Why create the world at all?

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razredge

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Hi - I’m a long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a question that I haven’t been able to think or find and answer to - and normally when encountering unaddressed/open theological problems I can usually formulate something that makes sense to me - so am putting it out there:

If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels?
 
razredge said:
If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels?
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Beautiful question. Must be at the heart of all spiritual enquiry.

I am no catechist, nor philosopher. An all creating God could have made us as he wished. But he gave us free-will. We are free to love God in his creation, or to turn our backs. Without that choice, is there any such thing as love? If we were plonked into heaven without choice, could we yearn to be in God’s presence? Could we know God? Could we love? God is, above all, Love.

There is reciprocity too: we are saved by the infinite loving mercy of the Creator, not held in His presence as a foregone conclusion.

The choice to love is always at hand.

“He drinks from the stream by the wayside,
And therefore he lifts up his head.”

Columba.
 
Columba_Tom said:
Beautiful question. Must be at the heart of all spiritual enquiry.

I am no catechist, nor philosopher. An all creating God could have made us as he wished. But he gave us free-will. We are free to love God in his creation, or to turn our backs. Without that choice, is there any such thing as love? If we were plonked into heaven without choice, could we yearn to be in God’s presence? Could we know God? Could we love? God is, above all, Love.

There is reciprocity too: we are saved by the infinite loving mercy of the Creator, not held in His presence as a foregone conclusion.

The choice to love is always at hand.

“He drinks from the stream by the wayside,
And therefore he lifts up his head.”

Columba.
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Yes, I originally thought it might be related to free will.

Unfortunately, the problem with that line of reasoning is that the angels wouldn’t seem to have free will then and the souls in heaven wouldn’t either as well (since you don’t seem to be able to sin in heaven).

So is free will something we only have here on earth? That could make sense in a way - and it would explain the eternity of hell - if people were only allowed to choose or reject God in this life then they would be stuck with the consequences for eternity
 
That’s a good question. Probably without a great answer as it’s not explicitly stated in scripture. The thing is though. That for some reason unknown to us. He created us and the world.

So here is my stab at it. I have no idea if it’s correct or not.

I imagine that God, who transcends time and space, remember; knew that he loved us and all of his creation, before he even created us. Because of that love for us came the desire and thus we were willed into creation.

Like I said I don’t know if that is right. I’ve seen a lot of questions similar to this. Why God would create us knowing we would sin, and everything. I imagine that God just simply loved us unconditionally despite our flaws and thus also created a means for us to restore our lives and love him back.
 
It could be that He wants us to choose to love Him rather than just love Him already.

Remember, we were supposed to be living in a better world but Adam & Eve put an end to that.

Free will.
Free to choose to love Him.

❤️❤️❤️
 
In Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict says that God is heaven. IOW, He‘s the source of eternal happiness. The Church teaches that man was created in a state of goodness, harmony, integrity, and happiness, knowing God in Eden in some immediate sense. And He gave man-and angels- the choice, essentially whether to choose Him or choose themselves.

The Catechism says man preferred himself to God, wanting to be like God, but apart from Him, separate from Him, without Him. Pride is at the heart of this separation, which is why scripture tells us that God opposes the proud and exalts the humble. So now we’re born in a condition which is unnatural for us, separated from God, the source of life, love, goodness, and happiness, and still preferring things that way-at least until we come to our senses, like the Prodigal, and begin to turn back to Him again, by means of His revelation and the help of His grace. We must come to realize our need for Him, and the beginning of this is faith, believing again in His very existence.

Man* was *in heaven-he just didn’t know how good he had it.
 
Responding to some of your points:

I wouldn’t say it’s quite the same problem as God creating us despite knowing we would sin. As that is sort of like saying you’re not going to have kids because you know they’ll misbehave and disobey you.

On the point of God wanting us to choose to love him rather than be forced to love him - I can see the logic there.
However the fact that the angels can choose to love or reject God despite being in heaven, creates problems for that line of reasoning.

Of course you could say that angels don’t exist as personal beings (and are only created by God to deliver messages and generally intervene in the created world). And that would seem to solve the problem.

However it leaves the issue of Satan and the demons unexplained - either you could hold they don’t exist (and so evil is simply the privation of good rather than an actual personified entity) or perhaps view Satan as in Jewish thought (eg as in Job) sent by God to tempt and challenge the faithful (rather than being evil)

Or there could be some other line of reasoning we haven’t thought of yet.
 
razredge said:
Hi - I’m a long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a question that I haven’t been able to think or find and answer to - and normally when encountering unaddressed/open theological problems I can usually formulate something that makes sense to me - so am putting it out there:

If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels?
Click to expand...
He did, It was called Paradise. We got kicked out for breaking the rules. In fact the only rule.
 
razredge

**If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels? **

BEEN THERE! DONE THAT! 👍
 
Charlemagne_II said:
razredge

**If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels? **

BEEN THERE! DONE THAT! 👍
Click to expand...
What do you mean? We were never created as angels in heaven are
 
I don’t get the whole ‘free will’ answer. I hear it a lot as an answer, but to me, it doesn’t answer the question.

And, I think that the angels had the ‘free will’ to choose to follow Satan or God, so the question still stands unanswered.

Why not create the world w/o the human condition? Before someone says, “Love.” I think we could love w/o the human experience/human condition.

Glennonite
 
I am not an apologetic AT ALL…but I’m willing to take a stab at it.

First, thanks for asking the question. My husband asks me all the time, and I’m hoping one day to have the answer so that he’ll remove that barrier and come Home…praying

But back to the question.

I think of my role as the parent to 6 children. I didn’t have to have children…but I did. Why? Because they are an expression of the love that I have for my husband. Maybe God wanted to share the goodness he created with us so that we could feel the joy he feels. Even though he knew that we were going to sin, it didn’t stop him because he loves us. He wanted us to feel His love…
 
For us to bask and ponder Gods Glorious creation - there would be no point to creation if there was nothing to be a witness to it.We are witnesses to Gods Glorious Creation and to bask in the Glory of the Universe - look out at the stars and the beauty of the earth and be in awe.
 
‘free will’ means a will that is free.
There is maximum free will in heaven and zero free will in hell.
Here on earth individuals are somewhere in between.
The more we sin, the more we loose free will; consider the addicts.

We don’t sin because we have free will. We sin because we fail to trust the love of God on us. I believe that saints are people who have cultivated trust in God until it became second nature for them to trust in God.
We fall many times when we don’t know how to walk yet. But once we know we don’t fall like that anylonger.
 
razredge said:
Hi - I’m a long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a question that I haven’t been able to think or find and answer to - and normally when encountering unaddressed/open theological problems I can usually formulate something that makes sense to me - so am putting it out there:

If heaven is preferable to our existence here on Earth - why did God bother creating the universe and not just create us in heaven like the angels?
Click to expand...
why did God create angels?If one can’t accept the fact that God is love and He wanted to share that love with whomever or whatever then their is no reason to explain anything about God.
 
Glennonite said:
I don’t get the whole ‘free will’ answer. I hear it a lot as an answer, but to me, it doesn’t answer the question.

And, I think that the angels had the ‘free will’ to choose to follow Satan or God, so the question still stands unanswered.

Why not create the world w/o the human condition? Before someone says, “Love.” I think we could love w/o the human experience/human condition.

Glennonite
Click to expand...
Yes, basically it seems to me that we have to choose from one of the explanations:
  1. angels don’t have free will (eg they are just manifested messengers of God), similarily demons are not intrinsically evil and are simply sent by God to tempt us (as presented in the book of Job). We’re on Earth to exercise our free will and choose to embrace or reject God (we’re unable to choose in the afterlife)
  2. Angels & demons don’t exist. We’re on Earth to exercise our free will and choose to embrace or reject God (we’re unable to choose in the afterlife)
  3. Angels/demons exist and have free will too (this would explain the Fall of Satan). Humans were created as second class citizens who have free will but must endure the suffering in this world unlike the angels.
heathernoel said:
I am not an apologetic AT ALL…but I’m willing to take a stab at it.

First, thanks for asking the question. My husband asks me all the time, and I’m hoping one day to have the answer so that he’ll remove that barrier and come Home…praying

But back to the question.

I think of my role as the parent to 6 children. I didn’t have to have children…but I did. Why? Because they are an expression of the love that I have for my husband. Maybe God wanted to share the goodness he created with us so that we could feel the joy he feels. Even though he knew that we were going to sin, it didn’t stop him because he loves us. He wanted us to feel His love…
Click to expand...
While I agree with you on that (and posted as much above) - it’s a bit different to what i’m asking, which is why God didn’t bother just creating us in heaven like the angels?
PeterGStanley said:
For us to bask and ponder Gods Glorious creation - there would be no point to creation if there was nothing to be a witness to it.We are witnesses to Gods Glorious Creation and to bask in the Glory of the Universe - look out at the stars and the beauty of the earth and be in awe.
Click to expand...
Well do you think persons in heaven are not in awe of creation? If anything i’d think they’d have more appreciation as they would see the mind of God etc.
 
Perhaps one of the ways God expresses His love is through the expression of creating; but not only in creating but also in self-sacrificing, which he revealed perfectly through Christ.
 
razredge said:
  1. angels don’t have free will (eg they are just manifested messengers of God), similarily demons are not intrinsically evil and are simply sent by God to tempt us (as presented in the book of Job). We’re on Earth to exercise our free will and choose to embrace or reject God (we’re unable to choose in the afterlife)
Click to expand...
There are a few verses from scripture that indicate that, while man was created a little lower than the angels, he’ll sit in judgment of them in the end, ending up higher. I think this world could be thought of as a school-a place of formation-to refine mans’ will so that we’ll use our wills wisely, rather than unwisely as our first parents did. And in this way God may be intending to bring forth, by some amount of grueling toil and struggle, a higher being yet, one greater than Adam & Eve, because, for one thing, they’ve gained the wisdom to always choose rightly.

So the Church calls the fall of man a “blessed fault”, because of the Redeemer it made necessary. The work of Redemption-a shared work, in Catholic teaching, between man and God which He nonetheless initiates, of course, is part of Gods continued work of creation, IMO.
 
fhansen said:
There are a few verses from scripture that indicate that, while man was created a little lower than the angels, he’ll sit in judgment of them in the end, ending up higher. I think this world could be thought of as a school-a place of formation-to refine mans’ will so that we’ll use our wills wisely, rather than unwisely as our first parents did. And in this way God may be intending to bring forth, by some amount of grueling toil and struggle, a higher being yet, one greater than Adam & Eve, because, for one thing, they’ve gained the wisdom to always choose rightly.

So the Church calls the fall of man a “blessed fault”, because of the Redeemer it made necessary. The work of Redemption-a shared work, in Catholic teaching, between man and God which He nonetheless initiates, of course, is part of Gods continued work of creation, IMO.
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So existence on Earth is preferable (or ‘better’) than existence in Heaven?
 
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