Why couldn't have Mary died on the Cross?

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Magicsilence:
Scenario A : You go up to a random beggar in the street and punch his lights out, cops come, you get a night in a cell and a caution. Sinning against a beggar = one night in a cell.

Scenario B : Same against Mr Bush, cops come, kick the cr$p out of you, stick you in a high security prison, and you remain there for ages with a trial that’ll probably put you in jail for a few years.
Sinning against Mr Bush = 5 years in prison

Although you committed the same action, because one person was more important the actions required to pay for your sin changed.
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What happened to the “all equal before the law” ? But I get your point.
 
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Brendan:
If that was the case, God could have sent an angel to die on the cross instead of Himself.

The Angels of Heaven are completely sinless.
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Interesting concept. What if God did send an angel to live as a human (the angel would have a human nature and and angel nature, like Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature).

Would the human/angel then be able to remain sinless? I doubt it.
 
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Angainor:
And Christ could not have been born God without Mary being sinless. That’s wierd. My brain hurts trying to work that one out.

It doesn’t work logically. I understand Jesus is outside of time, so we can’t think of chronological sequence, but there is a logical sequence at work here.

Christ had to be born from someone sinless.
Someone sinless could only exist if Christ was born.

Logically one must have been first, Christ’s birth or Mary’s sinlessness.

Even God can’t do the logically nonsensical, like making a square circle.
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I asked my favorite retired priest about that, and he said that Christ did save Mary from original sin by His death and resurrection, in advance. From our human time clock, her birth was before Christ’s saving action for her. Temporal sequencing of events apparently isn’t any big deal to God like it is with us.

It is logically nonsensical if your logic is based on a world view where time moves at a constant speed in a particular direction.

Alan
 
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Angainor:
Interesting concept. What if God did send an angel to live as a human (the angel would have a human nature and and angel nature, like Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature).

Would the human/angel then be able to remain sinless? I doubt it.
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It seems from your response that you’re suggesting that sin is human’s nature; it’s not. The angels in heaven have already passed through their trial and therefore they can’t sin anymore.

I think.
 
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Brendan:
If that was the case, God could have sent an angel to die on the cross instead of Himself.

The Angels of Heaven are completely sinless.

And the fact is, anyone can die on a Cross, only God could raise Himself from the dead.
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me:
Interesting concept. What if God did send an angel to live as a human (the angel would have a human nature and and angel nature, like Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature).

Would the human/angel then be able to remain sinless? I doubt it.
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mrS4ntA:
It seems from your response that you’re suggesting that sin is human’s nature; it’s not. The angels in heaven have already passed through their trial and therefore they can’t sin anymore.

I think.
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This is highly hypothetical. I don’t know if it is even worth thinking about. What I was trying to get at, is would a creature born both true man and true angel have [thread=8872]concupiscence[/thread]?
 
Thanks everyone for your response, it has been a tremendous help. As for my Protestant friend’s denom, I don’t know, she refuses to tell us (It’s a debate group on Yahoo). But all the other Prot’s joined in and agreed with her, this included Baptists and Calvinist. Again thanks everybody!

:blessyou:
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Tell them that Jesus had just one small requirement…HE WAS GOD. That’s why he atoned for our sins, not because he was sinless himself. Because he was God. Mary was sinless because to give birth to the Lord Himself she would HAVE to have been. But on that line, she also helped to save us, in a sense, by saying “yes” to God’s plan and bringing His son into the world.
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i don’t know how to do pictures or smilie things so

a great big clap of the hands for you!!
 
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Spooky7272:
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
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My understanding is this: it is because Jesus has both a human and a divine nature that he is able to save us from ourselves. Humans transgress against God, so the act of atonement had to be human. The fact that Jesus also has a divine nature means that his human act had infinite merit, thus being able to redeem everyone. Thus, our Savior needed to be more than sinless. He had to be both human and divine.
 
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Angainor:
And Christ could not have been born God without Mary being sinless.
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God can do all things. Mary could have been the world’s greatest sinner and Christ could have been born of her. Her state of sinlessness does not reflect on Christ any more the state of sinfulness of your parents reflect on you at birth.

Mary is recognized as sinless not because she bore Christ and it was a necessity, but as sinless because it was revealed by the angel (full of grace.etc. Luke Ch 1-2)

We also have no indication that there were not other people who were given this grace (immaculate conception) because it has only been revealed for Mary, Adam, and Eve.

We do know that being conceived immaculately does not guarentee a life without sin (Adam and Eve).

The assumption is also tied into God’s revelation of the sinlessness of Mary, but she is not the only one assumed (couple OT prophets). Were they sinless? or immacculately conceived? Don’t know. Not enough info. I’ll ask God when I have time (Provided I find myself in His presence some day).

The sinlessness of Jesus is irrelevant to our salvation. He COULD not sin. To sin is to go against the will of God, He was God. One cannot desire to do something against your own will, for it is the will that decides. I think for Jesus to sin would be a contradiction.

I agree with most of those above, someone with the Father’s dignity had to offer himself for the affront done to God in our sins. That would be the Son. Not some human. Even the angles (heavenly or infernal) don’t have the dignity of the Father. But that is what the Jahovah Witnesses believe, Jesus was not a man, not God but an angel in human form.
 
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thessalonian:
Mary was sinless BECAUSE of Christ’s death on the Cross. There are two ways to save a man from falling down a manhole. One is to pull him up after the fall. The other is to run over and step in front of him before he steps in. The later is the case with Mary. Grace had to work on her soul. It just did so in a preventive manner.

Hope that helps.
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That is a great way to think of it. I had heard this some years back and was trying to explain the Immaculate Conception to a friend and for the life of me, I just couldn’t remember how this explanation worked.

Thanks
 
A huge part of the crucifixion is the resurrection. Without the ressurection there would be no ressurection for us. Christ is the giver of life. He is life and light. He created life. His ressurection came from his nature as God and the giver of life. It did not come from his sinlessness.
 
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Spooky7272:
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
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Fairly moronic question, so the answer should be at the same level:

Because she witnessed Christ do it FIRST - therefore she didn’t need to!

Phil
 
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Spooky7272:
A Protestant asked me: “If Mary was sinless, then why didn’t she die on the Cross” I pointed out that Mary wasn’t God. It turns out that this Protestant (and others) believe that the ony requirement Jesus needed to atone for our sins was to be sinless. How do I answer to this? Thanks!
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Because she would not have been able to be Our Mediator.​

Christ is the perfect Mediator between God and man, because He knows the Mind of God & and the hearts of men - He is experienced in both, at first-hand.

Moreover, He was the High Priest & Sacrifice.

And the Last Adam

And is both the Messianic King & Servant of JHWH.

And He is “the first-born from the dead”. His Resurrection, which is, after all, that of the man Who is God, is the life and cause and motive of our own: so He “had to” be more than we are - more than mortal, more than mere man. A mere Saint is not enough to be all this.

Only One Who is exalted in Glory at the right hand of the Father on high, can humble Himself to the immeasurable shame and disgrace of being crucified for sinful men - only God can span the distance between the utmost height of Divine Glory and the depths of the world of the dead: Jesus did this. Mary, being a creature, cannot fill or span this gap. She is very holy, but she is not the Holy One of God: her Son is. He is sheer Holiness in Person - she is holy by His gift.

His Love for us, is to be measured by the greatness of the difference between Who He is by nature, and what He became for us by grace. St.Paul puts it best:
  • Philippians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
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Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
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Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
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Philippians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
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Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
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Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is why sinlessness is not enough. Only One Who was that generous and gracious, could show us what the Father is really like, and how vast the love of God really is.
So mere sinlessness does not even begin to be sufficient for what He was sent into the world to do. ##
 
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