Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence?

[guanophore]

Post pentecost, different story

I agree, but what was it about Pentecost that made them believe in the Real Presence that they did not before? Saying the Spirit gave witness to them is certainly the case, but witness to what?

They’re just 2 of 10’s of thousands of Protestant heresies.

I think you missed my point. I am saying that those who do not believe in the Real Presence also take that verse in Hebrews as a commandment to gather on Sunday.

Look at the context of the noted passages. Judgement Day doesn’t fit the context.

Obviously the editors of the RSVCE thought differently, as they linked 2 verses to that one that pertain to Judgment day.

Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence? Apologetics

I know I am playing the devil’s advocate here. How do you know this consequence refers to failing to attend Mass, rather than falling away from grace (denying the Lord after having received initiation into the Sacraments)? There were some parts of the world, where there were no priests or very infrequent visits by priests, that may not have had a Mass for weeks or months. If Judgment Day was near, would they not maybe meet daily? In Acts it describes that they did so. The Revised Standard…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Post pentecost, different story

I agree, but what was it about Pentecost that made them believe in the Real Presence that they did not before? Saying the Spirit gave witness to them is certainly the case, but witness to what?

They’re just 2 of 10’s of thousands of Protestant heresies.

I think you missed my point. I am saying that those who do not believe in the Real Presence also take that verse in Hebrews as a commandment to gather on Sunday.

Look at the context of the noted passages. Judgement Day doesn’t fit the context.

Obviously the editors of the RSVCE thought differently, as they linked 2 verses to that one that pertain to Judgment day.

Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence? - #29 by guanophore

You mean when you say

“The Revised Standard is giving two cross references to this, one is I Cor. 3:13, the other Rom. 13:12 In both cases, it seems to be a reference to the day of judgment.”

I quoted Hebrews 10:25 from the RSV-CE. There is no footnote on “Day” in that translation. I checked the Douay as well. No such footnote reference. So I ask, How do your references from 1 Cor, and Romans, cross reference “Day” in Hebrews 10:25 to mean Day of judgement?

Re: Pentecost

Jesus tells His apostles what will happen when the HS comes (Pentecost) John 14:25-26 RSVCE - “These things I have spoken to you, - Bible Gateway .

And John 16:12-15 RSVCE - “I have yet many things to say to - Bible Gateway

as a result, of the HS, Peoples eyes and minds are opened. Truth is seen. And they are then different people.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Post pentecost, different story

I agree, but what was it about Pentecost that made them believe in the Real Presence that they did not before? Saying the Spirit gave witness to them is certainly the case, but witness to what?

As Jesus said, He had much more to tell them but they couldn’y hear it then. But when the HS comes, He will cause them to remember all that Jesus taught them. IOW. post Pentecost they will be different people. Eyes and mind open with the ability to understand all that Jesus taught them

Look at the context of the noted passages. Judgement Day doesn’t fit the context.

guanophore:

Obviously the editors of the RSVCE thought differently, as they linked 2 verses to that one that pertain to Judgment day.

I quoted Heb 10:25 from the RSV-CE as my reference. Please show me where “Day” in Heb 10:25 has the footnote identifying “Day” in that passage means “judgement Day”.

I checked the following translations
NRSV , NASB, NABRE, NIV, RSV, and none of those translations have any footnote on “Day” in Heb 10:25

Look at the context of my response

guanophore:

The reason I am asking is because the context of your response does not seem consistent with the thread topic.

I showed where it does.

Here Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence? - #22 by steve-b
and here Why did early Christians believe in the Real Presence? - #32 by steve-b

 

[guanophore]

You mean when you say

“The Revised Standard is giving two cross references to this, one is I Cor. 3:13, the other Rom. 13:12 In both cases, it seems to be a reference to the day of judgment.”

I quoted Hebrews 10:25 from the RSV-CE. There is no footnote on “Day” in that translation. I checked the Douay as well. No such footnote reference. So I ask, How do your references from 1 Cor, and Romans, cross reference “Day” in Hebrews 10:25 to mean Day of judgement?

I am sorry I guess it was from Verbum so I can’t give you a link. I can give a paragraph from Haydock though.

Ver. 25. Not forsaking our assembly. S. Chrys. understands the assemblies of Christians, where they met to celebrate the divine mysteries. Others expound it of not leaving the faith and communion of the Catholic Church by turning apostates: this is confirmed by the following words: for if we sin wilfully, … there is now left no sacrifice for sins. The Novatian heretics understood no pardon for sins after baptism. S. Chrys. and others understood no second baptism, wherewith to be cleansed in the same manner as before; but the most probable interpretation, and most agreeable to the text and doctrine of S. Paul, seems to be, that now remained no sacrifice for sins, i.e. no other sacrifice but that of Christ, which the apostate renouncing, by quitting and abandoning his faith, thereby cuts himself off from the very groundwork and foundation of salvation, as long as he continues in his apostacy. So that nothing remains for him but a dreadful expectation of God’s just and severe judgments. Wi.

This seems to indicate that the reference is to apostasy, rather than penalties for not attending Mass, but it does not have any specific reference to “the Day”

 

[guanophore]

As Jesus said, He had much more to tell them but they couldn’y hear it then. But when the HS comes, He will cause them to remember all that Jesus taught them. IOW. post Pentecost they will be different people. Eyes and mind open with the ability to understand all that Jesus taught them

So you are saying what caused the Early Christians to believe in the Real Presence is that, after Pentecost, the HS caused them to “remember” or "“understand” this truth that they did not grasp sooner?

I checked the following translations

NRSV , NASB, NABRE, NIV, RSV, and none of those translations have any footnote on “Day” in Heb 10:25

I will look more to see where I found it.

I showed where it does.

In that case, I will drop the matter.

 

[guanophore]

Found it!

Hebrews, CHAPTER 10 | USCCB

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You mean when you say

“The Revised Standard is giving two cross references to this, one is I Cor. 3:13, the other Rom. 13:12 In both cases, it seems to be a reference to the day of judgment.”

I quoted Hebrews 10:25 from the RSV-CE. There is no footnote on “Day” in that translation. I checked the Douay as well. No such footnote reference. So I ask, How do your references from 1 Cor, and Romans, cross reference “Day” in Hebrews 10:25 to mean Day of judgement?

I am sorry I guess it was from Verbum so I can’t give you a link. I can give a paragraph from Haydock though.

Ver. 25. Not forsaking our assembly. S. Chrys. understands the assemblies of Christians, where they met to celebrate the divine mysteries. Others expound it of not leaving the faith and communion of the Catholic Church by turning apostates: this is confirmed by the following words: for if we sin wilfully, … there is now left no sacrifice for sins. The Novatian heretics understood no pardon for sins after baptism. S. Chrys. and others understood no second baptism, wherewith to be cleansed in the same manner as before; but the most probable interpretation, and most agreeable to the text and doctrine of S. Paul, seems to be, that now remained no sacrifice for sins, i.e. no other sacrifice but that of Christ, which the apostate renouncing, by quitting and abandoning his faith, thereby cuts himself off from the very groundwork and foundation of salvation, as long as he continues in his apostacy. So that nothing remains for him but a dreadful expectation of God’s just and severe judgments. Wi.

This seems to indicate that the reference is to apostasy, rather than penalties for not attending Mass, but it does not have any specific reference to "the Day"

As I was saying, “the Day” in Hebrews 10:25 doesn’t apply to judgement Day but the Day of meeting, i.e. Sunday, the Lord’s Day, going to mass and celebrating the Eucharist.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

As Jesus said, He had much more to tell them but they couldn’y hear it then. But when the HS comes, He will cause them to remember all that Jesus taught them. IOW. post Pentecost they will be different people. Eyes and mind open with the ability to understand all that Jesus taught them

So you are saying what caused the Early Christians to believe in the Real Presence is that, after Pentecost, the HS caused them to “remember” or "“understand” this truth that they did not grasp sooner?

It’s not me saying it, it’s Jesus

I checked the following translations

NRSV , NASB, NABRE, NIV, RSV, and none of those translations have any footnote on “Day” in Heb 10:25

guanophore:

I will look more to see where I found it.

 

[steve-b]

Found it!

http://www.usccb.org/bible/hebrews/10#65010025-r

seems to be a conflict there.

From The CCC
(emphasis mine)

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

The context quoted from Heb 10:25 in the CCC, refers to the Day of worship. NOT judgement Day.

 

[guanophore]

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

It is not a contradiction. The passage clearly instructs the believers to meet together, it just does not specify which day (Sunday). In Acts, we see the disciples meeting daily!

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

Indeed, every day is a good day to come to Church early, go to confession, and spend time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament.

The Church changed the Sabbath day of rests from Saturday to Sunday, but every day is a day the Lord has made, in which we should rejoice and be glad.

The context quoted from Heb 10:25 in the CCC, refers to the Day of worship. NOT judgement Day.

I will leave you to it. I have provided the page where I found the Bible links that go with The Day being judgment day. Catholics are free to interpret the Scriptures privately in any manner, so long as it does not contradict the Teaching of the Church. I do not think you are bound in any way to see this as it was traditionally interpreted, and substitute your idea of “Sunday” as “the Day”.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

It is not a contradiction. The passage clearly instructs the believers to meet together, it just does not specify which day (Sunday). In Acts, we see the disciples meeting daily!

"Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

guanophore:

Indeed, every day is a good day to come to Church early, go to confession, and spend time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament.

steve-b:

“Every day”, is NOT the context of Hebrews 10:25.

guanophore:

The Church changed the Sabbath day of rests from Saturday to Sunday, but every day is a day the Lord has made, in which we should rejoice and be glad.

No the Church did NOT change the Sabbath. The Sabbath is still the Sabbath. Sunday is the Lors’s day for us. I’ve been to the holy land. I’ve been to Jerusalem. The Sabbath begins on Friday eve, and ends Saturday eve. On Sat eve, things return to normal. For Jews, Sunday is just a regular day.

The Catholic Church otoh, added Sunday as the day of worship because it’s the Lord’s day He resurrected from the dead. Ever wonder why Saturday vigil that counts for Sunday mass, happens Saturday eve and not before that? Saturday mass on Saturday morning, does NOT count for Sunday mass. That WOULD only count on Sat eve mass.

The Church didn’t change the Sabbath.

The context quoted from Heb 10:25 in the CCC, refers to the Day of worship. NOT judgement Day.

guanophore:

I will leave you to it. I have provided the page where I found the Bible links that go with The Day being judgment day.

steve-b:

And I showed the CCC where it shows it doesn’t.

guanophore:

Catholics are free to interpret the Scriptures privately in any manner, so long as it does not contradict the Teaching of the Church. I do not think you are bound in any way to see this as it was traditionally interpreted, and substitute your idea of “Sunday” as “the Day”.

steve-b:

I didn’t substitute anything. I gave quotes from the CCC.

 

[guanophore]

The Church didn’t change the Sabbath.

For the record, I agree.

Christians no longer observe the Jewish Sabbath. There is nothing in Scripture that says the observance of the Lord’s Day should change from Saturday to Sunday. If you read the older documents of the Church, it is clear that Sunday is treated as the Sabbath.

Q. 1242. What is the third Commandment?

A. The third Commandment is: Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Q. 1243. What are we commanded by the third Commandment?

A. By the third Commandment we are commanded to keep holy the Lord’s day and the holydays of obligation, on which we are to give our time to the service and worship of God.

Q. 1244. What are holydays of obligation?

A. Holydays of obligation are special feasts of the Church on which we are bound, under pain of mortal sin, to hear Mass and to keep from servile or bodily labors when it can be done without great loss or inconvenience. Whoever, on account of their circumstances, cannot give up work on holydays of obligation should make every effort to hear Mass and should also explain in confession the necessity of working on holydays.

Q. 1245. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?

A. We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works.

http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson32.htm

And I showed the CCC where it shows it doesn’t.

Actually, there is nothing in your links from the CCC that indicate that particular passage does not refer to judgment day, but I will respect your decision to interpret it that way. It may be that understanding “The Day” as Sunday somehow enriches your spiritual life, and that is important to support.

I didn’t substitute anything. I gave quotes from the CCC.

Yes, but your quotes do not indicate that we are obligated to interpret Heb. 10:25 to mean “Sunday”. That means that a Catholic can interpret it to mean “Sunday” if it is personally meaningful.