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qOcOp
Guest
Those in heaven give glory to Gods Mercy and those in hell give glory to Gods Justice. Suffering is not intrinsically evil…in fact if the suffering is on account of Gods Justice then it is most certainly good.
Why did God create if he knew some people would go to hell?
- Status
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Nicely said.
Thomism sounds beautiful. Where can I learn more about St. Thomas Aquinas’ contribitions? (Without, you know, reading the whole summa)
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catholic1seeks
Guest
This sounds more Calvin-like…
as if God made those to go to hell just to show his justice.
But of course we do not believe in double predestination.
p.s. like your signature!
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
Thomism is a whole system and should not be taken out of context, but there are many philosophers that adopt Thomistic principles, Fergus Kerr, Ralph McInerny, and one of my favorites Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, who’s “Christian Perfection and Contemplation” I recommend, but is not an easy read.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
… an interesting subject. It has been edifying to be able to read the responses.
If we are created to “ know, to love and to serve God ” , although the OP’s question is from the perspective of suffering, it is also asking by inference , Why would God create us if some of us would end up not ‘knowing, loving and serving Him ?’ None of the answers presented are possible without acknowledging the free will God gives us . *We can’t get away from free will *(how’s that for an oxymoron ?)
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Heaven cannot exist without free will - for it wouldn’t be Heaven , and even Hell testifies (in a most terrible way ) to the free will God gives men and angels. As qOcOp pointed out, in Hell, we would still serve God’s justice .
To project a little more on what Paul Infirdigno posted concerning full knowledge, and considering this comment …
God will always offer us His Mercy, be we are always free to refusesad_yes it.
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned in overabundance yet on this thread is prayer. As Catholics we are meant to be a people of prayer and any time we become separated from prayer, we tend towards an incompleteness:
“Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi”
From the perspective of someone else’s suffering ,if our concerrn is genuine, it should seem we personally would want to do what is within our power to alleviate it . Considering the OP’s question again,
From Our Blessed Mother’s words during Her fourth apparition at Fatima :
" Then looking very sad, Our Lady said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.”
…
If we are created to “ know, to love and to serve God ” , although the OP’s question is from the perspective of suffering, it is also asking by inference , Why would God create us if some of us would end up not ‘knowing, loving and serving Him ?’ None of the answers presented are possible without acknowledging the free will God gives us . *We can’t get away from free will *(how’s that for an oxymoron ?)
.Heaven cannot exist without free will - for it wouldn’t be Heaven , and even Hell testifies (in a most terrible way ) to the free will God gives men and angels. As qOcOp pointed out, in Hell, we would still serve God’s justice .
To project a little more on what Paul Infirdigno posted concerning full knowledge, and considering this comment …
At the particular judgement, those who choose Hell do know precisely that they choose it ; fully . *During our earthly pilgrimage * however, we are not aware of the full consequences of our actions - of our sins. In that sense, it is comparable with the OP’s analogy :
The demons are in Hell because they chose it - with full knowledge of the consequences of their actions at the moment of their choice . Their choice was one, eternal, definitive act . At the moment of the particular judgement , on that seam of time and eternity, it won’t be too different for us.
God will always offer us His Mercy, be we are always free to refuse
sad_yes it.One thing which hasn’t been mentioned in overabundance yet on this thread is prayer. As Catholics we are meant to be a people of prayer and any time we become separated from prayer, we tend towards an incompleteness:
“Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi”
From the perspective of someone else’s suffering ,if our concerrn is genuine, it should seem we personally would want to do what is within our power to alleviate it . Considering the OP’s question again,
I believe one may answer: Souls do not go to Hell because God created them.
From Our Blessed Mother’s words during Her fourth apparition at Fatima :
" Then looking very sad, Our Lady said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.”
…
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catholictiger
Guest
we are just confusing him lol, Just kidding but if we truly do know that our actions are leading us to hell why do we do them. I think people who don’t know God aren’t saying I know that doing this will send me to hell, I don’t think they think that. Maybe before their death or right after death they see their actions lead them to hell, but while here on earth I don’t think someone who doesn’t know God thinks his actions are leading him to hell.… an interesting subject. It has been edifying to be able to read the responses.
If we are created to “ know, to love and to serve God ” , although the OP’s question is from the perspective of suffering, it is also asking by inference , Why would God create us if some of us would end up not ‘knowing, loving and serving Him ?’ None of the answers presented are possible without acknowledging the free will God gives us . *We can’t get away from free will *(how’s that for an oxymoron ?)
Heaven cannot exist without free will - for it wouldn’t be Heaven , and even Hell testifies (in a most terrible way ) to the free will God gives men and angels. As qOcOp pointed out, in Hell, we would still serve God’s justice .
To project a little more on what Paul Infirdigno posted concerning full knowledge, and considering this comment …
At the particular judgement, those who choose Hell do know precisely that they choose it ; fully . *During our earthly pilgrimage * however, we are not aware of the full consequences of our actions - of our sins. In that sense, it is comparable with the OP’s analogy :
The demons are in Hell because they chose it - with full knowledge of the consequences of their actions at the moment of their choice . Their choice was one, eternal, definitive act . At the moment of the particular judgement , on that seam of time and eternity, it won’t be too different for us.
God will always offer us His Mercy, be we are always free to refuse
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned in overabundance yet on this thread is prayer. As Catholics we are meant to be a people of prayer and any time we become separated from prayer, we tend towards an incompleteness:
“Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi”
From the perspective of someone else’s suffering ,if our concerrn is genuine, it should seem we personally would want to do what is within our power to alleviate it . Considering the OP’s question again,
I believe one may answer: Souls do not go to Hell because God created them.
From Our Blessed Mother’s words during Her fourth apparition at Fatima :
" Then looking very sad, Our Lady said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.”
…
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qOcOp
Guest
God made us all to love, honor, and serve Him. No one is predestined for heaven or hell, however, this does not change the fact that those in heaven serve God and those in hell serve God. Not to mention the punishment of hell is a just punishment for the life the person freely chose to live and so hell is in its own way is a good thing.
Thank you.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
To address the last few posts, without having to quote each one,
Then I guess the main problem would be: why would God allow people to go to hell if their damnation is the result of ignorant choices? Mortal sins are supposed to be “no’s” to God; however, their rejection of God and the preferal to hell is not explicit, I don’t think. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, I think it only makes sense for a person to go to hell if he consciously wills to go to hell/reject God.
We can get the demons “off the hook,” since it is commonly known that their choice for or against God was total and full; they didn’t lack knowledge; they knew their consequences fully. (Though I would still have trouble understanding why God would create the angels, especially since they were created individually and not dependently like humans are, knowing that 1/3 would fall and therefore suffer. At least this is easier to grasp than the human’s case.)
To connect those two paragraphs, I guess the problem is that mortal sin sends one to hell because certain acts are supposed to be intrinsically grave—However, the sins don’t necessarily involve a conscious/explicit “no” to God and “yes” to hell. So how can humans’ going to hell be the result of true freedom. It’s not like what the angels had…?
So you see where the analogy posted way up there—about the smoker—gets me. True, the smoker chooses something that’s bad for him; but he does not choose to die.
Then I guess the main problem would be: why would God allow people to go to hell if their damnation is the result of ignorant choices? Mortal sins are supposed to be “no’s” to God; however, their rejection of God and the preferal to hell is not explicit, I don’t think. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, I think it only makes sense for a person to go to hell if he consciously wills to go to hell/reject God.
We can get the demons “off the hook,” since it is commonly known that their choice for or against God was total and full; they didn’t lack knowledge; they knew their consequences fully. (Though I would still have trouble understanding why God would create the angels, especially since they were created individually and not dependently like humans are, knowing that 1/3 would fall and therefore suffer. At least this is easier to grasp than the human’s case.)
To connect those two paragraphs, I guess the problem is that mortal sin sends one to hell because certain acts are supposed to be intrinsically grave—However, the sins don’t necessarily involve a conscious/explicit “no” to God and “yes” to hell. So how can humans’ going to hell be the result of true freedom. It’s not like what the angels had…?
So you see where the analogy posted way up there—about the smoker—gets me. True, the smoker chooses something that’s bad for him; but he does not choose to die.
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shoe
Guest
I think that Romans 9:21-23 may throw a little light on the question “Why did God create if he knew some people would go to hell”: “Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory.” I think that God has made all people, both those who choose to rebel against Him and those who choose to follow Him, with His image within them; and that He therefore has given each person, whether good or bad, some creative knowledge that can benefit all mankind, such as the knowledge of science, medicine, and technology.
I think another way of looking at it is that if God had not created people with a choice to either follow or rebel against His loving commandments, then we probably would be something other than human, and we would also lack the ability to be aware of God’s love. It was the crucifixion of Jesus, by the truly wicked people (the people who had lied, mocked, and nailed Him to the cross) that made it possible for God to show His love for us and at the same time to make us worthy to dwell with Him throughout eternity. And God’s sacrifice of His Son also made it possible for the “truly wicked” to be forgiven, as the Bible says in Luke 23:34: “And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And 2 Peter 3:9 reads that God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
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ddarko
Guest
First, God obviously does not send someone to hell who acts out of INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. But keep in mind, natural law, in its basic sense is accessible to almost everyone apart from a mental impediment. So one cannot in general claim invincible ignorance with respect to everything.
But in short, if someone is in the category of invincible ignorance, then their acts are not sins.
Secondly, if one chooses a sinful act, knowing it is sinful, but not as a means to reach hell, it is still a choice to choose something God dislikes.
So to give you an analogy now, if one might say “I don’t reject you as a friend”, but they deliberately keep doing things that you dislike, its hard for you to be together, right? It would also not be proper for you to forcefully make her be with you and make her NOT do those things. No matter how much she says she wants to be with you, if she still loves doing those things, then you have no choice but to let go. On the other hand, if she is trying to quit those acts, you would do all you can to help her so that she can be with you. And that is sort of how God operates.
God Bless
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Paul_Infirdigno
Guest
All i have to say to this is Yes.First, God obviously does not send someone to hell who acts out of INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE. But keep in mind, natural law, in its basic sense is accessible to almost everyone apart from a mental impediment. So one cannot in general claim invincible ignorance with respect to everything.
But in short, if someone is in the category of invincible ignorance, then their acts are not sins.
Secondly, if one chooses a sinful act, knowing it is sinful, but not as a means to reach hell, it is still a choice to choose something God dislikes.
So to give you an analogy now, if one might say “I don’t reject you as a friend”, but they deliberately keep doing things that you dislike, its hard for you to be together, right? It would also not be proper for you to forcefully make her be with you and make her NOT do those things. No matter how much she says she wants to be with you, if she still loves doing those things, then you have no choice but to let go. On the other hand, if she is trying to quit those acts, you would do all you can to help her so that she can be with you. And that is sort of how God operates.
God Bless
Its a Cause an effect, deny GOD means hell, you know that, you might not neccisarily see the chose in front of you, like you see hell on one hand and Heaven on the other. and you choose. but you do see a little glimpse of this when your in temptation.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
Everything that God had to say on His own thoughts about even one single human soul going to Hell , He said on the Cross.
Referring once more to Our Lady of Fatima’s words …
" Then looking very sad, Our Lady said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.”
… She is calling/inviting us to do a very Christ-like thing , to prevent souls from going to Hell through prayer and sacrifice. It’s part of the common priesthood.
So…
… maybe I could ask the same question of myself - Why am I permitting the souls to suffer through my inaction ?
Referring once more to Our Lady of Fatima’s words …
" Then looking very sad, Our Lady said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.”
… She is calling/inviting us to do a very Christ-like thing , to prevent souls from going to Hell through prayer and sacrifice. It’s part of the common priesthood.
So…
… maybe I could ask the same question of myself - Why am I permitting the souls to suffer through my inaction ?
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qOcOp
Guest
There is a difference between ignorance and willful ignorance. The smoker may not be choosing to die but he knows and is taking the risk of dying by putting carcinogens in his body. Ignoring the health risks related to smoking does not exempt the smoker from being responsible for his own death if that death is from smoking. Most people don’t intend to die of a heart attack when they eat fast food regularly but they still know that fast food leads to heart disease. Ignoring this and eating the fast food regularly regardless would be an example of willful ignorance.
You can’t claim ignorance if you know something is bad for you but you did it anyway.
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slywakka250
Guest
God is at least in part to blame for the suffering of every soul who is in hell.
God created this great test which we must take part in by being created in this earth. All men must play the game. God created all men knowing that some would reject him. That is, God stacked the deck such that some people would have to lose. There is no way around this fact.
That hell is freely chosen by those who go there, does not change the fact that God’s very being and action directly willed perhaps a very large number of precious beings right into eternal torment. God is omniscient, and from God’s perspective, outside of time, all things are already completed, and souls were in hell at the precise “moment” that God first conceived of their existence.
God didn’t create man, and then sat around to wait to see if man would return his love. He already had the results. God just IS. I am that I am God says. What we experience on earth and then in heaven or hell IS God’s perfect plan for the universe, and that plan included man souls going right to hell, at God’s command, from the moment God conceived the universe at the very beginning.
Somehow souls in hell are a necessary part of God’s plan. I understand the argument that hell is freely chosen by those who go there. But these souls in fact are “taking one for the team” as there going there from an existential perspective is necessary for God’s perfect plan, or God would not have allowed it, if he really is a good God.
Those in hell should be honored for choosing to suffer for all eternity, just so God can have some friends in heaven who “love” him. Honestly this seems kind of selfish of God to put mankind through all this testing, resulting in souls in hell, just so he can have some love returned to him.
Was God lonely before he created man? what’s the point of this whole thing??
It must be very very special in order to justify the ultimate horror of hell for many. I just don’t see it.
God created this great test which we must take part in by being created in this earth. All men must play the game. God created all men knowing that some would reject him. That is, God stacked the deck such that some people would have to lose. There is no way around this fact.
That hell is freely chosen by those who go there, does not change the fact that God’s very being and action directly willed perhaps a very large number of precious beings right into eternal torment. God is omniscient, and from God’s perspective, outside of time, all things are already completed, and souls were in hell at the precise “moment” that God first conceived of their existence.
God didn’t create man, and then sat around to wait to see if man would return his love. He already had the results. God just IS. I am that I am God says. What we experience on earth and then in heaven or hell IS God’s perfect plan for the universe, and that plan included man souls going right to hell, at God’s command, from the moment God conceived the universe at the very beginning.
Somehow souls in hell are a necessary part of God’s plan. I understand the argument that hell is freely chosen by those who go there. But these souls in fact are “taking one for the team” as there going there from an existential perspective is necessary for God’s perfect plan, or God would not have allowed it, if he really is a good God.
Those in hell should be honored for choosing to suffer for all eternity, just so God can have some friends in heaven who “love” him. Honestly this seems kind of selfish of God to put mankind through all this testing, resulting in souls in hell, just so he can have some love returned to him.
Was God lonely before he created man? what’s the point of this whole thing??
It must be very very special in order to justify the ultimate horror of hell for many. I just don’t see it.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
*slywakka250 in bold
*c1seeks in plain font
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It is because of God that we exist; so He is in the chain of events that leads to a person’s eternal destiny; but he does not make the person suffer in hell.
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The big Q, though, is in what sense do we “blame” God? Some do end up losing… but they choose to lose.
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It’s difficult to discuss God’s eternity, omniscience, etc. since we are so finite, and it is hard for us to understand, being creatures in time and space. But, though God sees everything as an “eternal now,” that does not mean souls were already in hell—if this observation counts for anything (I don’t think it makes a difference to what you’re saying.) But it is also important to note that because God is omniscient and sees everything as an “eternal Now,” he takes into account everyone’s free decisions.
But I understand that even that’s iffy—because we’re all dependent on other events, other peoples choices. It’s, as you said, as though the cards had to be stacked in a way where some would end up losing, no matter what. So I see the difficulty.
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No—it’s not part of God’s “perfect plan.” Hell isn’t necessary. It only exists because of our freedom.
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I don’t think this holds much water (you may just be talking sarcastically), since you’re dealing with God as if he is on a human level. No, God doesn’t require anyone’s love. Christian teaching is that he created out of love, not because he needed it.
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Hell is horror. That’s the point of me starting this thread…
I hope others can submit their ideas.
What I really think it comes down to, where we can get “God off the hook,” so to speak, is if those who end up in hell chose hell freely, because they wanted it, because they knew of its suffering, etc.
But that doesn’t seem to be the case. In other words, if humans end up in hell for the same reason/by the same way the angels did: they had complete understanding of the consequences, were freely able to decide, with no hindrance.
*c1seeks in plain font
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It is because of God that we exist; so He is in the chain of events that leads to a person’s eternal destiny; but he does not make the person suffer in hell.
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The big Q, though, is in what sense do we “blame” God? Some do end up losing… but they choose to lose.
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It’s difficult to discuss God’s eternity, omniscience, etc. since we are so finite, and it is hard for us to understand, being creatures in time and space. But, though God sees everything as an “eternal now,” that does not mean souls were already in hell—if this observation counts for anything (I don’t think it makes a difference to what you’re saying.) But it is also important to note that because God is omniscient and sees everything as an “eternal Now,” he takes into account everyone’s free decisions.
But I understand that even that’s iffy—because we’re all dependent on other events, other peoples choices. It’s, as you said, as though the cards had to be stacked in a way where some would end up losing, no matter what. So I see the difficulty.
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No—it’s not part of God’s “perfect plan.” Hell isn’t necessary. It only exists because of our freedom.
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I don’t think this holds much water (you may just be talking sarcastically), since you’re dealing with God as if he is on a human level. No, God doesn’t require anyone’s love. Christian teaching is that he created out of love, not because he needed it.
**
It must be very very special in order to justify the ultimate horror of hell for many. I just don’t see it.
**
Hell is horror. That’s the point of me starting this thread…
I hope others can submit their ideas.
What I really think it comes down to, where we can get “God off the hook,” so to speak, is if those who end up in hell chose hell freely, because they wanted it, because they knew of its suffering, etc.
But that doesn’t seem to be the case. In other words, if humans end up in hell for the same reason/by the same way the angels did: they had complete understanding of the consequences, were freely able to decide, with no hindrance.
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ddarko
Guest
I don’t think you are correct here.
Lets go back to the analogy I gave sometime back.
Let us say you love a woman and you want to marry her. She says she loves you too. But she keeps doing things that you don’t like. You tell her about it. But she still keeps doing them saying she enjoys it. Now all you can do at this point is to let her go because you know that she won’t like who you are.
So in the above analogy, you are God and the woman is the person who ends up in hell. Though God wants that woman to be with him, she keeps doing things he does not like and enjoys doing them and has no repentance of it. In other words, she has rejected everything about God. Thus God gives her what she wants, an eternity without his presence. Now an eternity without God is torture. God is the only person that can quench our desires completely but if we never get to see him, we will always suffer thinking of what we don’t have. Thus, the woman suffers of her own choosing.
The only objection at this point is, but what if the woman repents while she suffers in hell? Catholic doctrine tells us that no one comes out of hell but it seems that if she repents, she should be let out. So it looks like an inconsistency.
I answer that there is no contradiction. God in his providence, knows all truths about the free choices one makes. If it is true that the Woman under a finite time of suffering would repent of her ways, God in his providence would have provided that suffering here on earth. In other words, God in his providence has arranged the world before the she was even made to save her if she would have chosen him. That is how much God cares about every single one of us btw.
Thus, the possibility of someone in hell repenting after finite amount of suffering is impossible. God in his providence would not let such a person end up in hell in the first place and would have made them have that suffering during their earthly lives so that they may repent. So the only way someone ends up in hell is because they have chosen not to repent on earth i.e. if they would not freely repent under finite time of suffering.
Technically speaking, the following rough counter-factual about them is true.
a) Person X will not want to repent and amend their life under any amount of suffering.
Since the above counter-factual is true, God simply gives them what they want. To live in their disordered ways which leads to immense suffering but not change of heart.
Hence, they are given a life without God and they will stay their suffering for eternity while still rejecting God. None of it is God’s fault.
Does that solve your problem? Let me know if you have more questions.
God Bless
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Very, very nicely put. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. Did you just think of this?I don’t think you are correct here.
Lets go back to the analogy I gave sometime back.
Let us say you love a woman and you want to marry her. She says she loves you too. But she keeps doing things that you don’t like. You tell her about it. But she still keeps doing them saying she enjoys it. Now all you can do at this point is to let her go because you know that she won’t like who you are.
So in the above analogy, you are God and the woman is the person who ends up in hell. Though God wants that woman to be with him, she keeps doing things he does not like and enjoys doing them and has no repentance of it. In other words, she has rejected everything about God. Thus God gives her what she wants, an eternity without his presence. Now an eternity without God is torture. God is the only person that can quench our desires completely but if we never get to see him, we will always suffer thinking of what we don’t have. Thus, the woman suffers of her own choosing.
The only objection at this point is, but what if the woman repents while she suffers in hell? Catholic doctrine tells us that no one comes out of hell but it seems that if she repents, she should be let out. So it looks like an inconsistency.
I answer that there is no contradiction. God in his providence, knows all truths about the free choices one makes. If it is true that the Woman under a finite time of suffering would repent of her ways, God in his providence would have provided that suffering here on earth. In other words, God in his providence has arranged the world before the she was even made to save her if she would have chosen him. That is how much God cares about every single one of us btw.
Thus, the possibility of someone in hell repenting after finite amount of suffering is impossible. God in his providence would not let such a person end up in hell in the first place and would have made them have that suffering during their earthly lives so that they may repent. So the only way someone ends up in hell is because they have chosen not to repent on earth i.e. if they would not freely repent under finite time of suffering.
Technically speaking, the following rough counter-factual about them is true.
a) Person X will not want to repent and amend their life under any amount of suffering.
Since the above counter-factual is true, God simply gives them what they want. To live in their disordered ways which leads to immense suffering but not change of heart.
Hence, they are given a life without God and they will stay their suffering for eternity while still rejecting God. None of it is God’s fault.
Does that solve your problem? Let me know if you have more questions.
God Bless
I would say a couple of things though.
- To me it just seems “too good to be true.” It sounds like pure speculation (but I guess that’s all we have to work with). It is hard to comprehend such a case, whereby God considers everyone’s response to suffering and whether or not they would repent, and then fix up a world where it could work out.
- And I guess we have to say it has to do with the intensity of the suffering and not the amount of time endured—since, after all, what if someone would repent after 150 years of suffering (beyond earthly lifetime)?
If you could work in some replies based on my above comments, that would be very helpful!!
D
ddarko
Guest
Aah yes. But this is an essential teaching on Divine Providence. God orders every little event and he does so to save anyone who will freely accept his grace to be saved.
Since God is omniscient, this is very much possible.
Also remember, our motive in explaining these issues is only for us to make sense of these things. So it is indeed speculation. The explanations are probably not even close to the actual reasons why God chose to do things this way.
But for our human understanding, its always interesting and gives us peace to reconcile things that seem logically contradictory at first
Excellent point, intensity would have to be the factor. Since someone might say, what if at maximum intensity of pain, 150 years is still required?
The answer to this as you said is that any intensity of pain/suffering can be given in finite time and it is therefore independent of time. Seems reasonable.
Another possible answer would be that no such person exists. And if he does exists, God will create him at a time where the life span is that long. (So might be around the time of our first parents or might be in the future when technology is developed to sustain such a long life).
But I personally prefer the first answer you gave that intensity is what is important.
No problem, I also responded to your PM. I hope that helps.
God Bless
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bentcurve
Guest
God created for this reason,
existence is better than non-existence. Why did Dickenson write over 1000 poems that she never showed anyone? Because it was better for them to be, and she found satisfaction in creating something that made things better.
Where this gets sketchy is when you deal with how literal to take the old testament and the origin of sin. Why did God allow sin? Is free will better than not? Why?
If you take Genesis at it’s word, which I don’t but meh, Adam and Eve’s sin resulting in all pain, suffering, strife, sorrow, misery, and damnation. Had we no free will, there would be none of those things and we would still be living in physical communion with God now.
hmmmmmm
This is one of the things I struggle with. God is the source of all things. All creation finds it origins and foundation in him. Would that not also include sin?
If angels have no free will, how was Satan able to fall unless he was supposed to?
There are some very very heavy questions you get into when you start looking at the idea of hell, a just and loving God, and creation together.
BUT, I digress, he created because it was simply better to have something than nothing. It was better to have man than to not.
existence is better than non-existence. Why did Dickenson write over 1000 poems that she never showed anyone? Because it was better for them to be, and she found satisfaction in creating something that made things better.
Where this gets sketchy is when you deal with how literal to take the old testament and the origin of sin. Why did God allow sin? Is free will better than not? Why?
If you take Genesis at it’s word, which I don’t but meh, Adam and Eve’s sin resulting in all pain, suffering, strife, sorrow, misery, and damnation. Had we no free will, there would be none of those things and we would still be living in physical communion with God now.
hmmmmmm
This is one of the things I struggle with. God is the source of all things. All creation finds it origins and foundation in him. Would that not also include sin?
If angels have no free will, how was Satan able to fall unless he was supposed to?
There are some very very heavy questions you get into when you start looking at the idea of hell, a just and loving God, and creation together.
BUT, I digress, he created because it was simply better to have something than nothing. It was better to have man than to not.
V
valentino
Guest
If in fact some people do go to Hell They have to be fully aware their going there.i don’t think its fiery place where people burn constantly and are never consumed.God certainly doesn’t want any of his creatures to go to Hell and He’s done everything possible so no one goes there.I believe the most terrible pain will be extreme loneliness.After seeing Jesus at the Judgement and His magnificence aand never to be able to see him again knowing all the time it was our own fault must be awful.God asks so little of man.He wants to give us peace and joy now and forever.Anybody who doesn’t want this its his(her)own choice.God can’t make people want to be happy.
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