Why Create Beings that Will Do Evil

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This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
 
Why does God allow it to happen? How can he not if he gave us free will? What kind of freedom to love and serve would it be if every time we messed up God stepped in and changed our minds? We wouldn’t be free agents, we’d be puppets or worse, slaves. God desires our free service given out of love not out of servile fear.

In marriage, we trust our spouse to uphold his/her marriage vows out of love, do we not? And because they made a vow–to which they freely gave their consent. It is the same with God. We willingly serve him in love, not wanting to displease our beloved. If we do err and sin, especially if we do it deliberately, that was our decision, and hurts the One who loved us and created us.
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
There are four different answers that I have heard given that at least give a possible reason. Some of them, I think, are more likely than others.
  1. Existence in hell, as bad as it is, is better alternative to non-existence.
  2. Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good.
  3. God needs to create those beings because through them and their actions, more people go to heaven than are lost to hell. (Judas?)
4.God can’t actually know our choices until he creates us.

The real answer is probably some mix of these.
 
I find it odd God did not know what Satan was going to do when he created him, as well as the other 1/3 of the angels, who willingly choose to follow Satan. God looked at everything he had created and said it is all good, I assume this included Satan and his angels too. Was Satans rebellion a surprise to God? Was God surprised when all the other angels choose Satan over God?

Even more surprising, following this rebellion, one would think God would destroy Satan and his followers… NOPE, Satan was given more authority! a domain to call his home for him and his angels/demons (hell), supernatural powers similar to what God has, the ability to influence all mankind, pretty close to being immortal, (Satan AND the other angels got this) GEEZ, this was his punishment for rebelling against God?LOL
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
Because it’s good. The goodness is in the creation itself.

Think about it this way:

God creates creatures (good).
God grants free will (good).
A creature uses free will to do evil (not good).

Two of those sentences have God as the subject, one does not.
 
I find it odd God did not know what Satan was going to do when he created him, as well as the other 1/3 of the angels, who willingly choose to follow Satan.
Hi Mikekle,

That’s actually not true. God DID know that Satan was going to rebel. God is all knowing.

But simply because God KNEW does not mean that God INTENDED for Satan to rebel. The rebellion was Satan’s free choice.

Hope that helps!
 
There are four different answers that I have heard given that at least give a possible reason. Some of them, I think, are more likely than others.
  1. Existence in hell, as bad as it is, is better alternative to non-existence.
I’ve heard this from reliable sources, as well. Having given us life, sentience, and free will God will not rob us of them if we decide to reject him.
  1. Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good.
I can’t see that. Free will certainly is good, but the highest good? And “in and of itself?” No. The highest good is God himself who gave us free will, so I can’t see that statement as true.
  1. God needs to create those beings because through them and their actions, more people go to heaven than are lost to hell. (Judas?)
I can’t agree as stated. God doesn’t create anyone so they will grossly sin and so be an example of what could happen if we sin. He created mankind good, but we fell and so we pay the consequences of the fall: Our natures were corrupted, our intellect was darkened, and our will to do good weakened.
4.God can’t actually know our choices until he creates us.
No. God exists outside time and space, which are part of his creation. He knows what we will do, but he ever hopes we will do right instead of wrong. This is why our salvation cannot be absolutely assured until we die–because minute by minute we are deciding for God or against him in what we think, say, and do.
The real answer is probably some mix of these.
Not if anyone of them is not true. 😉
 
I find it odd God did not know what Satan was going to do when he created him, as well as the other 1/3 of the angels, who willingly choose to follow Satan. God looked at everything he had created and said it is all good, I assume this included Satan and his angels too. Was Satans rebellion a surprise to God? Was God surprised when all the other angels choose Satan over God?
Having been created the highest of all creation next to God himself, Lucifer had it all. But he decided, of his free will given to him by God that he would not serve God but only serve himself. Was this a surprise to God? No. But did God withhold life, intelligence and free will from Lucifer because he knew he would rebel? No. God saw and knew what depths of humility he himself would go to in order to repair the damage Satan and his minions would cause. It is part of the mystery of God’s plan–a plan that meant he himself would pay the worst price and take all the consequences upon himself in the person of Christ, his Son.
Even more surprising, following this rebellion, one would think God would destroy Satan and his followers… NOPE, Satan was given more authority! a domain to call his home for him and his angels/demons (hell), supernatural powers similar to what God has, the ability to influence all mankind, pretty close to being immortal, (Satan AND the other angels got this) GEEZ, this was his punishment for rebelling against God?LOL
From being the highest of the archangels to ruling a much smaller host of demons in hell? That’s better and a good thing? I don’t think so. At the end of time Satan and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Exactly what that means we cannot know, but it doesn’t sound all that wonderful to me. He will pay for all his mischief, but we have benefited from God’s mercy through it all, for out of this fall from grace we got our Blessed Redeemer and Savior who debased himself to the nth degree to rescue us from our own folly and all the wiles and traps of the devil.
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
The angels asked this question at the being of creation. I think only God knows. My reasoning is because he is love and he created us out of love and love can only come from freewill
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
I have always believed that he allows thing to happen to bring about a greater good
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
25Sep13…Try all you may, but you will NOT get inside the mind of God. If you could, you would be equal to God.

God created heaven and earth and all things.
 
This is a spinoff from another thread on here. But here is my questions. I get that God created us as good beings. I get that because we turned away from God we chose sin and that is what brings about evil. However, if God exists outside of time and space and knows that person is going to commit that evil, than why does he allow it to happen or create that person to begin with?

Thanks.
Because there’s a greater good in the creation of creatures in His image - and part of the features of being in His image is the existence of rational conscience that allows us to recognize wrong from right - but further than that, allows us to do our own free decisions on wheter we’re choosing a right or wrong decision, instead of restricting us to simply to what would be moral good or moral evil.

Besides, is it even possible to think on a benelovent God that doesn’t allow His creation to do the right decision on their own standards, or be even free to do what they really wished? His benevolence rests on our free will and if God hadn’t introduced the plan for salvation on His Covenant with men, the fact that we did good or evil would have no proper consequences in how our lives would turn out as our lives always ended up in Hell (where, in my personal belief, is where souls just die after a period of time because of the lack of connection with the God that gives us Life), as the writer of the Book of Ecclesiastes suggested to some extent. Our salvation granted by Christ rests on our completley free-willing decision to receive God’s grace and relinquish our completley-free liberty to sin and go instead for a life-long quest of becoming fully virtuous, intrinsically morally good and holy.

If God didn’t grant us our personal liberty of doing evil, I don’t I’d call Him all-loving to us, in my honest opinion. 👍
 
N0X3x;11236989 said:
2. Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good.
I can’t see that. Free will certainly is good, but the highest good? And “in and of itself?” No. The highest good is God himself who gave us free will, so I can’t see that statement as true.

I think if you clarify it by saying that “Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good God has given us,” it states the position more clearly.

If we are not free to do evil, we cannot freely accept, follow, and love God either.

–Jen
 
There was one episode of StarTrek, the Next Generation where this one supposedly omnipotent, immortal lifeform loved a human. She tried to force him to love her. He told her he didn’t love her! He told her that she couldn’t force him to love her. She said something like, “Can’t I?” and forced him to love her. He kissed her, but she knew it was only because she had forced him!

She stopped, and said, “You’re right!”

Love has to be free. If it’s coerced, is it even love? There has to be a choice!

As to why God permits evil, that is harder to understand. Why would he submit his only beloved son to torture and death? Also, keep in mind, God the Father is IN God the Son! So, it was as if God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all in that sacrifice, simultaneously! Why would God also do that to himself?!
 
There was one episode of StarTrek, the Next Generation where this one supposedly omnipotent, immortal lifeform loved a human. She tried to force him to love her. He told her he didn’t love her! He told her that she couldn’t force him to love her. She said something like, “Can’t I?” and forced him to love her. He kissed her, but she knew it was only because she had forced him!

She stopped, and said, “You’re right!”

Love has to be free. If it’s coerced, is it even love? There has to be a choice!
I remember that episode. Yes, that is the lesson she learned, as well as not denying who she was–a very powerful being with the ability to do great good or great evil. Actually, we humans are also very powerful beings with the ability to do great good or great evil. I wonder how many of us think of it that way? ;-
As to why God permits evil, that is harder to understand. Why would he submit his only beloved son to torture and death? Also, keep in mind, God the Father is IN God the Son! So, it was as if God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all in that sacrifice, simultaneously! Why would God also do that to himself?!
There’s only one answer–his ineffable love.
 
In my opinion this is THE question. I’d like to work off of these suggestions:
  1. Existence in hell, as bad as it is, is better alternative to non-existence.
  1. Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good.
  1. God needs to create those beings because through them and their actions, more people go to heaven than are lost to hell. (Judas?)
4.God can’t actually know our choices until he creates us.
  1. This just seems wrong on its face. Why would it be better for those who lead others to sin to be “tossed into the sea with a millstone around their necks?” Does the lake of unquenchable fire sound better than non-existence? Even if I lived for a trillion years and filled this life with every imaginable kind of pleasure but at the end I earned a sentence to hell for eternity I would rather simply never have existed. Hell is a place of unimaginable suffering and separation from God, while a state of non-existence is simply nothingness. It scores a “zero” in terms of goodness, while hell scores a negative infinity in my opinion.
  2. I’d like to leave this one aside. A discussion of this can be quite complicated and I think this one is a dead end regarding this particular question.
  3. I doubt this very much. Although this is NOT an official doctrine or dogma of the church (I’m referencing Molinism), it only seems reasonable to believe that God’s omniscience includes knowing what would have* or would happen as well as what does or will happen. In fact, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is based upon this kind of reasoning, in my opinion (God knew that Mary would say “yes” and Jesus would be born, live, and die or else the grace of his saving death could not possibly have been applied to Mary at the moment of her own conception!)
I think some version of #3 is our winner. However, I would say that the justification for allowing the creation of people God has always and will always know are damned is not that they are a minority (although that could be true) but rather because our sexual and reproductive choices are also under the domain of our operative free will. In other words, we really do participate as creators with God in terms of human reproduction. Although God creates the soul, our free actions determine who is created in some fundamental way. Although God has always and will always know that some of our children will choose sin, death, and hell, he nonetheless allows our human reproductive abilities to operate freely whether two wills are effective (love) or one (rape) or neither (accident of nature, etc). God will not abridge our will or the operation of nature in this context, and therefore some people are born although God has always and will always know that they are ultimately doomed.

However, this explanation does nothing to explain why God would willingly create Lucifer, knowing who he would become and the evil and pain that would flow from his will. It does seem like God could have created an angel named “Billy” instead of Lucifer, knowing that “Billy” would freely choose virtue and good rather sin an separation. In fact, I would wager that there is an infinity of creatures God has NOT created (for whatever reason). So, it makes me question: why Satan? Was Satan REALLY the best choice? Knowingly rejecting an infinite diversity of possible creatures, God chose to create Lucifer! That seems ridiculous!

The only answer I can come up with is what Job (42:2-3) says “I know that thou canst do all things, and no thought is hid from thee. Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have spoken unwisely, and things that above measure exceeded my knowledge.”

St. Anselm wrote an entire book about this same question, and comes to the conclusion that we simply cannot figure out the answer, and we must have faith. I hope that I am not being intellectually lazy in my desire to agree!*
 
There are four different answers that I have heard given that at least give a possible reason. Some of them, I think, are more likely than others.
  1. Existence in hell, as bad as it is, is better alternative to non-existence.
  2. Free-will, in and of itself, is the highest good.
  3. God needs to create those beings because through them and their actions, more people go to heaven than are lost to hell. (Judas?)
4.God can’t actually know our choices until he creates us.

The real answer is probably some mix of these.
  1. Job cursed the day he was born, wishing to have been still-born, and he had not even reached Hell.
  2. I thought God was the highest Good, which is why we seek to be united to him in his presence in the resurrection
  3. Jesus: Wide the way to distruction and many follow it; narrow the gate to life and few find it.
  4. The counter to this is very extensive but he does know, as he knew that Peter would deny him 3 times prior to the cock crow. He also knew Peter would repent and told him to strengthen the brethren after he returned.
Anyway, these don’t help the questioner “desire and delight in doing good and shunning evil”, nor do they help with a certainty of confidence that despair is not a valid outlook.

John Martin
 
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