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mdgspencer
Guest
I always have wondered why Jesus made Judas an apostle, when he knew Judas would betray him.
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drafdog
Guest
A specific job needed to be done. Judas was the man to do it. Jesus always hoped that Judas would repent afterward, unfortunately that does not seem to have happened. Poor guy couldn’t live with himself. I’m not sure any of us would have done any better.
Matthew
Matthew
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NotWorthy
Guest
To fulfill all righteousness? To fulfill the Scriptures?
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deb1
Guest
Although Peter didn’t betray Jesus, he did deny him three times.
I like to think that God held open an alternative ending to Judas’ life. If he had asked sincerly for forgiveness from God and been humble, he would have been forgiven. Perhaps that was Jesus’ hope.
F
Franciscan
Guest
To teach us about the depravity of our fallen nature and the dignity of the gift of free will.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
The notion that He knew this, is extremely problematic, from many POVs. If Jesus knew, in advance, that Judas would betray Him, yet chose Judas, how is that different from saying that He chose him so that he might damn himself ? For if that is what we have to believe, then Jesus is not merely not good, He is diabolical. A Jesus who can do anything so foul does not deserve to be worshipped,because that sort of behaviour is worthy of a devil; not even the devil can pull off a trick like that. Judas, in such a state, is the most pitiable of men - for what possible resistance is there to a God-man who choses a man in order that that man may destroy himself ? This appalling hypothesis makes Jesus the worst enemy the human race could have, & not its Saviour, but its Destroyer. A Jesus who can do & does that, has been diabolised - for on this hypotyhesis He can do, & does do, things even the devil for all his hatred & power cannot. Surely no one wants to believe anything so hideous 
?
**That may seem far-fetched, but ideas have their inherent logic, so that there are conclusions to which they cannot but lead. Unless something is missing here, that is the body of conclusions that flows from the notions that are inherent in the idea that Jesus chose Judas knowing full well Judas would betray Him ****I don’t believe Jesus knew any such thing. St. John says “…he knew what was in man…[John 2]” - & that particular gospel is especially harsh to Judas. I don’t think that ignorance on the part of Jesus prejudices the reality of the Incarnation, but is a feature of it, & is required by any doctrine that professes that Jesus is Immanu-El, “God-with-us”, in a any sense that is not mere words; if we are limited by ignorance as a condition of our being finite because men & therefore creatures, it is not clear how Jesus, is truly a man, can have been different. **
**Darkening of intellect through sin can be absent where there is finiteness - because being finite is a consequence not of sin, but of being man: & Jesus is man, or else He is merely God playing at being man, & therefore irrelevant to men, as He ceases to be “God-with-us” in any real sense. How can He be finite & yet be God ? He simply is - if we can do no more with a creature as familiar as light than say it is a wave & is also particles, what prospect have we of understanding how Jesus of Nazareth is God & yet man ? **
Sorry to rabbit on - those last two paragraphs are to keep the dogma Stasi happy. Somehow, Jesus has to be credibly human, as well as being God (not that the NT emphasises the latter much); & just how He is actively both, is very relevant to the question in the thread.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Just as when God creates us He gives us the opportunity to be a saint or a sinner; so did Jesus give Judas the opportunity to be a great saint or a great sinner. Judas could have repented and become the great patron of penitents. For both us and Judas God and Jesus know how it will play out, but that does not deprive us or him of the opportunity for salvation.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
There are some very good answers in this thread. However, I don’t see that Jesus knowing what Judas would do as being extremely problematic. God, for example knows what we will eventually do and yet even those who will eventually damn themselves for all eternity are given life. It is not logical to assume that because God knows an outcome, that free will has been dispensed with.
Judas had all of the benefits and blessings of being an Apostle, and was chosen, not for his “inevitable” betrayal, but because there was a great opportunity being offered to Judas. Always bear in mind that it is Judas, using his free will, that resulted in the betrayal. Just as Jesus knew St. Peter would deny him, He knew Judas would betray him. But there was never anything but grace and opportunity for both of them to avoid this sin. Jesus told Peter TWICE to watch and pray and St. Peter instead slept. Just as St. Peter was responsible for his sin, so was Judas. St. Peter repented, and was saved.
It is VERY difficult with our WEAK intelligence to understand the judgments of GOD, when reviewing events like the betrayal of Judas. But rest assured, Jesus knew he would eventually betray Him, but at the same time offered him every grace and opportunity to turn him away from this course of action.
We shall never be able to plead with God at the Last Judgment, …“but you knew I would do this, and you let me”…
Our free will must cooperate with God’s grace so that we work out our Salvation in fear and trembling. That is why we pray in the Our Father “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” We should be very earnest in this petition.
Judas had all of the benefits and blessings of being an Apostle, and was chosen, not for his “inevitable” betrayal, but because there was a great opportunity being offered to Judas. Always bear in mind that it is Judas, using his free will, that resulted in the betrayal. Just as Jesus knew St. Peter would deny him, He knew Judas would betray him. But there was never anything but grace and opportunity for both of them to avoid this sin. Jesus told Peter TWICE to watch and pray and St. Peter instead slept. Just as St. Peter was responsible for his sin, so was Judas. St. Peter repented, and was saved.
It is VERY difficult with our WEAK intelligence to understand the judgments of GOD, when reviewing events like the betrayal of Judas. But rest assured, Jesus knew he would eventually betray Him, but at the same time offered him every grace and opportunity to turn him away from this course of action.
We shall never be able to plead with God at the Last Judgment, …“but you knew I would do this, and you let me”…
Our free will must cooperate with God’s grace so that we work out our Salvation in fear and trembling. That is why we pray in the Our Father “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” We should be very earnest in this petition.
B
BRB
Guest
How better to witness to an unbeliver … than to ask him onto your team ? From this point of view, Judas had much better opportunity to ‘choose the good’, than most Jews of that day. Jesus was daily in prayer to the Father … and surely was informed that Judas was the one with unbelief … and would betray him.
Scriptures do say that Jesus prayed the Father to keep the other apostles faithful … and none of them were lost. This does suggest that Jesus had foreknowledge that Judas would be the betrayer. And scriptures teach that Jesus currently prays the Father to keep all Christians faithful and committed. This suggests that we can fall away … back into unbelief.
But, in the final analysis, no one can come to Jesus w/o the Father’s spiritual (name removed by moderator)ut. Scriptures suggest that we all are heaven bound as young children [God loves all His children] … but, over time, the world / satan pull many of us into unbelief. Free will is part of equation … we are not robots.
God is love … above all other characteristics. Judas was loved too… but, he chose not to be faithful and listened to another master. The fact God could know this in advance does not mean God/Jesus had diabolical intent with respect to Judas.
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joseph_virgen
Guest
no doubt some say judas is in hell. i wouldn’t be too sure to such a definate claim. if anything the Nezarene’s relationship with judas is a wondrous display of love. Jesus loved Judas.
and since the Nazarene layed down his life for all of us, that also. includes judas. and we know judas repented as he himself said he had “betrayed innnocent blood.”
we all know somebody with a character flaw, as no one is perfect.
the apostles had plenty of them. the Nazarene knew this and did not abandoned none, none. that, is love.
at worst, my guess, my hope, my trust, and my love for the Nazarene compells me to state that judas is, at worst, in purgatory.
and since the Nazarene layed down his life for all of us, that also. includes judas. and we know judas repented as he himself said he had “betrayed innnocent blood.”
we all know somebody with a character flaw, as no one is perfect.
the apostles had plenty of them. the Nazarene knew this and did not abandoned none, none. that, is love.
at worst, my guess, my hope, my trust, and my love for the Nazarene compells me to state that judas is, at worst, in purgatory.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
joseph virgen:
I am not declaring that therefore Judas was damned, however we have no reason, based on Scripture, to believe he was saved either. It shows more discretion, I believe, to let the matter rest silently in the Hands of God. In other words, I wouldn’t suggest Judas is saved any more than I would suggest Judas was damned. It is a very sorry and tragic circumstance. It is probable that the Scripture only mentions this by way of instructing Christians how NOT to act.
Just a thought. It’s true Judas repented of his betrayal in as much as things didn’t turn out the way he expected. That much we can deduce from his act. But there was no reconciliation with Jesus (as with Peter), nor was there any possibility of this, as he hung himself in what appears to be despair.
I am not declaring that therefore Judas was damned, however we have no reason, based on Scripture, to believe he was saved either. It shows more discretion, I believe, to let the matter rest silently in the Hands of God. In other words, I wouldn’t suggest Judas is saved any more than I would suggest Judas was damned. It is a very sorry and tragic circumstance. It is probable that the Scripture only mentions this by way of instructing Christians how NOT to act.
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Lui
Guest
In my opinion Judas **had **to betray Jesus in order to fulfill the prophecy. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him.
John 6:64, 68a, 69a, 70, and 71
“But there are some of you who do NOT believe". For Jesus KNEW from the beginning who they were who did NOT believe, and who it was that would BETRAY Him…Simon Peter answered Him…’and we (apostles) have believed.’ Jesus answered them, ‘Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?’ Now He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.”
John 6:64, 68a, 69a, 70, and 71
“But there are some of you who do NOT believe". For Jesus KNEW from the beginning who they were who did NOT believe, and who it was that would BETRAY Him…Simon Peter answered Him…’and we (apostles) have believed.’ Jesus answered them, ‘Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?’ Now He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.”
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
I heard a great answer by Fr. William Casey, he said, “The reason why Jesus chose Judas while knowing that he would betray Him is to give an everlasting sign that there would be corrupted clergy in the Church. The spirit of Judas is still in the Church today.”
C
Crumpy
Guest
different parts of my brain develop at different rates.
Yes, the whole matter of Judas is troubling, for all the reasons stated so far, if not for many other reasons.
Even to speculate on Judas’ motives is a problem. It doesn’t seem that he was interested in the silver. That just doesn’t seem to be enough of a reason to have motivated him.
There must have been something of a higher order problem there, with Judas specifically betraying him to his Jewish enemies. He was called the Zealot, wasn’t he? That made him sort of a militant fighter, didn’t it? He may have grown (name removed by moderator)atient with Jesus for his meekness, and maybe he thought that this crisis would radicalize Jesus into the action, perhaps an uprising, that Judas may have desired. This is all my own speculation. There is nothing scholarly here.
So, too, Jesus was foretelling the disciples what was going to happen to him and what must happen.
There may be some big allegory going on here.
Dr. Tim Gray has that outstanding series right now on EWTN on Adventures in Exodus, and he mentioned something about the Passover evening, after the meal, where people were supposed to keep watch all night. That is what is significant about Peter, James,and John dozing off. They were violating the – oh I forget the Hebrew word for this – maybe Haggadah rules for the Passover. So, they MISSED the very thing that the tradition said they were supposed to watch out for.
As always, the Bible records things by no accident – it’s telling us something.
Well, even Judas’ suicide. There are supposed to be seven suicides in the Bible. Seven is an important number in scripture. Judas would be the seventh, I believe. At least a few of the other suicides were trying to escape capture and humiliation. like Saul. I don’t know if there’s more there, but there probably is. It seems like all these are people who were literally ensnared in Jewish belief, figuratively and literally self-destructive.
Too, maybe one of the previous posts mentions some scripture fulfilled, by Jesus being betrayed by so close an ally.
It’s not scriptural, but you wonder if his death was a suicide at all.
You’d need to know the nuances in the original Greek to see if there was any hint of intrigue.
Oh, what I was going to say was this. In the gospel accounts, we see such complex reactions of people to Jesus. I often wonder what my reaction would have been to Jesus. Sadly, I can all to easily identify with the people who rejected him and passed him by. I might have been too busy to want to bother to go see this wandering teacher, especially a controversial one like him.
And, all this, because I was not suitably awaiting the promised anointed One.
But, it’s still the same dilemma we all have today: Who do WE say that He is?
Yes, the whole matter of Judas is troubling, for all the reasons stated so far, if not for many other reasons.
Even to speculate on Judas’ motives is a problem. It doesn’t seem that he was interested in the silver. That just doesn’t seem to be enough of a reason to have motivated him.
There must have been something of a higher order problem there, with Judas specifically betraying him to his Jewish enemies. He was called the Zealot, wasn’t he? That made him sort of a militant fighter, didn’t it? He may have grown (name removed by moderator)atient with Jesus for his meekness, and maybe he thought that this crisis would radicalize Jesus into the action, perhaps an uprising, that Judas may have desired. This is all my own speculation. There is nothing scholarly here.
So, too, Jesus was foretelling the disciples what was going to happen to him and what must happen.
There may be some big allegory going on here.
Dr. Tim Gray has that outstanding series right now on EWTN on Adventures in Exodus, and he mentioned something about the Passover evening, after the meal, where people were supposed to keep watch all night. That is what is significant about Peter, James,and John dozing off. They were violating the – oh I forget the Hebrew word for this – maybe Haggadah rules for the Passover. So, they MISSED the very thing that the tradition said they were supposed to watch out for.
As always, the Bible records things by no accident – it’s telling us something.
Well, even Judas’ suicide. There are supposed to be seven suicides in the Bible. Seven is an important number in scripture. Judas would be the seventh, I believe. At least a few of the other suicides were trying to escape capture and humiliation. like Saul. I don’t know if there’s more there, but there probably is. It seems like all these are people who were literally ensnared in Jewish belief, figuratively and literally self-destructive.
Too, maybe one of the previous posts mentions some scripture fulfilled, by Jesus being betrayed by so close an ally.
It’s not scriptural, but you wonder if his death was a suicide at all.
You’d need to know the nuances in the original Greek to see if there was any hint of intrigue.
Oh, what I was going to say was this. In the gospel accounts, we see such complex reactions of people to Jesus. I often wonder what my reaction would have been to Jesus. Sadly, I can all to easily identify with the people who rejected him and passed him by. I might have been too busy to want to bother to go see this wandering teacher, especially a controversial one like him.
And, all this, because I was not suitably awaiting the promised anointed One.
But, it’s still the same dilemma we all have today: Who do WE say that He is?
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