angel. As John1 says, Christ is Life itself. Christ was the only one who could die on the cross and be resurected.
 
Thessalonian nailed it with the first answer.

St. Anselm, in his defense of the incarnation, makes 2 points:
  1. Humanity must be redeemed by a human, otherwise the graces of redemption have no jurisdiction over him.
  2. Humanity must be redeemed by God, because humanity owes its redeemer all honor, glory, and service. It would be inappropriate for man to be subjected to one other than his creator as a result of salvation.
Therefore humanity’s redeemer, Christ, must be both man and God.

The point I’m getting at is #2 with respect to this question. Even if Mary’s sinlessness wasn’t already a direct result of Christ’s saving act, she even STILL couldn’t be our sole redeemer, because we would then owe our salvation to someone outside of Christ’s divine action.

However, this gets into some fun theology with regard to Mary as Co-Redemptrix, which is another conversation for another time.

Josh
 
40.png
Spooky7272:
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
Click to expand...
A part of Blessed Mary DID die on the cross! The part? Why Jesus Himself! Jesus came to us in part through Blessed Mary, His mother.
 
40.png
Magicsilence:
Scenario A : You go up to a random beggar in the street and punch his lights out, cops come, you get a night in a cell and a caution. Sinning against a beggar = one night in a cell.

Scenario B : Same against Mr Bush, cops come, kick the cr$p out of you, stick you in a high security prison, and you remain there for ages with a trial that’ll probably put you in jail for a few years.
Sinning against Mr Bush = 5 years in prison

Although you committed the same action, because one person was more important the actions required to pay for your sin changed. Lets move up to God’s level, he is an infinite being, unlike bush and the beggar who are finite beings. If you sin against an infinite being, how can you pay for your crime, certainly sacrificing a lamb will help, but thats a finite lamb. To appease God, an infinite lamb must be sacrificed, the Lamb of God, his Son. But, you cannot kill a God, therefore Jesus came in human form, to sacrifice himself FOR US, as an infinte being in a finite body, he could die, therefore making the sacrifice to pay for our sins.

Every man is finite, no matter how good they are, even a sinless man is still not good enough, because to say sorry with a lesser gift does not work with God. If you, for example steal Bill gates’ picture that his daughter drew and burn it, NO amount of money will make up for it, you cannot replace something that has infinite value to someone, just as God is infinite, to pay for our sins, the infinite sacrifice must be made otherwise its just not good enough.
Click to expand...
Great analogy. Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top