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fhansen
Guest
Existence on earth may be the only way to get to heaven-at least the mode of being God has in mind for man.
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Pieman333272
Guest
So we could choose to go to Heaven or not. In addition, earth was God’s original plan, which we screwed up. After Heaven, we will go back to earth in the ultimate fulfillment of his plan.
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razredge
Guest
Then why not just create us as angels?
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fhansen
Guest
It’s not a good question, I think. Why not create us as dogs? We’re humans. Angels are angels. Maybe I don’t want to be an angel.
He has different plans for different aspects of His creation.Aside from that I think we all sort of agree, whether consciously or not, that existence is good and something to be cherished-even if we like to complain about it. I suspect that the huge majority would opt to continue their existence if they suddenly had to choose, at this very moment, whether or not to have it permanently wiped out. So then we agree with God that existence is good, even in this messed up world-IOW that creation was worth it.
And I believe even further that humans already possess a hope residing within that’s really more than a hope; it’s a sense or vague perception that there should be –that there is-more to this life than what we see here and now-that there’s a purpose behind it all, that goodness and order ultimately reign so that, when we add to our desire for existence the promise of an eternal life of inexhaustible love and beatitude, a promise revealed through our faith, then this hope can be confirmed, and the supreme value of this life made known to such a degree that there’s little question that the relatively short spate of time spent in this world-this place of gestation for a birth into a much greater world- makes it all worth it.
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razredge
Guest
Well, simply stating angels are angels and humans are humans is just begging the question and doesn’t really help us find an answer.It’s not a good question, I think. Why not create us as dogs? We’re humans. Angels are angels. Maybe I don’t want to be an angel.
Aside from that I think we all sort of agree, whether consciously or not, that existence is good and something to be cherished-even if we like to complain about it. I suspect that the huge majority would opt to continue their existence if they suddenly had to choose, at this very moment, whether or not to have it permanently wiped out. So then we agree with God that existence is good, even in this messed up world-IOW that creation was worth it.
And I believe even further that humans already possess a hope residing within that’s really more than a hope; it’s a sense or vague perception that there should be –that there is-more to this life than what we see here and now-that there’s a purpose behind it all, that goodness and order ultimately reign so that, when we add to our desire for existence the promise of an eternal life of inexhaustible love and beatitude, a promise revealed through our faith, then this hope can be confirmed, and the supreme value of this life made known to such a degree that there’s little question that the relatively short spate of time spent in this world-this place of gestation for a birth into a much greater world- makes it all worth it.
How do you know you don’t want to be an angel? Been there, done that?
I definitely agree with you on the existence part. I think God created conscious beings other than himself in order to share the experience of existing.
But the problem remains, if life in heaven is superior to existence on Earth, why not just create us in heaven? It’s sort of like if a man went into a store and saw a certain product for sale at the same price as a similar product superior in every which way and instead chose the inferior product.
Is there some sort of divine economy where beings of pure spirit like angels require more energy or something from God to create?
Or perhaps there is some disadvantage to being in heaven that an earthly existence does not have?
I have suggested the ‘free will is only possible on Earth’ view which would be such an advantage.
Can anyone think of any other reasons?
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
I’d like to clarify something for you about the Church’s teaching regarding the angels.
The Church Fathers teach that the angels did have Free Will, just as we do, when they were created. They were not created in Heaven, with the Beatific Vision, and the ability to see God in the face. They were created outside of Heaven. They endured a great and terrible test. Many chose Hell rather than God, just as many selfish people on Earth do. Those angels that chose God received Him, and Heaven.
God is Love. Love does not require people to choose it. Love wants others to choose it freely. Therefore God did not create either angels or humans in Heaven. He wanted us all to choose Him out of love, even as He chooses us out of love. We are to be united in love. That is why He made us.
So everyone was created with Free Will, outside of Heaven, and was given sufficient grace to choose God but the freedom to reject Him if we want to. All of this was established by Divine Providence for the purpose of love, so that we would be able to choose what we want and would be able to lovingly choose God even as He lovingly chooses us, rather than Him choosing us and us having no choice in the matter. If He chose us and gave us no freedom to lovingly choose Him, our dignity and love for God would be less.
If God created either us or the angels automatically in Heaven, we would have been given no choice. For in Heaven, choices are over. There is no more Free Will to reject God in Heaven. Everyone who is in Heaven has their eyes fixed on the Face of God, as Jesus says in the Gospel, the angels look on the Face of God day and night. No one who is contemplating the Face of God and can see the Face of God in Beatific Vision would ever reject Him. Therefore, in Heaven, the choices are over. We have received the fulfillment of all our desires that are good for us, and that fulfillment is so great that it fulfills all desires completely and perfectly, leaving nothing wanting, so we could never be tempted by any lesser thing any more.
Those in Heaven are perfect and cannot choose to reject God. They have no more Free Will. Free Will was given to us in the first place so that we would choose God, and attain merit through the choice. It was given to us also so that we might unite with God in love, for if we did not choose Him freely and bravely, our love for Him would always be less. Free Will is given for a temporary period so that we can choose God. The fulfillment of all Free Will and of all freedom is found in complete and total submission to God’s Will. When we submit completely to God’s Will and His Will alone is done in our lives, we are completely free from self, the flesh and the world, and the devil, and from everything that does not perfectly fulfill and satisfy our natures and desires. In Heaven, we are completely surrendered to God and completely united with Him and His Will, which always chooses what is best for us and better things for us than we could possibly imagine for ourselves.
Here on Earth, we choose God’s will in faith. In Heaven, we choose it while looking Him in the Face, with the certain knowledge that everything chosen is the best thing for us, and consequently it is all we could desire and we would not want anything other than that.
Sin diminishes freedom from the world, the flesh and the devil, and it attaches us to them, restricting our freedom to love and make good choices, beneficial to ourselves and others.
Practicing and growing in the love of God and neighbor unites us with the will of God and thus frees us from ourselves and from all that is bad for us.
The true and meaningful purpose and end of Free Will is God’s Will. In Heaven, God’s Will is always done in us in everything, and thus we are completely happy and satisfied. We always choose God’s will and could and would never choose anything else, for we can see Him in the Face, and no one who sees such glory in the Face would ever choose or desire anything other than God’s will for themselves.
Free Will was created for the purpose of love, so that we might love more deeply and meaningfully and become united with God through deliberate choice. There is a test we all must undergo, but the angels and saints in Heaven have already passed it.
The Church Fathers teach that the angels did have Free Will, just as we do, when they were created. They were not created in Heaven, with the Beatific Vision, and the ability to see God in the face. They were created outside of Heaven. They endured a great and terrible test. Many chose Hell rather than God, just as many selfish people on Earth do. Those angels that chose God received Him, and Heaven.
God is Love. Love does not require people to choose it. Love wants others to choose it freely. Therefore God did not create either angels or humans in Heaven. He wanted us all to choose Him out of love, even as He chooses us out of love. We are to be united in love. That is why He made us.
So everyone was created with Free Will, outside of Heaven, and was given sufficient grace to choose God but the freedom to reject Him if we want to. All of this was established by Divine Providence for the purpose of love, so that we would be able to choose what we want and would be able to lovingly choose God even as He lovingly chooses us, rather than Him choosing us and us having no choice in the matter. If He chose us and gave us no freedom to lovingly choose Him, our dignity and love for God would be less.
If God created either us or the angels automatically in Heaven, we would have been given no choice. For in Heaven, choices are over. There is no more Free Will to reject God in Heaven. Everyone who is in Heaven has their eyes fixed on the Face of God, as Jesus says in the Gospel, the angels look on the Face of God day and night. No one who is contemplating the Face of God and can see the Face of God in Beatific Vision would ever reject Him. Therefore, in Heaven, the choices are over. We have received the fulfillment of all our desires that are good for us, and that fulfillment is so great that it fulfills all desires completely and perfectly, leaving nothing wanting, so we could never be tempted by any lesser thing any more.
Those in Heaven are perfect and cannot choose to reject God. They have no more Free Will. Free Will was given to us in the first place so that we would choose God, and attain merit through the choice. It was given to us also so that we might unite with God in love, for if we did not choose Him freely and bravely, our love for Him would always be less. Free Will is given for a temporary period so that we can choose God. The fulfillment of all Free Will and of all freedom is found in complete and total submission to God’s Will. When we submit completely to God’s Will and His Will alone is done in our lives, we are completely free from self, the flesh and the world, and the devil, and from everything that does not perfectly fulfill and satisfy our natures and desires. In Heaven, we are completely surrendered to God and completely united with Him and His Will, which always chooses what is best for us and better things for us than we could possibly imagine for ourselves.
Here on Earth, we choose God’s will in faith. In Heaven, we choose it while looking Him in the Face, with the certain knowledge that everything chosen is the best thing for us, and consequently it is all we could desire and we would not want anything other than that.
Sin diminishes freedom from the world, the flesh and the devil, and it attaches us to them, restricting our freedom to love and make good choices, beneficial to ourselves and others.
Practicing and growing in the love of God and neighbor unites us with the will of God and thus frees us from ourselves and from all that is bad for us.
The true and meaningful purpose and end of Free Will is God’s Will. In Heaven, God’s Will is always done in us in everything, and thus we are completely happy and satisfied. We always choose God’s will and could and would never choose anything else, for we can see Him in the Face, and no one who sees such glory in the Face would ever choose or desire anything other than God’s will for themselves.
Free Will was created for the purpose of love, so that we might love more deeply and meaningfully and become united with God through deliberate choice. There is a test we all must undergo, but the angels and saints in Heaven have already passed it.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Now, razredge, with regard to the question of why God creates variety in creation, I’d like to throw out to you this mystical experience of St. Therese of Lisieux. She once asked God why He created some people in far off lands without any access to Catholicism, and many generations lived and died without any missionary ever coming to them. They consequently had less access to grace and those who will go to Heaven will rise less high in Heaven than souls like St. Augustine and others who had full access to truth and to the life of the sacraments. Why did He create this variety in knowledge and access to spiritual life, St. Therese asked.
The Lord answered her by showing her a garden. He showed her lesser, smaller flowers and great flowers, all in the same garden. He pointed out to her that not every flower is made to be a rose; some are made to be daisies. Yet the variety lends greater beauty to the whole.
In the same way, the glory of God is magnified more through variety than through creating only a single kind of creature.
For instance, the Virgin Mary is the greatest and most glorious of creatures, even higher than the seraphim. Yet God did not create her alone. He created all these lesser creatures, vast arrays of them, who will share Heaven with her and Him, and He furthermore created vast varieties of species that will not attain Heaven but exist as a temporal beauty. There is so much variety in God’s creative mind! You and I experience greater joy in looking at the animal world because of the variety of species, because they aren’t all one kind, yet we are mere ignorant creatures and cannot hope to grasp the greatness of the wisdom of the variety between the species.
Angels and humans are different species, created for somewhat different purposes and with differing natures and capabilities. The Lord has willed to create us as a species that by nature is lesser than the angels, yet we are greater than all the animals. He has created different choirs of angels, as well, with differing natures from one another and powers and authorities. Why all this endless variety, different tasks and purposes?
I don’t know, but I do enjoy the spectacle very much! And if God wishes to create me as a lesser species than the angels by nature, so be it; may His will be done, for I’m sure He knows best. He has a perfect plan for me and it is not my place to be greedy for more than He wishes me to have, but rather it is my place to do my utmost to conform myself completely to His will for my life.
Though I will mention also that through the Passion of Christ and the gift of time, humans have access now to the “ladder of grace,” which can supersede the orders of nature. In the order of nature, we are below all the choirs of angels. Yet we have received grace super-abundantly through the Passion of Christ, and by uniting ourselves with it and allowing it to pour out through our lives marvelously, we can actually rise higher than many of the angels. Indeed, many of the saints have written that the saints of God are destined to fill the very seats that the fallen angels abandoned. So we can rise higher than many angels and climb through the choirs on the ladder of grace, like Francis of Assisi or Gemma Galgani, who joined the Seraphim, depending on how we correspond to grace within the time allotted to us to live on this Earth, by the will of God. Therefore we would do well to pray often to not waste the time God has given us, but rather to use it all for the glory of God.
The Lord answered her by showing her a garden. He showed her lesser, smaller flowers and great flowers, all in the same garden. He pointed out to her that not every flower is made to be a rose; some are made to be daisies. Yet the variety lends greater beauty to the whole.
In the same way, the glory of God is magnified more through variety than through creating only a single kind of creature.
For instance, the Virgin Mary is the greatest and most glorious of creatures, even higher than the seraphim. Yet God did not create her alone. He created all these lesser creatures, vast arrays of them, who will share Heaven with her and Him, and He furthermore created vast varieties of species that will not attain Heaven but exist as a temporal beauty. There is so much variety in God’s creative mind! You and I experience greater joy in looking at the animal world because of the variety of species, because they aren’t all one kind, yet we are mere ignorant creatures and cannot hope to grasp the greatness of the wisdom of the variety between the species.
Angels and humans are different species, created for somewhat different purposes and with differing natures and capabilities. The Lord has willed to create us as a species that by nature is lesser than the angels, yet we are greater than all the animals. He has created different choirs of angels, as well, with differing natures from one another and powers and authorities. Why all this endless variety, different tasks and purposes?
I don’t know, but I do enjoy the spectacle very much! And if God wishes to create me as a lesser species than the angels by nature, so be it; may His will be done, for I’m sure He knows best. He has a perfect plan for me and it is not my place to be greedy for more than He wishes me to have, but rather it is my place to do my utmost to conform myself completely to His will for my life.
Though I will mention also that through the Passion of Christ and the gift of time, humans have access now to the “ladder of grace,” which can supersede the orders of nature. In the order of nature, we are below all the choirs of angels. Yet we have received grace super-abundantly through the Passion of Christ, and by uniting ourselves with it and allowing it to pour out through our lives marvelously, we can actually rise higher than many of the angels. Indeed, many of the saints have written that the saints of God are destined to fill the very seats that the fallen angels abandoned. So we can rise higher than many angels and climb through the choirs on the ladder of grace, like Francis of Assisi or Gemma Galgani, who joined the Seraphim, depending on how we correspond to grace within the time allotted to us to live on this Earth, by the will of God. Therefore we would do well to pray often to not waste the time God has given us, but rather to use it all for the glory of God.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, this is just the “life ain’t fair” complaint. I mean, neither us nor angels choose where, when, or how we come into existence. Maybe there are angels right now jealous of you. And only God is all in all. I’ll never be 1) tall, 2) royalty, 3) female, etc, etc, etc. There’s always something that could be better, but, then again, we could always trust in Gods’ wisdom for making things the way they are.How do you know you don’t want to be an angel? Been there, done that?
But you’re the one assuming that it’s better to be an angel. Others are satisfied to be who they are. I’ve already mentioned that learning things the hard way may be Gods purpose for man, with man, through struggle, being forged into a being greater yet than the angels. Either way, this life is still only a temporary lay-over.
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tonyrey
Guest
Welcome to the forum.
Because life in this world is valuable in itself - regardless of what happens after death! Of course it is far less valuable for some one who believes this is the only life because it leads literally to a dead end…
Because life in this world is valuable in itself - regardless of what happens after death! Of course it is far less valuable for some one who believes this is the only life because it leads literally to a dead end…
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
We create havoc on this Earth, can you imagine the havoc we could create in Heaven if we were immortal. God would have to pack his bags, and find somewhere else more peaceful, away from Heaven without us.
Eric
Eric
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tonyrey
Guest
Eric, there are many others who want somewhere peaceful. They would make quite sure we’re the ones who pack our bags!
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razredge
Guest
Well, yes the whole premise was existence in heaven seems to be preferable to an earthy one.
So there must be some kind of benefit to an earthly existence that is not possible in heavenly existence otherwise God would not have created us on earth
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JDaniel
Guest
Razredge:
It’s a good thing that you have finally shown yourself. I was close to calling the law in on this one!
Hmmm . . . how can we ever pretend to know what God has in mind? That said, theology has discerned some probable answers to your question. (BTW, I concur with others, that it is a good question.)
There is the thought that God lost a third of the Angelic population. And, that we are their replacements. I’m sorry, it’s not quite that simple, but, that is essentially the gist of it. Another line of thought is that God is Fecundity in much the same way that He is Love. That means that He is infinitely creational: continuously creating.
Another line of thought is that He is all of those attributes AND, at the same time, the most excellent of Artists. Love, Fecundity, and the Ultimate Artist, wrapped up into one being. The question really is, “Why should He settle for creating the same things over and over again?” Not to in any way disparage the Angels, but as infinitely amazing as those creatures must be why would we think that His creativeness is limited? We are all destined for Heaven. It may take longer for me to get there than it takes you, but, eventually, if I am not chosen to by-pass Purgatory, then it will have to be endured.
Plus, of course, there are many more thoughts. Just one more - and I am not sure how this one plays out - but, He is, after all, infinite. Our universe is but a pin point next to His immensity.This may be His methodology of carrying on infinite creation. There may well be a potential infinity of universes.
If one truly understands what infinity means - that it is not a specific number - that instead it is a ever growing immensity of number, then the concept of a beginning to our universe is not an insurmountable problem.
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JDaniel
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JDaniel
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Razredge:
From what we can glean, there are two levels of Heaven. The highest level, called the Vision level, is no doubt a level where the sight of creations is unnecessary. God’s “face” is beyond enough.
In the next level down from that, where Satan resided because he could not bring himself to view the face of God, perhaps God’s creations are a necessary adjunct to helping those Angels move up to the Vision level.
I think that’s right.
God bless,
jd
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Hey razredge, did you read my post from the previous page? Neither we nor the angels were created in Heaven. According to the Church Fathers, we and the angels were all created outside of Heaven, with Free Will, so that we could choose God deliberately, willingly and lovingly. The angels were tested. Those that chose God in the test entered Heaven and those that abandoned Him fell into Hell. Humans also endure a test, during our lives on Earth, and those that freely choose God receive Him, while those that freely choose to reject Him remain apart from Him.
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johndoe2012
Guest
Sometimes I wish God did not create this world. A lot of us might not make it to heaven 
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JDaniel
Guest
Hello, Johndoe. You indicate that you are a Christian. What makes you think you won’t make it to Heaven? Or, were you referring to someone else?Sometimes I wish God did not create this world. A lot of us might not make it to heaven
God bless,
jd
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razredge
Guest
&
Well put guys, I was thinking along these lines originally but was wondering if there was any other reason besides ‘God just created the universe this way’.
Knowing how vast the universe is, there is likely alien life out there too, which probably tie into the idea of this ‘created variety’ (though if there were no alien life at all in the entire universe, that would be pretty good proof for the existence of God)
Interesting on how the angels were tested, does this come from anywhere in particular? Talmudic angeology?.
I did speculate that free will is not possible in Heaven earlier (would also solve the problem of Hell being eternal since it’s not possible to change your mind).
So this coupled with the ‘variety of creation’ view would reduce possible explanations of the question to:
- Angels have free will and had to choose or reject God prior to being in Heaven. Humans make this same decision on Earth. Angels are essentially superior creations to humans but God has ordained it to be so due to reasons known only to him (possibly to create variety).
- Angels don’t have free will (eg they are just manifested messengers of God), similarily demons are not intrinsically evil and are simply sent by God to tempt us (as presented in the book of Job). We’re on Earth to exercise our free will and choose to embrace or reject God (we’re unable to choose in the afterlife)
- Angels & demons don’t exist. We’re on Earth to exercise our free will and choose to embrace or reject God (we’re unable to choose in the afterlife)
Would we outright reject 2 & 3? Can 2 be held? ie. are Angels just messengers sent by God and demons simply tempters sent by God (as in the book of Job).
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
There surely is, but that doesn’t mean we have to know it. Maybe we’ll learn it in the future, when we get to Heaven.
Here are some good quotes from the Catechism that seem to me to relate to this topic:
339 Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the “six days” it is said: “And God saw that it was good.” "By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws."208 Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness. Man must therefore respect the particular goodness of every creature, to avoid any disordered use of things which would be in contempt of the Creator and would bring disastrous consequences for human beings and their environment.
340 God wills the interdependence of creatures. The sun and the moon, the cedar and the little flower, the eagle and the sparrow: the spectacle of their countless diversities and inequalities tells us that no creature is self-sufficient. Creatures exist only in dependence on each other, to complete each other, in the service of each other.
341 The beauty of the universe: The order and harmony of the created world results from the diversity of beings and from the relationships which exist among them. Man discovers them progressively as the laws of nature. They call forth the admiration of scholars. The beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man’s intellect and will.
342 The hierarchy of creatures is expressed by the order of the “six days”, from the less perfect to the more perfect. God loves all his creatures209 and takes care of each one, even the sparrow. Nevertheless, Jesus said: “You are of more value than many sparrows”, or again: "Of how much more value is a man than a sheep!"210
The Church Fathers taught it. Fr. Gabrielle Amorth talks about it in his book on Exorcism. I read it in his work, though I had already read it in earlier sources before that. I’d need to look around a bit to find out more about the Church Fathers’ writings on it. St. Louis de Montfort I think is the one who describes how one of the reasons for Satan’s fall was that his pride couldn’t handle the idea that God would raise a human woman, Mary, up higher than him, even though by the order of nature, humans are far below the archangels. I believe St. Louis was taking his view from earlier Fathers, though. And there were other reasons listed for the fall of the demons, as well.
This is correct. In Heaven and Hell, there is no more Free Will. People have Free Will here on Earth, the freedom to choose God or reject Him. Angels had the same freedom and the same choice.
This is the view that the Church holds to.
I don’t know what you mean by “just” and “simply.” Angels are another species from us. They are a bodiless, exalted species with greater intellect and power than we have. Fallen angels retain these attributes, but they lack divine love. They want evil only, for they have separated themselves from God, in Whom is Love, and in Whom all goodness is found. The angels are messengers of God, but they are also distinct creatures, like we are. We too can sometimes be used by God as His messengers. And many angels have other tasks, besides passing on messages, including war against God’s enemies, praising the Lord, contemplation, etc.
Demons are tempters permitted by God to attack mankind (Remember, in Job, Satan asks permission to attack Job and God permits it, but was not the instigator of it). They are more than that, though. Bl. Teresa of Calcutta said that the demons’ war is not waged against humans directly but against God, for they hate God and seek to extinguish His Life from within human hearts, out of hatred of him, not specifically out of hatred for us.
Demons do other things too, besides tempt. They aren’t “simple,” anymore than we or the angels are “simple.” We are all sophisticated and highly exalted beings, designed to love God and serve and glorify Him in many ways.
- Status