Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence?

[steve-b]

I’m convinced that the early Christians believed in the Real Presence, but I’m not sure why. Does anybody know? I doubt it is because Jesus explicitly taught it beyond what is recorded in the Gospels.

So, why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence?

The mass in scripture

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine) Heb 10:19-31 RSVCE - A Call to Persevere - Therefore, - Bible Gateway
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected

What are they doing when they meet?

“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the
Eucharist
Matthew 26:28 , Mt 26:28 RSVCE - for this is my blood of the covenant, - Bible Gateway
Mark 14:24 , Mark 14:24 RSVCE - And he said to them, “This is my - Bible Gateway

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass, the Eucharist
THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

Re: sin

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

 

[CampionTheChampion]

“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected

I thought “the Day” refered to the day of judgment.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected

I thought “the Day” refered to the day of judgment.

Look at the context?
Who knows when that day is other than the Father. Besides, who presumes they won’t meet on THAT day. IOW the Day spoken of in Hebrews is Sunday, the Lord’s Day

 

[guanophore]

The mass in scripture

An interesting post, Steve, but I am not sure how it addresses the topic.

I think you are making the point that Hebrews is describing the Mass, and that the Eucharist is understood to be Real Presence.

If that is true, then why would the early Christians believe that?

 

[guanophore]

I thought “the Day” refered to the day of judgment.

I have always read this to be the Day of His return - the Parousia.

Who knows when that day is other than the Father. Besides, who presumes they won’t meet on THAT day. IOW the Day spoken of in Hebrews is Sunday, the Lord’s Day

The fact that they did not know the Day of Jesus’ return did not stop them from any of these apostolic practices. They all had a sense that it was “near”. I agree with you, I would not presume that the believers would not gather on That Day. In fact, I can think of no better place to be found except at Mass!

But there is nothing in text itself that would indicate this needs to be a Sunday. In fact, it is likely that Hebrews was written to Messianic Jews that were still attending synagogue on Saturday and meeting with other Christians at another time.

Earlier there is a strong polemic to support that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, indicating that once entering into Christ, participation in the Jewish Sabbath has been fulfilled. But, I digress, this does not address the topic either!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The mass in scripture

An interesting post, Steve, but I am not sure how it addresses the topic.

I think you are making the point that Hebrews is describing the Mass, and that the Eucharist is understood to be Real Presence.

If that is true, then why would the early Christians believe that?

The letter to the Hebrews is written to the early Jewish converts in the Church who were the majority in the beginninmg…

To believe in the Eucharist as Jesus, and the sacrifice for sins and blood of the covenant, is to believe in the real presence in the Eucharist, the point of those verses in Ch 10 of Hebrews

 

[steve-b]

CampionTheChampion:

I thought “the Day” refered to the day of judgment.

I have always read this to be the Day of His return - the Parousia.

Who knows when that day is other than the Father. Besides, who presumes they won’t meet on THAT day. IOW the Day spoken of in Hebrews is Sunday, the Lord’s Day

The fact that they did not know the Day of Jesus’ return did not stop them from any of these apostolic practices. They all had a sense that it was “near”. I agree with you, I would not presume that the believers would not gather on That Day. In fact, I can think of no better place to be found except at Mass!

There was already a serious consequence described in Hebrews for deliberately not meeting as is the habit of some.

Then it says as you see the Day draw near

That completely eliminates any Day other than Sunday

guanophore:

But there is nothing in text itself that would indicate this needs to be a Sunday. In fact, it is likely that Hebrews was written to Messianic Jews that were still attending synagogue on Saturday and meeting with other Christians at another time.

Earlier there is a strong polemic to support that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, indicating that once entering into Christ, participation in the Jewish Sabbath has been fulfilled. But, I digress, this does not address the topic either!

They celebrated the Day He Rose from the dead. That’s Sunday

 

[guanophore]

There was already a serious consequence described in Hebrews for deliberately not meeting as is the habit of some.

I know I am playing the devil’s advocate here. How do you know this consequence refers to failing to attend Mass, rather than falling away from grace (denying the Lord after having received initiation into the Sacraments)?

There were some parts of the world, where there were no priests or very infrequent visits by priests, that may not have had a Mass for weeks or months.

If Judgment Day was near, would they not maybe meet daily? In Acts it describes that they did so.

Then it says as you see the Day draw near

The Revised Standard is giving two cross references to this, one is I Cor. 3:13, the other Rom. 13:12. In both cases, it seems to be a reference to the day of judgment.

That completely eliminates any Day other than Sunday

As far as days of the week go, I agree with you, but I think it could apply to the 2nd Coming as well.

They celebrated the Day He Rose from the dead. That’s Sunday

Right, yes, did not mean to indicate otherwise, but they also met and broke bread on other days as well. How does this evidence support that the early Christians believed in the Real Presence?

 

[jas84173]

Justin Martyr I believe is our earlier source for this in the mid 2nd century. I think in his first apology.

 

[Crocus]

I doubt it is because Jesus explicitly taught it beyond what is recorded in the Gospels.

We may be having difficulty understanding your question. Are you expecting to find a teaching of Jesus that exists outside the Gospels?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

There was already a serious consequence described in Hebrews for deliberately not meeting as is the habit of some.

I know I am playing the devil’s advocate here. How do you know this consequence refers to failing to attend Mass, rather than falling away from grace (denying the Lord after having received initiation into the Sacraments)?

Look at the context. “not neglecting to meet as is the habit of some…all the more as you see the Day drawing near”

IOW there are those who are already failing to meet on the Day. Sunday. And what did they do On Sunday? When 2 disciples were walking to Emmaus, the day of the resurrection, Sunday, they met Jesus only they didn’t recognize Him until He said the blessing and broke the bread Luke 24:28-30 RSVCE - So they drew near to the village to - Bible Gateway

Guanophore:

There were some parts of the world, where there were no priests or very infrequent visits by priests, that may not have had a Mass for weeks or months.

That’s not describing what’s going on in the passages I quoted from Hebrews.

guanophore:

If Judgment Day was near, would they not maybe meet daily? In Acts it describes that they did so.

steve-b:

the context is talking about those who are deliberately not meeting on the Day. It’s been going on and on and on for some. IOW ?Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, some are already in the habit of not meeting.

Then it says “as you see the Day draw near”

guanophore:

The Revised Standard is giving two cross references to this, one is I Cor. 3:13, the other Rom. 13:12. In both cases, it seems to be a reference to the day of judgment.

From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another."
[snip for space]

2181 [snip for space] **Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.**
[snip for space]
BTW: Grave sin = mortal sin,

IOW the Church sees the passages I quoted from Hebrews as reference to the Eucharist and the mass

They celebrated the Day He Rose from the dead. That’s Sunday

How does this evidence support that the early Christians believed in the Real Presence?

Re: the blessing Jesus gave instituting the Eucharist,

Jesus concludes

Do [ ποιεῖτε http://bibleapps.com/greek/4160.htm ] this in remembrance of me (Lk 22:19]

Do what? Do exactly what Jesus did.

Definition:

Do ποιεῖτε = to change one thing into another, make, manufacture, construct, cause, to ordain

 

[guanophore]

Justin Martyr I believe is our earlier source for this in the mid 2nd century. I think in his first apology.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

 

[guanophore]

The letter to the Hebrews is written to the early Jewish converts in the Church who were the majority in the beginninmg…

To believe in the Eucharist as Jesus, and the sacrifice for sins and blood of the covenant, is to believe in the real presence in the Eucharist, the point of those verses in Ch 10 of Hebrews

I agree with you, of course, but I don’t this could convince a Reformed Christian.

There is more emphasis in Hebrews on His priesthood being superior than there is to Him as the sacrifice itself.

They celebrated the Day He Rose from the dead. That’s Sunday

Yes,

25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Are you saying that they needed to encourage one another to attend Sunday Mass as Sunday drew closer? This is just a different rendering of the text for me, so I am trying to get your perspective.

When 2 disciples were walking to Emmaus, the day of the resurrection, Sunday, they met Jesus only they didn’t recognize Him until He said the blessing and broke the bread Luke 24:28-30 RSVCE - So they drew near to the village to - Bible Gateway

I find this one very convincing. The text is quite clear that “they recognized him in the breaking of the Bread”. It seems as if the whole story is centered around convincing the disciples that He is present in the breaking of the bread.

That’s not describing what’s going on in the passages I quoted from Hebrews.

Not from the perspective you are using, but this letter is a diasporic letter, so went to Hebrew Christians all over the empire.

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Thanks for that reference! Yes, I agree the Church sees this as a reference to the Mass. But this would still be valid even if “the Day” referred to the Day of judgment. And I am not sure that it is a convincing reference to a person who denies the Real Presence. Those who deny this still hold that it is important to go to Church on Sunday, citing the same passage!

 

[Edward_H]

They had faith

 

[jas84173]

Great link! Thanks!

 

[guanophore]

I doubt it is because Jesus explicitly taught it beyond what is recorded in the Gospels.

So, why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence?

Let me try to understand this. You believe that the early Christians adhered to the Real Presence, but you don’t believe it was Jesus who taught them this? What evidence do you have that what the Early Church understood to be references of Jesus and the Apostles to the Real Presence were believed otherwise (symbolically?)

The Gospel itself clearly states that most of what Jesus said and did is not contained in the books, so are you saying that you don’t accept what the Gospel says about itself?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The letter to the Hebrews is written to the early Jewish converts in the Church who were the majority in the beginninmg…

To believe in the Eucharist as Jesus, and the sacrifice for sins and blood of the covenant, is to believe in the real presence in the Eucharist, the point of those verses in Ch 10 of Hebrews

I agree with you, of course, but I don’t this could convince a Reformed Christian.

Even Jesus didn’t convince everyone He spoke to

guanophore:

There is more emphasis in Hebrews on His priesthood being superior than there is to Him as the sacrifice itself.

It’s not a competition between emphasis. The passage I quoted from , describes the mass and the Church via the CCC, teaches it’s a reference to the mass

They celebrated the Day He Rose from the dead. That’s Sunday

Yes,

25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Are you saying that they needed to encourage one another to attend Sunday Mass as Sunday drew closer? This is just a different rendering of the text for me, so I am trying to get your perspective.
[/quote]

There are already those who are in the habit of missing mass on Sunday. Hebrews is suggesting to motivate them to get back in the habit of going to mass. What’s new… right? And look at the consequences described for deliberately missing mass.

When 2 disciples were walking to Emmaus, the day of the resurrection, Sunday, they met Jesus only they didn’t recognize Him until He said the blessing and broke the bread Luke 24:28-30 RSVCE - So they drew near to the village to - Bible Gateway

I find this one very convincing. The text is quite clear that “they recognized him in the breaking of the Bread”. It seems as if the whole story is centered around convincing the disciples that He is present in the breaking of the bread.
[/quote]

And Maybe it was needed to convince THOSE disciples

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Thanks for that reference! Yes, I agree the Church sees this as a reference to the Mass. But this would still be valid even if "the Day" referred to the Day of judgment.
[/quote]

Do you know when judgement Day is?

guanophore:

And I am not sure that it is a convincing reference to a person who denies the Real Presence. Those who deny this still hold that it is important to go to Church on Sunday, citing the same passage!

Look how many “disciples” left Jesus in [Jn6:66] and Jesus was doing the teaching. Jesus told us in advance, few are saved. The reason is, people insist on exercising their will over doing Our Lord’s will

 

[guanophore]

Even Jesus didn’t convince everyone He spoke to

Certainly not! And it sounds like, even the Apostles were not necessarily convinced either. They knew He had the words of eternal life, but they did not understand what He meant about eating His Body and Blood. Somehow, they got from where they were in John 6 to an unshakable faith in the real presence. How did it happen?

It’s not a competition between emphasis. The passage I quoted from , describes the mass and the Church via the CCC, teaches it’s a reference to the mass

I understand that. But Lutherans and Anglicans also celebrate liturgy/Mass, and don’t believe in the Real Presence.

And look at the consequences described for deliberately missing mass.

I will agree to disagree with you on this point.

And Maybe it was needed to convince THOSE disciples

Don’t you think that speaks to the thread topic?

Do you know when judgement Day is?

I will agree to disagree with you on this point also.

The reason is, people insist on exercising their will over doing Our Lord’s will

Is this your response to the thread topic?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Even Jesus didn’t convince everyone He spoke to

Certainly not! And it sounds like, even the Apostles were not necessarily convinced either. They knew He had the words of eternal life, but they did not understand what He meant about eating His Body and Blood. Somehow, they got from where they were in John 6 to an unshakable faith in the real presence. How did it happen?

Post pentecost, different story

It’s not a competition between emphasis. The passage I quoted from , describes the mass and the Church via the CCC, teaches it’s a reference to the mass

guanophore:

I understand that. But Lutherans and Anglicans also celebrate liturgy/Mass, and don’t believe in the Real Presence.

They’re just 2 of 10’s of thousands of Protestant heresies.

And look at the consequences described for deliberately missing mass.

guanophore:

I will agree to disagree with you on this point.

I’ve given my proof properly referenced.

And Maybe it was needed to convince THOSE disciples

guanophore:

Don’t you think that speaks to the thread topic?

Pentecost was 50 days after the resurrection. Post Pentecost the realities were far different

Do you know when judgement Day is?

guanophore:

I will agree to disagree with you on this point also.

Look at the context of the noted passages. Judgement Day doesn’t fit the context.

The reason is, people insist on exercising their will over doing Our Lord’s will

guanophore:

Is this your response to the thread topic?

Look at the context of my response

 

[guanophore]

Post pentecost, different story

I agree, but what was it about Pentecost that made them believe in the Real Presence that they did not before? Saying the Spirit gave witness to them is certainly the case, but witness to what?

They’re just 2 of 10’s of thousands of Protestant heresies.

I think you missed my point. I am saying that those who do not believe in the Real Presence also take that verse in Hebrews as a commandment to gather on Sunday.

Look at the context of the noted passages. Judgement Day doesn’t fit the context.

Obviously the editors of the RSVCE thought differently, as they linked 2 verses to that one that pertain to Judgment day.

Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence? Apologetics

I know I am playing the devil’s advocate here. How do you know this consequence refers to failing to attend Mass, rather than falling away from grace (denying the Lord after having received initiation into the Sacraments)? There were some parts of the world, where there were no priests or very infrequent visits by priests, that may not have had a Mass for weeks or months. If Judgment Day was near, would they not maybe meet daily? In Acts it describes that they did so. The Revised Standard…

Look at the context of my response

The reason I am asking is because the context of your response does not seem consistent with the thread topic.