Why did God create a world were babies are killed?

[seekerz]

Death (whether through illness or natural phenomena) is not the worst thing that can happen to a person - eternal separation from God is.

Although death came into this world through man’s sin, for the believer it is already conquered because it is just a portal on the pathway of eternal life. Sure, death results in temporary separation from loved ones, but it also leads to permanent union with the source of all love.

It’s through death that we get to live with Christ forever and,viewed in that context it can be seen as a beautiful opportunity rather than something terrible to be avoided at all costs. Which is why St Paul, I believe, could say: to live is Christ, to die is gain…

It’s all in your perspective.

 

[VociMike]

I was responding to a specific poster who seems to take the position that we cannot know that earthquakes, floods, and disease have been around since before humans even existed.

OK, I would strongly disagree with that poster. To the extent that we can interpret the data (pretty good in this case), we must reconcile the historic and prehistoric reality with the faith. I myself am very critical of the line of thinking among bible literalists that suggests e.g. that God placed fake (old) fossils in the young earth to “test our faith”. Arrgh!!

 

[catharina]

First, I meant where not were in the title. Can this be fixed?

And I am not talking about evil. I am talking about natural things that kill babies. These have nothing to do with free will or man choosing to commit evil. These things existed before humans even evolved and have been killing humans since they first appeared. They are not in any way connected to free will or choices made by man.

Yet they surely are conncected to free will and choosing evil.

Those who die in periods of natural disaster - floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, famines - are most often the very poor. They are living on lands fraught with danger, lands with history of “natural disasters.” If all of us were perfectly generous, we wouldn’t be allowing that kind of desperate choice. Nor would we tolerate deaths due to famines since in our time, the events of famine can be predicted and the deaths could be avoided. I think these are situations where God would (i.e., truly does) approve of our assisting one another.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Although death came into this world through man’s sin, for the believer it is already conquered because it is just a portal on the pathway of eternal life. Sure, death results in temporary separation from loved ones, but it also leads to permanent union with the source of all love.

How did death come into the world through man’s sin if death was in the world before man?

 

[theistgal]

Why do bad things happen to little babies and children? Why did God create a world in which babies will be killed by earthquakes, floods, disease, etc. A friend told me that it is because of man’s fall. But things like earthquakes and floods have been around since before man even evolved? Why did God create such a universe if God loves humans? Is that idea that God is love wrong?

Please don’t say it is just a mystery.

Hi Richard - -

I am new here but I noticed your question and hope you don’t mind me responding. Until recently I was a moderator at a website for “infidels”, because for long stretches of time in my life, I have been one (either an atheist or an agnostic). So I think I know where you’re coming from. (And fwiw, I have no problem with the theory of evolution either.)

I think, though I know you won’t like to hear this, that there comes a point where you do have to say “it’s a mystery”. Because the real question isn’t just why do babies die - it’s why does ANYONE die? Not just human beings, but animals suffer and die in terrible pain, every second of every day. We see it, but feel powerless to stop it. And what’s more - we’re afraid because we know that we could be next.

The only answer I’ve found that makes sense is: The end of this life is not the end of life itself. It all hinges on whether or not you believe there is an afterlife. If you believe our death ends everything for us, then yes, you are justified in rejecting a belief in a good God, because it is so unjust for people and animals to live short, painful lives and die without having any happiness.

However - if you believe there is another life after this one, then logically you can trust, or at least hope, that the injustices of this life will somehow, some way be made good in the next life.

I believe - and I think many on this board do as well - that babies who die do not just “end”. They are taken by God to a place where there are no earthquakes, floods and disease, and live and grow in His love.

But if I didn’t believe that - I would share your frustration. And I definitely wouldn’t believe in - or serve - a God who didn’t provide that kind of justice.

I hope this helps and I’m sorry we can’t give you better answers. The only thing I can say is, none of us knows the perfect answer either. We just hope that the God we worship will prove worthy of the trust we put in Him.

 

[1ke]

I can back up evolution with actual evidence and facts.

Please do. Evolution is not a proven fact, nor does it have any bearing on the supernatural gifts given by God and bestowed upon our original parents.

Can you back up this claim with evidence and facts?

From the Catechism section on the consequences of Original Sin:

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. **Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. ****Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history. **

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.”

See also this article on the supernatural (preternatural) gifts bestowed upon our first parents.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Those who die in periods of natural disaster - floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, famines - are most often the very poor. They are living on lands fraught with danger, lands with history of “natural disasters.” If all of us were perfectly generous, we wouldn’t be allowing that kind of desperate choice. Nor would we tolerate deaths due to famines since in our time, the events of famine can be predicted and the deaths could be avoided. I think these are situations where God would (i.e., truly does) approve of our assisting one another.

So God has been using and continues to use these people as a means to end? And these natural deaths can be mitigated, but not eliminated by the actions of humans. They have been with us for all our history.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t think God did it at all.

But I do not see how God can be said to love all people if he created a world where many of them would be killed as babies. Can you explain it in simple terms?

I could attempt to do so (and will, in the course of this thread), but I’d really like to understand your objections first. Suppose that babies never died. At what age would it be OK for God to let people die, and why? If babies don’t “deserve” to die, at what point and for what reasons do people “deserve” to die?

I’m not being argumentative or defensive here, I’m really trying to work through your questions with you.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Please do. Evolution is not a proven fact, nor does it have any bearing on the supernatural gifts given by God and bestowed upon our original parents.

Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution and the theory of common descent will never be facts because theories and facts are different things. Theories are not ever proven.

You can explore the evidence for the theory of evolution here:

talkorigins.org/
evolution.berkeley.edu/

From the Catechism section on the consequences of Original Sin:

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. **Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. ****Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history. **

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.”

See also this article on the supernatural (preternatural) gifts bestowed upon our first parents.

This is not evidence. Where is the evidence for these ideas in the Catechism?

 

[1ke]

I was responding to a specific poster who seems to take the position that we cannot know that earthquakes, floods, and disease have been around since before humans even existed.

I believe you misunderstood.

Man originally had preternatural gifts from God which rendered these types of things irrelevant. Man was originally immune to such things. Original Sin changed that.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How can this be? Death and things like earthquakes, floods, and disease have been around since before humans even existed.

There was none. Before the fall the universe itself was in harmony with God’s creative plan. What proof do you have? Scientist who claim such? Did they have a time machine to prove that such happened?

 

[1ke]

Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution and the theory of common descent will never be facts because theories and facts are different things. Theories are not ever proven.

No evolution is not a “fact”. It lacks evidence. If you want to argue evolution please start a thread on that topic.

You can explore the evidence for the theory of evolution here:

talkorigins.org/
evolution.berkeley.edu/

Yawn.

This is not evidence. Where is the evidence for these ideas in the Catechism?

Are you a Catholic? You started a post about God. This would presume you believe in God. Perhaps you do not. In that case, you have improperly framed your question and I suggest you start a different thread.

 

[Richard_Powers]

I could attempt to do so (and will, in the course of this thread), but I’d really like to understand your objections first. Suppose that babies never died. At what age would it be OK for God to let people die, and why? If babies don’t “deserve” to die, at what point and for what reasons do people “deserve” to die?

I’m not being argumentative or defensive here, I’m really trying to work through your questions with you.

If I loved someone I would never kill them unless they were a danger to others and it was necessary to stop them from immediately hurting another individual. But I would especially not kill those I loved when they were defenseless babies in what are sometimes incredibly painful ways.

Would you ever say somebody loved a baby he created a situation that would cause the baby to die?

 

[theistgal]

Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution and the theory of common descent will never be facts because theories and facts are different things. Theories are not ever proven.

You can explore the evidence for the theory of evolution here:

talkorigins.org/
evolution.berkeley.edu/

This is not evidence. Where is the evidence for these ideas in the Catechism?

Hi Richard - -

I’m quite familiar with TalkOrigins.org. Are you familiar with their FAQ page about God and evolution? Nothing about the theory of evolution precludes a belief in God.

 

[Richard_Powers]

There was none. Before the fall the universe itself was in harmony with God’s creative plan. What proof do you have? Scientist who claim such? Did they have a time machine to prove that such happened?

Science does not prove things.

No evolution is not a “fact”. It lacks evidence. If you want to argue evolution please start a thread on that topic.

How do you explain drug resistant bacteria? Magic?

Yawn.

Just ignore the evidence.

Are you a Catholic? You started a post about God. This would presume you believe in God. Perhaps you do not. In that case, you have improperly framed your question and I suggest you start a different thread.

Nothing in my OP says I believe in God. The question is not improperly framed. It sounds like you do not have answer so dodge and deny science.

I believe you misunderstood.

Man originally had preternatural gifts from God which rendered these types of things irrelevant. Man was originally immune to such things. Original Sin changed that.

Where is the evidence for this?

 

[Richard_Powers]

Hi Richard - -

I’m quite familiar with TalkOrigins.org. Are you familiar with their FAQ page about God and evolution? Nothing about the theory of evolution precludes a belief in God.

I never said it did. But a proper understanding of evolution does show that man cannot be responsible for death being in the world since death was in the world before man was.

 

[seekerz]

If I loved someone I would never kill them unless they were a danger to others and it was necessary to stop them from immediately hurting another individual. But I would especially not kill those I loved when they were defenseless babies in what are sometimes incredibly painful ways.

Would you ever say somebody loved a baby he created a situation that would cause the baby to die?

You don’t seem to get it, death isn’t some final, terrible sentence. To a believer it’s just a transition to something better. What’s so terrible about going to a place where nothing bad ever happens?

And to answer your previous question, what makes you think that death existed before man did?

 

[1ke]

How do you explain drug resistant bacteria? Magic?

Macro evolution and micro evolution are completely different things.

Nothing in my OP says I believe in God. The question is not improperly framed.

You are asking about God on a Catholic website. That is a question in the realm of theology. You have been given responses from authoritative Catholic sources. You reject those.

So, exactly what consitutes “evidence” in your book?

Why are you asking the question, you do not seem to want an answer.

It sounds like you do not have answer so dodge and deny science.

No, I have the answers, you reject them. So, seems sort of pointless to go on.

If you want to ask about the existence of God then start a thread on that topic.

Your question, AS FRAMED, assumes God exists.

 

[Richard_Powers]

You don’t seem to get it, death isn’t some final, terrible sentence. To a believer it’s just a transition to something better. What’s so terrible about going to a place where nothing bad ever happens?

And to answer your previous question, what makes you think that death existed before man did?

How about having to die in horrible pain? Why would God do that to those he loves?

 

[1ke]

How about having to die in horrible pain? Why would God do that to those he loves?

God does not “do that” to anyone.