Why did God ask Job “a man” to pray and intercede for his friends, when they could have prayed directly to God, themselves? (Job 42:7-9)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jimmy_B

Guest
Why did God ask job “a man” to pray and intercede for his friends, when they could have prayed directly to God, themselves? (Job 42:7-9)

Job 42:7-9
7 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.
8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer. (Job (
 
It was simply to show Job ( the first book of the bible and as such has not revealed direct access as of yet ) that his friends opinions were “foolish”.
 
I assume your question is to serve as a point in the “Why do Catholics Pray to Saints” discussion. I’ve had this discussion several times with my Protestant friends, and while I’ve never used this verse, I can guess the answer: Job isn’t dead. There are many places in the bible where we are told to pray for one another, and this passage is just an example of that consistent admonition.

I’d love to see more (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic, as I’ve never gotten past the line my friends draw at death. Even in Revelations, the “prayers of the saints,” they take to mean ONLY the saints on earth (i.e. the alive ones).
 
Here is a detailed explanation, found in the on-line Catholic Encyclopedia.

Here are some quotes from that page:
New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Catholic teaching regarding prayers for the dead is bound up inseparably with the doctrine of purgatory and the more general doctrine of the communion of the saints,”

*“Coming to the *proof of this doctrine, we find, in the first place, that it is an integral part of the great general truth which we name the communion of saints.”
Click to expand...
Here is another good source on this topic:
By Paul Flanagan and Robert Schihl, Catholic Biblical Apologetics:

*Christians from the earliest centuries of the Church have expressed their communion with those who have died by praying for the dead. *

*Inscriptions in the Roman catacombs indicate that the early Christians honored and prayed for their deceased relatives and friends. *

*Tertullian (211) *
*Wrote that Christians offered prayer… for the deceased on the anniversaries of their death. *

*St. Augustine (354 - 430) *
Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church,…
Click to expand...
Rom 6:3-4

Col 2:12
 
Can I vote that this be moved to the non-catholic section? Or even the Sacred Scripture section? I think its a great question.
 
Because some people’s prayer is more powerful than others.

“[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
 
mikijam said:
I assume your question is to serve as a point in the “Why do Catholics Pray to Saints” discussion. I’ve had this discussion several times with my Protestant friends, and while I’ve never used this verse, I can guess the answer: Job isn’t dead. There are many places in the bible where we are told to pray for one another, and this passage is just an example of that consistent admonition.

I’d love to see more (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic, as I’ve never gotten past the line my friends draw at death. Even in Revelations, the “prayers of the saints,” they take to mean ONLY the saints on earth (i.e. the alive ones).
Click to expand...
Hello mikijam,

Actually, this tread was created to simply address intercessory prayer. Job here is “interceding” for his friends and they (his friends) are not praying directly to God, which is supposedly another issue that many Protestants have with Catholicism. This counters the confusion and bad interpretation involving the verse (which is often wrongly used agaisnt the Catholic Church) where; in Matthew 6:8; “*Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him”, *and the misconception that there exist conflict in the Bible. There is no conflict in the Bible, when understood in context.

My experience has been; for example, If you show a Protestant where the bible supports intercessory prayer, as in then case, then without skipping a beat, they will move to the next question, without stopping to realize the their initial belief was wrong and therefore their religion was/is wrong…

This also holds true for many false Protestant beliefs regarding, Catholic doctrine and Mary, the Mother of God…

Moreover, I believe that many non-Catholics (and some Catholics also) are unaware of the verses that I have provided.

This is just another example of why the entire bible (in context) is important and not just a handful of verses. The Bible is a “Catholic Book”, so it would naturally follow that it (the Bible) would support Catholicism, which it does.

One-step at a time…On-step at a time…

One day all of our protestant friends will cease protesting and come home to Christ’s One True Church, the Roman Catholic Church. All of Catholicism can be explain and is supported in the Bible, the famous works by early Saints, Doctors of the Church and early Popes (especially 1,2nd and 3rd centuries) and by Christian tradition and early Christian history.

Note: mikijam, I know that you are Catholic and that we agree. I have used part of my response here to address the broader audience here at CAF and not you specifically. I hope you don’t mind.
 
I think Protestants have divided God’s kingdom into departments. God’s family in heaven are in a seperate department from God’s family on earth. God then, loves the ones in heaven differently from the ones on earth. This is unhistorical, unbiblical, illogical, and heretical.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello mikijam,

My experience has been; for example, If you show a Protestant where the bible supports intercessory prayer, as in then case, then without skipping a beat, they will move to the next question, without stopping to realize the their initial belief was wrong and therefore their religion was/is wrong…
Click to expand...
I’ve had a few discussions with Protestants regarding this type of argument, “God supports X, because here God commands Person Y to do X.” A very common rebuttal, is this: “God commanded Person Y to do X. God did not command all Persons to do X. Therefore, it is not a universal rule.”

For example, using the passage in question:
“Yes of course God commanded Job to pray for Eliphaz, Zophar, and Bildadt, but it does not mean that he commands US to do so.”

Apply the same argument to graven images:
Catholic: “God commanded that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes, what God is forbidding in the 2nd commandment is idolatry.”
Protestant: “Just because God commands ONE person make a graven image, it doesn’t mean everyone should be making them. Where did God explicitly command that everyone should make for themselves a graven image?”

I hope this helps you see it from another point of view. If you think that you are “showing a Protestant where the bible supports intercessory prayer”, make sure you show them it is a universal rule, and not a rule that applies only to a single person.

How would you reply to this argument regarding the passage in question? Do you consider it valid?

I know this is a little off-topic, but because you started the thread, and then changed it’s course a bit (to discussion w/ Protestants regarding the passage), I felt it was OK to reply to you…I hope it helps.

John
 
JohnL said:
I’ve had a few discussions with Protestants regarding this type of argument, “God supports X, because here God commands Person Y to do X.” A very common rebuttal, is this: “God commanded Person Y to do X. God did not command all Persons to do X. Therefore, it is not a universal rule.”

For example, using the passage in question:
“Yes of course God commanded Job to pray for Eliphaz, Zophar, and Bildadt, but it does not mean that he commands US to do so.”

Apply the same argument to graven images:
Catholic: “God commanded that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes, what God is forbidding in the 2nd commandment is idolatry.”
Protestant: “Just because God commands ONE person make a graven image, it doesn’t mean everyone should be making them. Where did God explicitly command that everyone should make for themselves a graven image?”

I hope this helps you see it from another point of view. If you think that you are “showing a Protestant where the bible supports intercessory prayer”, make sure you show them it is a universal rule, and not a rule that applies only to a single person.

How would you reply to this argument regarding the passage in question? Do you consider it valid?

I know this is a little off-topic, but because you started the thread, and then changed it’s course a bit (to discussion w/ Protestants regarding the passage), I felt it was OK to reply to you…I hope it helps.

John
Click to expand...
Thank you JohnL,
I’ve had a few discussions with Protestants regarding this type of argument, “God supports X, because here God commands Person Y to do X.” A very common rebuttal, is this: “God commanded Person Y to do X. God did not command all Persons to do X. Therefore, it is not a universal rule.”
Click to expand...
The purpose of this thread was to address a single example of intercessory prayer, that I believe is often overlooked. Catholics do not use a single verse or example to try and demonstrate a “universal rule”. I am sure you know as a fellow Catholic that there exists many examples of intercessory prayers in the Bible.
I am looking forward to any arguments similar to the one that you have described here.
Apply the same argument to graven imagesCatholic: “God commanded that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes, what God is forbidding in the 2nd commandment is idolatry.”
Protestant: “Just because God commands ONE person make a graven image, it doesn’t mean everyone should be making them. Where did God explicitly command that everyone should make for themselves a graven image?”
Click to expand...
I undersatnd your point here, However, this is an entire topic all by itself. My short response is; In recent years some Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians have adopted a new Protestant version of the Ten Commandments where the Second Commandment has been changed (and added) to include “graven images” and the last two Commandments regarding “coveting” were combined so that there would still be ten. This is however a fairly recent development, probably within the last fifty years or so, most of the early Protestant religions actually accept a version of the Ten Commandments similar to our own (Catholic) Ten Commandments, where “graven images” are not forbidden.
I hope this helps you see it from another point of view. If you think that you are “showing a Protestant where the bible supports intercessory prayer”, make sure you show them it is a universal rule, and not a rule that applies only to a single person.
Click to expand...
Thank you , it does, but like I have already stated this thread was intended to specifically address one example of intercessory prayer.
How would you reply to this argument regarding the passage in question? Do you consider it valid?
I know this is a little off-topic, but because you started the thread, and then changed it’s course a bit (to discussion w/ Protestants regarding the passage), I felt it was OK to reply to you…I hope it helps.
Click to expand...
Yes, all very valid points, thank you and I would have to agree that my Protestant friends, do at times, take me off topic. 😃
 
Job was righteous in God’s eyes"my servant Job" and it was probably a lesson in humility for his"friends"who thought they were righteous .Or he could be acting as a prophet like abraham and Moses -also friends of God- who interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah and Hebrews after the golden Calf.NT calls for believers to prayer for each other.If that ain’t intercessory prayer- I don’t know what is!🙂
 
I had a conversation with an ex-Catholic who is now a Baptist,and she said that we can’t ask Mary for her prayers to her Son because shes in a place where she can’t hear me.

My response…

“God has Mary locked up?”

Ephesians 3:14-15
14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15from whom every **family in heaven and on earth **derives its name,

1 Corinthians 12:12
12For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Romans 8:38-39
38For I am convinced that** neither death, nor life**, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,
will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 22:32
32’I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’?
**He is not the God of the dead but of the living." **

Luke 15:7
7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more
joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Hebrews 12

1Therefore, since we have so great a **cloud of witnesses **surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

We are a family both in heaven and on earth,one body,surrounded by a cloud of witnesses who rejoice when we repent. Still connected.
 
Here is a thread I started today at CAF that lists Bible verses, which support Intercessory Prayer, Communion of the Saints and as Prostants put it, “praying to dead people”. 👍
 
Jimmy_B said:
Here is a thread I started today at CAF that lists Bible verses, which support Intercessory Prayer, Communion of the Saints and as Prostants put it, “praying to dead people”. 👍
Click to expand...
Jimmy I hope I don’t get on your bad side here, but I am trying to further my apologetic aptitude. You posted a great number of verses in what I would consider a “shotgun” argument. Perhaps quoting so much scripture that perhaps one or two will stick? I don’t understand the approach, as a good portion of the passages don’t support the hypothesis nor contain anything that Protestants would object to. For example, in Matthew 17:1-3, the Lord is conversing with Moses and Elijah. I don’t think you’ll find a Protestant among us that doesn’t believe that the Lord can talk to anyone (living or dead) that he wants.

A good number of the verses you cited support: prayers to God, prayers to God on someones behalf, that we are alive even in death, imitation of Jesus, etc. These don’t show prayers to the dead, or prayers for the dead. You also use references from the Deuterocanonical books, you’ll have a hard time getting a Protestant to read those.

I’m a Roman Catholic, and I believe that the Christ’s Church is correct in it’s beliefs. We don’t have a beef here…I’d just like to determine if there is a better way to show “praying to dead people” has scriptural support.

I don’t think it would be worth while to attempt to refute your premise in all 42 of your passages from scripture…If you could pick 5, what would they be? Would you be able to defend the assertion that they show that we could/should address the dead in prayer? I am really interested in this topic…

The best scriptural support for prayers addressing someone other than the Lord that I have seen, and that you omit, is in Psalm 130, verse 20. David address the angels directly, instead of directly addressing God. I even looked through Calvin and Clarke’s commentary regarding the matter, they both agree that David is addressing angels and not the Lord. The problem with this argument is that the Psalms are poems, and not necessarily prayers – though may Protestants do indeed pray the psalms.

(I know that this is also done in Psalm 148:2, but I haven’t had time to do any real research into what Protestant scholars believe regarding the passage.)

Thanks,

John
 
Hello JohnL,

I am glad you brought this up because it allows me to illustrate a few things about Catholicism, verses “Protestantism”.

Let me start by stating that, although I appreciate much of what you have posted here, I will have to respectively disagree with you.

Sometimes the display massive overwhelming fire power, or as in this case, the display of massive overwhelming evidence, is appropriate.

Please do not confuse me with a “Protestant”, many of whom use a “handful” of verses to define their entire religion. Catholic’s do not define their faith using a “handful” of Bible verses; this is one of the major distinctions that separate our faiths.

Note: I know that you do not confuse me with a Protestant.

Our Catholic faith has been defined over hundreds of years and the formation of the Bible “, “in the hands of Catholics”, occurred over several hundred years. It is important for our Protestant friends to understand this.

Christianity cannot be summed up in a paragraph or by using a “handful” of Bible verses, by attempting to do so, minimize the Bible and Christianity itself and it hides the truth.

The Catholic Church is not a religion of “sound-bites”.

Additionally, we (Catholics) do not believe that there exists any conflict in the Bible or any conflict between Bible verses. Where on the other hand, many Protestant need to “show” a conflict in order to make a Bible verse, “Protestant” and anti-Catholic.

We see no conflict, because we (Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church) view the Bible in context.

It is not possible for me to post a verse that does not support Catholicism, in one way or another, because the Bible is a “Catholic Book” and the entire Bible, every verse, supports Catholicism.

Additionally, the Old Testament mirrors the New Testament.

If a Bible verse isn’t readily or instantly identifiable as being a “Catholic” verse, all that is needed is the proper “context”, to bring the verse into focus.

All of the verses that I provided came from various Catholic Apologetic sources including some very good books I have.

As various disputes arise, I will comment on why the verse is applicable and how it supports Catholicism.

Thank you for your post. 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top