Why did Christ have to Die

[nmgauss]

Years ago I read that God had to die in order to break His treaty with Abraham. (Gen. 15:9-21, and Jer. 34:17-20). In order for God to establish His Church on earth with Gentiles, He had to break that treaty. Someone has asked me why He had to DIE to save us, and these passage do answer the part about the requirement of God’s “death”. Can I use these passages in Genesis and Jeremiah to my answer to support the need for His death?

Genesis 15:7-21

7 Then he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess.” 8 But he said, “O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” 9 He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 He brought him all these and cut them in two, laying each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. 13 Then the Lord[c] said to Abram, “Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; 14 but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Jeremiah 34: 17-20
Therefore, thus says the Lord: You have not obeyed me by granting a release to your neighbors and friends; I am going to grant a release to you, says the Lord—a release to the sword, to pestilence, and to famine. I will make you a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 And those who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make like[c] the calf when they cut it in two and passed between its parts: 19 the officials of Judah, the officials of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf 20 shall be handed over to their enemies and to those who seek their lives. Their corpses shall become food for the birds of the air and the wild animals of the earth.

I don’t understand what this covenant is all about. Could you explain it?

 

[Darryl_B]

To expound more on that -

God says through His written word that, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This penalty for sin was revealed to the first human being when God warned Adam that’ “on the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:17).

Since “all have sinned…” (Romans 3:23), then we are all condemned to die.

In order for us to be free from this death penalty, Jesus Christ had to die in our stead. The penalty has to be paid, and Christ paid for it.

Jesus Christ never sinned (1 Peter 2:22) and so did not incur the death penalty. He voluntarily paid the death penalty, not for His own sin, but for ours. “But God commandeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us…” (Romans 5:8-10).

The reason why Christ’s death can pay for the penalty of the sin of all of humanity is that He is our Maker (Ephesians 3:9; John 1:1-3). The life He gave was greater than the lives of all human beings combined.

Jesus Christ did not die in our stead. That is protestant substitution theory. Jesus Christ paid the price to redeem us, he paid the price to redeem everyone. We are set free by that paid price to make the journey back to the family of God, who is waiting with open arms. Some do choose to return to the family of God, others say “thanks for doing that Jesus but I am happy where I am” and hence spit on the one who paid the price for their salvation. God is not willing that any should perish. It is our own choice to do that. There are two schools of thought on why the price was what it was.

 

[nmgauss]

It wasn’t Death that was the payment for sin, it was the total, absolute & unreserved self giving of Jesus, which only He could achieve. That it involved Him having to die by the shameful death of the Cross is so He could embrace the whole of human experience in His sufferings - injustice, torture, pain, humiliation, blood=loss, feelings of abandonment, and so on to death & the grave. Thus his generosity, the magnitude of His love.

You imply that Jesus knew he would be crucified for his actions. According to the proceedings of the trial, Pontius Pilate did not agree with the judgment of the Sanhedrin but went along with them for the sake of unanimity. Was Jesus a criminal in the same way as the other two who were crucified? Since Jesus did not commit an infraction of the same genre as the other two, His comments could have been interpreted as sedition or not, depending on the interpretation.

In fact, when he said “Father, why have you forsaken me”, this implies that he did not anticipate crucifixion.

 

[mlz]

The obedience of Jesus atoned for the disobedience of Adam.
The obedience of Jesus reconciled Adam’s shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity.
As the first human, all humankind is in Adam “as one body of one man.”
God did not abandon humankind.

Romans 5: 12-21
Genesis 3: 15
John 3: 16
*Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *paragraphs 374-379; 385-389; 396-411; 1730-1732.

Links to the Catechism

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

YES!
mlz

 

[nmgauss]

and to add to this he was not forced at all to do this! Because of HIS LOVE for the world, i.e. all of us… HE Chose to do this!

You mean that when he carried the heavy cross with a crown of thorns on his head, that nobody was forcing him to do that? Did he nail himself to the cross? How about digging a hole and erecting the cross into it after he was nailed to it? There must have been a crew to force him into this.

 

[Darryl_B]

You mean that when he carried the heavy cross with a crown of thorns on his head, that nobody was forcing him to do that? Did he nail himself to the cross? How about digging a hole and erecting the cross into it after he was nailed to it? There must have been a crew to force him into this.

Do you understand the difference between active and passive. I suspect you do, but your response says you don’t.

 

[Darryl_B]

You imply that Jesus knew he would be crucified for his actions. According to the proceedings of the trial, Pontius Pilate did not agree with the judgment of the Sanhedrin but went along with them for the sake of unanimity. Was Jesus a criminal in the same way as the other two who were crucified? Since Jesus did not commit an infraction of the same genre as the other two, His comments could have been interpreted as sedition or not, depending on the interpretation.

In fact, when he said “Father, why have you forsaken me”, this implies that he did not anticipate crucifixion.

When Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast though forsaken me” it implies that you are not familiar with Scripture.

 

[Fuego]

Yeahhh, but why was death the payment for sin?

The spiritual Law that God set in motion for the right relationship with God, our Maker, and with our fellow human beings imposes death as the penalty for its transgression. That is how God made that great Law of Love. He requires that the life He gave to us be taken away from us if we even once break that Law.

God is the lawgiver (James 4:12). He can impose whatever penalty He sees fit for breaking His Law. And the penalty is sure. Just as sure as we will fall if we step off a tall building because of the law of gravity (one of the many physical laws God set in motion), it is equally certain that we will die if we disrespect our parent because one point of God’s spiritual Law says, “Honor thy father and thy mother.”

 

[LegoGE1947]

The spiritual Law that God set in motion for the right relationship with God, our Maker, and with our fellow human beings imposes death as the penalty for its transgression. That is how God made that great Law of Love. He requires that the life He gave to us be taken away from us if we even once break that Law.

God is the lawgiver (James 4:12). He can impose whatever penalty He sees fit for breaking His Law. And the penalty is sure. Just as sure as we will fall if we step off a tall building because of the law of gravity (one of the many physical laws God set in motion), it is equally certain that we will die if we disrespect our parent because one point of God’s spiritual Law says, “Honor thy father and thy mother.”

I learned that there is more than just one kind of “death” There is physical death, of course, but there is also spiritual death, which is separation from God. So many people who are physically alive are spiritually dead (having no relationship with God) An example would be Adam and Eve, after their original sin. They remained physically alive for some time after, but spiritually, they were dead and had to approach God through means of the shed blood of an innocent animal, a prefigurement of Christ’s sacrificial death. ( correct me if I am wrong)

 

[cthomp1961]

You mean that when he carried the heavy cross with a crown of thorns on his head, that nobody was forcing him to do that? Did he nail himself to the cross? How about digging a hole and erecting the cross into it after he was nailed to it? There must have been a crew to force him into this.

He chose to do it out of love not because the Romans made him, they just carried out the motions, the Jews condemned him they wanted Barabbas free instead , the Romans carried it out, do you not think at any time his angels would have come down and erased them all had he just said the word? “Not my will Father but yours be done” My interpretation is that he did it of His own freewill

 

[LegoGE1947]

He chose to do it out of love not because the Romans made him, they just carried out the motions, the Jews condemned him they wanted Barabbas free instead , the Romans carried it out, do you not think at any time his angels would have come down and erased them all had he just said the word? “Not my will Father but yours be done” My interpretation is that he did it of His own freewill

The way I get it, they couldn’t take His life until it was the appointed time for Him to lay it down. Several times, attempts were made on His life, but until He voluntarily gave Himself up, they couldn’t touch Him. Also, unless He could have taken His life back up, it would have been useless and foolish for Him to lay it down! No other religious leader in history could EVER do what Christ did.

 

[nmgauss]

Do you understand the difference between active and passive. I suspect you do, but your response says you don’t.

Are you implying that Jesus did not resist? Even to the point of carrying the cross He could have refused but didn’t? Jesus was observed many times in his ministry becoming angry, yet no anger was detected when carrying the cross. Perhaps, since the awful act was being done to Him rather than to another, His sense of righteousness was non- existent. I suppose He was resigned to His destiny at this point.

 

[Theodore_Jones]

Jesus Christ did not die in our stead. That is protestant substitution theory. Jesus Christ paid the price to redeem us, he paid the price to redeem everyone. We are set free by that paid price to make the journey back to the family of God, who is waiting with open arms. Some do choose to return to the family of God, others say “thanks for doing that Jesus but I am happy where I am” and hence spit on the one who paid the price for their salvation. God is not willing that any should perish. It is our own choice to do that. There are two schools of thought on why the price was what it was.

If He “paid” anything it was what it cost Him to perfect the Way you must have the faith to use to get into God’s kingdom. “Enter (your responsibility) by the strait gate”, but first you must identify what this gate is. Very few ever do that according to Him.

 

[Darryl_B]

Are you implying that Jesus did not resist? Even to the point of carrying the cross He could have refused but didn’t? Jesus was observed many times in his ministry becoming angry, yet no anger was detected when carrying the cross. Perhaps, since the awful act was being done to Him rather than to another, His sense of righteousness was non- existent. I suppose He was resigned to His destiny at this point.

Yes. Twelve legions of angels were at his disposal.

 

[nmgauss]

He chose to do it out of love not because the Romans made him, they just carried out the motions, the Jews condemned him they wanted Barabbas free instead , the Romans carried it out, do you not think at any time his angels would have come down and erased them all had he just said the word? “Not my will Father but yours be done” My interpretation is that he did it of His own freewill

Becoming a martyr is a very powerful way to attract attention. Also, Jesus had a chance to become a symbol, where before, he was almost unknown. In fact, if He had not been crucified, He might have remained unknown. It was after His story began to be written down in the Gospels that people far and wide learned of Him. He was not mentioned in Flavius Josephus’ work on the Jewish Wars. Later when the Gospels began to be circulated, he mentioned Jesus in his “Antiquities” work, no doubt because St. Mark or St. Matthew brought it to his attention or else their original sources did.

 

[mikekle]

Are you implying that Jesus did not resist? Even to the point of carrying the cross He could have refused but didn’t? Jesus was observed many times in his ministry becoming angry, yet no anger was detected when carrying the cross. Perhaps, since the awful act was being done to Him rather than to another, His sense of righteousness was non- existent. I suppose He was resigned to His destiny at this point.

Well, he also knew he would be back in heaven shortly too and out of this horrible world, I imagine this was on his mind most of the time carrying that cross, have to remember he WAS God, so he knew exactly what was going to happen, he knew what our pain was going to feel like, after all, he is the creator of EVERYTHING, so he knew all of this beforehand.

I have a hard time understand why ‘death’ was the price to be paid as well, however he did not really die though, he was God, in a mans body, so death would not have been possible for his divine self (only the body he was in at the time). who or what was demanding his death for our sins?

Since he already died for our sins, why is not everyone thus saved automatically? Why must we confess our sins if they are already ‘bought and paid for’ in a sense?

Im also curious what would have happened had Jesus NOT died for this purpose? What would be different in our world/ lives today?

 

[souldancing]

Genesis 15:7-21

7 Then he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess.” 8 But he said, “O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?” 9 He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 He brought him all these and cut them in two, laying each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. 13 Then the Lord[c] said to Abram, “Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; 14 but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Jeremiah 34: 17-20
Therefore, thus says the Lord: You have not obeyed me by granting a release to your neighbors and friends; I am going to grant a release to you, says the Lord—a release to the sword, to pestilence, and to famine. I will make you a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 And those who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make like[c] the calf when they cut it in two and passed between its parts: 19 the officials of Judah, the officials of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf 20 shall be handed over to their enemies and to those who seek their lives. Their corpses shall become food for the birds of the air and the wild animals of the earth.

I don’t understand what this covenant is all about. Could you explain it?

When I posted this question I’d no idea that I’d get so many responses, and such diversity in them!

First, the covenant was with Abraham, which established him as being the founder of God’s people. In the treaty ratification (the ceremony described - the verses about the animals being laid out and the smoking pot and torch passing between them - indicates the God was present as a cosignor. The treaty is self-imprecating, requiring God or Abraham to die if they violate the treaty. Since the Jewish nation turned away from God, and God wished to turn His blessing to the Gentiles, God would have to violate that treaty. So God had to die. Christ was sent to reach out to His people (the Jewish nation) and they rejected Him. Christ died on the cross to redeem us from our sins, and it enabled God to transfer His blessings onto us Gentiles in the stead of the Jewish peoples.

 

[Theodore_Jones]

When I posted this question I’d no idea that I’d get so many responses, and such diversity in them!

First, the covenant was with Abraham, which established him as being the founder of God’s people. In the treaty ratification (the ceremony described - the verses about the animals being laid out and the smoking pot and torch passing between them - indicates the God was present as a cosignor. The treaty is self-imprecating, requiring God or Abraham to die if they violate the treaty. Since the Jewish nation turned away from God, and God wished to turn His blessing to the Gentiles, God would have to violate that treaty. So God had to die. Christ was sent to reach out to His people (the Jewish nation) and they rejected Him. Christ died on the cross to redeem us from our sins, and it enabled God to transfer His blessings onto us Gentiles in the stead of the Jewish peoples.

God is the Living God. The only God that is alive.“So God had to die” is poppycock.

 

[souldancing]

God is the Living God. The only God that is alive.“So God had to die” is poppycock.

Can God die?
by Matt Slick

No, God cannot die. The Bible tells us that God is immutable (Psalm 90:2; Malachi 3:6). This means that he cannot change. If he died, that would be a change. The nature of God’s divinity is that he cannot change, so he cannot die. Furthermore, death is a biological function where something that is alive ceases to be alive. But God is not biological. God is different than us. In theology we say that he is "Wholly Other.” That is, he is completely different than what we are. We die, but God does not.

Also, the idea of dying has the implication of nonexistence. This is a further problem when considering the idea of God dying. In Christianity, God cannot cease to exist - again implying a change in his nature, which cannot be. Therefore, God cannot die.

Sometimes people will say that Jesus can’t be God because Jesus died and God cannot die. What they fail to understand is that Jesus has two natures: God and man. In theology we call this the hypostatic union. It is the teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures, the divine and human. It was the human nature that died on the cross, not the divine nature. But because Jesus is both divine and human, it is sometimes said, although not with the greatest accuracy, that God died on the cross.

So, God cannot die; but in the person of Christ, who is a man with the divine nature, we see a biological death, not the death of the divine being who is God.

 

[PJM]

=souldancing;11799791]Years ago I read that God had to die in order to break His treaty with Abraham. (Gen. 15:9-21, and Jer. 34:17-20). In order for God to establish His Church on earth with Gentiles, He had to break that treaty. Someone has asked me why He had to DIE to save us, and these passage do answer the part about the requirement of God’s “death”. Can I use these passages in Genesis and Jeremiah to my answer to support the need for His death?

He DIDN’T. That was God’s freewill choice. he could have done it differently.

ALSO Christ passion and Death did not result in “salvation” per sae; rather “only” [not making lite of it] Redemption. Christ “Redeemed” EVERY man, woman and child ever born!
AND reopened access to heaven which had been closed due to Original Sin of Adam and Eve.

Christ made salvation POSSIBLE- Conditionally to those who actually Knew Him; Obeyed Him fully, and Glorified Him. That is why Christ choose One True God; who can and DOES have only His One True set of faith beliefs, through just the One Church [today’s Catholics] and did so following His Own OT Model of One God; One set of beliefs and One Chosen people.** Eph. 4:4-8**

God Bless you,
Patrick