Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

[ivebeenshown]

Lets say that I reject God and choose to spend an eternity in hell. He knew I would make this choice, and yet he still made me.

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?

Articles on omniscience, predestination, or this exact topic would be lovely.

It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.

 

[Ahimsa]

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?

Is it truly possible to be “away” from God?

 

[Iamacatholic77]

It is a very difficult concept. Hence my question. And thank you for your answer, but I suppose my main problem is this.

In football there is a winner and a loser. No big deal for the loser - he still gets to go home to his loved ones. So lets add a twist to your scenario. The losers of the football game get executed.

God knows that 60 players will lose their lives at the end of the game. Why did he decide to have a game at all?

To many people death is a reward. If they are murdered do they not get special consideration at judgement? or would both sides go to hell for just playing the game knowing the losers would be executed in that situation the only winners would be the people who lost the game on purpose to save the winners who are really losers.

and a reply to the posters original question. Lets say you were going to hell because of your rejection and it was preknown …does your potential mother or father deserve not to have the joy of your life just because of your potential free will descision?what if they were good God fearing folks? should they be punished?

 

[benedictus2]

This is a very quick lunch time post and will address only some points.

I was almost asleep when I was doing post 196 so had to make it short.

I will try to do a much more detailed reply to your previous post so that I can address the errors in it point by point an paragraph by paragraph. But I will have to do that later this evening if I get a chance to go go home early.

Excellent, progress. I’ll reply to this post and ignore your others if you don’t mind since this seems to represent the high water mark in progress in this conversation to date (and in truth this conversation is taking much more time than I originally expected to make such a simple point).

Essentially you have said that the soul is not fixed at the point at which God creates it. Ok, that seems logical, however I do not think it makes any difference unless you are saying that the souls which come from God **are all carbon copies of each other. **

What does that have got to do with the soul changing?

Because if God has the ability to adjust to any extent the nature of an individuals soul then that is the extent to which he has direct control over the internal aspects covered in my point 3.

This is an oversimplification but I can’t think of a more accurate analogy at the moment.

Suppose the soul is made of clay. God makes 3 souls, he grabs a piece and shapes it into a particular shape (let say that one’s triangle, one square, one oblong)

Notice, these souls are not carbon copies of each other.

Suppose that one of the properties of this particular clay is the ability to move such that it changes its shape and size as it moves. Over the years of movement the souls that started off as triangle, square and oblong are now very different shapes and sizes.

So why do the souls have to be carbon copies of each other?

Furthermore, How does the fact that God has the ability to shape a particular soul impinge on the fact that He **has given each the ability **- by their free choice - to change the shape of their soul?

You are again making the error of equating potential with actual.

 

[benedictus2]

Is it truly possible to be “away” from God?

You make a very good point there.

It is not a case of staying away but turning away.

 

[Candide_West]

This is a very quick lunch time post and will address only some points.

I was almost asleep when I was doing post 196 so had to make it short.

No problem. Interesting post and clarification for me anyway.*

I will try to do a much more detailed reply to your previous post so that I can address the errors in it point by point an paragraph by paragraph. But I will have to do that later this evening if I get a chance to go go home early.

No worries, if possible I’d like to use the traditional one post one reply approach to avoid talking past each other. But if you do write back before I put this one up I’ll wait for you to reply to this one too and will reply to both together.

What does that have got to do with the soul changing?

The part you highlighted was intended to show how point 3. Could be made irrelevant by the reply you gave. Your subsequent reply has clarified that point 3. does in fact stand although is of probably lesser significance than point 4.

This is an oversimplification but I can’t think of a more accurate analogy at the moment.

Ok, so how about we use that for the moment for a simple discussion then?*

Suppose the soul is made of clay. God makes 3 souls, he grabs a piece and shapes it into a particular shape (let say that one’s triangle, one square, one oblong)

Notice, these souls are not carbon copies of each other.

Excellent, so the extent to which the different starting shape of soul makes a difference to life’s path is the extent to which God is responsible for an individuals choices through their life due to internal elements of decision making. I know your use of shapes here is a simplification but I think it’s a very good way of demonstrating how this works, so I’ll make use of it too if you don’t mind.

Suppose that one of the properties of this particular clay is the ability to move such that it changes its shape and size as it moves. Over the years of movement the souls that started off as triangle, square and oblong are now very different shapes and sizes.

Ok so let’s illustrate this with an example along with how Gods choice in the shaping affects the end shape.

Let’s say that God puts those 3 souls in 3 bodies.*

Body 1 - triangle = person A
Body 2 - square = person B
Body 3 - oblong = person C

We can see from this that God has an element of control of who a person is and through the ability to fine tune his element (the soul) he can therefore create a variety of end results in the individual at the point of birth and thus at the end of their life (through a huge chain of causality).

Nowt to demonstrate, let’s say

person A goes on to live a fairly average life, so ends up with a vaguely triangular soul still
person B is a pretty good person and ends up with a more or less circular soul
person C goes on to become a serial killer and ends up with their soul all spikey

God would, (indeed must being omniscient) know the other possibilities which would have occurred if for example he had given combined body 3 with a circular soul instead or any other shape for that matter (since any change in soul shape would presumably significantly redirect that life we can assume with any other shape of soul he would not have ended up as a serial killer).*

So let’s say for the purpose of discussion that if God had put a oblong soul into body 1 and a triangular soul into body 3 then they would both have turned out to be great people and ended up with lovely spheroid souls. God knew this but decided to put a triangle in 1 and a oblong in 3 anyway. Thus he is responsible for the consequences of that choice. Effectively he chose that person C would be a serial killer through giving him the one and only shape of soul that would lead to person C becoming a serial killer.

So why do the souls have to be carbon copies of each other?

They don’t, that is just the way in which point 3. would disappear and point 4. would become the only significant factor. As I said, the extent to which he can alter the design of a soul is the extent to which he is responsible through point 3. This has an inverse relationship to point 4. So the more Gods design affects a soul, the less it matters which situations he decides that person will experience. The less a person is shaped by Gods design of their soul the more they are shaped by the situations he makes them experience.*

Furthermore, How does the fact that God has the ability to shape a particular soul impinge on the fact that He **has given each the ability **- by their free choice - to change the shape of their soul?

It doesn’t, but neither does it alter the fact that God will know exactly what all his options are (presumably an infinite array) and exactly how each one will affect the life which results. In other words he directs the life by designing the soul and determining the situations, as per points 3 and 4 of my previous post.*

Thus the “free-will” by which a soul reshapes itself is nothing more than the combination of Gods original design and a sequence of events (yeses and no’s to use your previous post) all of which were determined in advance by God. Thus again, free will is an illusion. Both in the actions and decisions made and in the resultant reshaping of the soul.*

You are again making the error of equating potential with actual.

Once again I ask you where you think I am making this error. To date you have stated a few times that I am making errors but when challenged (repeatedly) fail to identify where I have supposedly made these errors. Please specify where you think I have made this error.*

Thanks

 

[benedictus2]

Ok so let’s illustrate this with an example along with how Gods choice in the shaping affects the end shape.

Let’s say that God puts those 3 souls in 3 bodies.*

Body 1 - triangle = person A
Body 2 - square = person B
Body 3 - oblong = person C

We can see from this that God has an element of control of who a person is and through the ability to fine tune his element (the soul) he can therefore create a variety of end results in the individual at the point of birth and thus at the end of their life (through a huge chain of causality).

Nowt to demonstrate, let’s say

person A goes on to live a fairly average life, so ends up with a vaguely triangular soul still
person B is a pretty good person and ends up with a more or less circular soul
person C goes on to become a serial killer and ends up with their soul all spikey

God would, (indeed must being omniscient) know the other possibilities which would have occurred if for example he had given combined body 3 with a circular soul instead or any other shape for that matter (since any change in soul shape would presumably significantly redirect that life we can assume with any other shape of soul he would not have ended up as a serial killer).*

So let’s say for the purpose of discussion that if God had put a oblong soul into body 1 and a triangular soul into body 3 then they would both have turned out to be great people and ended up with lovely spheroid souls. God knew this but decided to put a triangle in 1 and a oblong in 3 anyway. Thus he is responsible for the consequences of that choice. Effectively he chose that person C would be a serial killer through giving him the one and only shape of soul that would lead to person C becoming a serial killer.

Got home very late and its almost midnight so I will have to give the longer reply tomorrow.

Just want to address this part.

It doesn’t matter which body because every single being at birth is like a blank canvas. Different personalities, different souls. They will still choose according to what they freely will regardless of whatever situation they are. While environment culture and other external factors influence ones choice, the person still chooses independently.

And the choice depends on what the intellect apprehends.

It is the soul that animates the body so one can’t really say “if I have a different body I will be different”. Perhaps the only difference would be that those with beautiful bodies will be subject to the temptation to pride while those with not so beautiful bodies might be tempted to despair.

Your earlier post requires a much more thorough explanation of the Catholic teaching and I will do that tomorrow since its the end of the work week.

Once again I ask you where you think I am making this error. To date you have stated a few times that I am making errors but when challenged (repeatedly) fail to identify where I have supposedly made these errors. Please specify where you think I have made this error.*

Thanks

When you said " Because if God has the ability to adjust to any extent the nature of an individuals soul then that is the extent to which he has direct control over the internal aspects covered in my point 3. "

Just because God has the ability to shape the soul if he so wishes, it does not mean that He does so in such a way that it precludes free will. The soul of a child is different to that of the adult and how that adult soul takes shape depends on our choices. Our choices change us and those choices were not determined by God.

 

[Iamacatholic77]

I didn’t desire to be created. God created me, and he knew I would go to hell. Free will aside. I Understand free will. I get to choose, but the fact is, God knows the outcome. He knows the path that my free will takes me, so why create something if you know it will fail?

God knows everything that has happened and all the possibilities of what may happen.God does not know the outcome this you should know if you understand freewill as you say you do.God will never put you in any situation that he doesnt also give you a way out and an alternative.It is up to you and your freedom of will to be observant enough to choose the correct path.Just because up until now you may have chosen the wrong path there is a fork in the road somewhere in front of you, do you go straight left or right? The choice is yours. Anything you may have done can and will be forgiven you have but to ask. If you plan on going to hell it is your choice not his.God loves you no matter is you love him or not.

 

[Candide_West]

Got home very late and its almost midnight so I will have to give the longer reply tomorrow.

No problem, I shall look forwards to it.*

*Just want to address this part.

It doesn’t matter which body because every single being at birth is like a blank canvas. Different personalities, different souls. They will still choose according to what they freely will regardless of whatever situation they are. While environment culture and other external factors influence ones choice, the person still chooses independently.

No problem, that just removes the biology aspect of point 3. It actually makes the argument more straightforward since it removes need for the cross-reference between point 3. and 4.*

Perhaps it would help to start from the start. From the very first “decision” a child makes (at whatever point that occurs). At this point the soul is as God made it, since it has not yet made any choices which could reshape itself.

At this point the decision which is reached depends on two factors (as at every other point) the internal and external. At this point though, the internal element is exactly as God made it. So he is directly responsible for the internal element.

As per point 4. The external factors are also dependent on God (through chains of causality).

So the two factors which decide how the child will choose in this first choice (the first time they are able to re-shape their soul) are both determined by God. One directly and the other through a chain of causality. So the decision that the child reaches and how this reshapes their soul is entirely dependent on… God. This decision has also reshaped their soul slightly, but since all the factors in that reshaping were determined by God the*reshaped version of the soul is actually entirely down to what God decided as well.

Now the precise shape of the soul is still by Gods choice but there is now a layer of causality in between. God caused something which caused the current shape of the soul.

Now in the second choice we have again the internal and external. The internal is determined by the starting shape and the previous choice (both of which were determined by God). The external (as per point 4.) Is determined by God too, so the choice is determined by… God.*

Now the soul is reshaped again, God remains responsible but now has two layers of causality. Etc. And so it goes on.

Now perhaps you would argue diminished responsibility on the basis of the extended causality. As obviously for humans we don’t tend to apportion responsibility across multiple layers of causality. Because we are simply not able to work out all the permutations. God, however, can and indeed must (if he is omniscient) so he remains responsible no matter how many millions of layers of causality are applied.*

Much like my throwing a stone in the air, I cannot predict precisely where it would land and precisely what difference it would make throwing it slightly differently. God would and indeed must. He could only throw a stone intending to hit a specific point and could only be successful. Otherwise he is not omniscient.

And the choice depends on what the intellect apprehends.

Exactly, and what the intellect apprehends depends on the intellect as well as what it is presented with. Since the mind is related to (or I suppose arguably is) the soul then the choice depends on the soul and the situation (this is essentially point 2. of my argument incidentally).*

So once again since God either directly or through a chain of causality determines both the soul and the situation (point 3. and 4.), it is God who makes the choice. He may do it directly or through a chain of causality, but in either case he cannot avoid responsibility.

*It is the soul that animates the body so one can’t really say “if I have a different body I will be different”. Perhaps the only difference would be that those with beautiful bodies will be subject to the temptation to pride while those with not so beautiful bodies might be tempted to despair.

Ok, as per the start of this post that just removes a complication and the argument still holds.*

*Your earlier post requires a much more thorough explanation of the Catholic teaching and I will do that tomorrow since its the end of the work week.

Ok, I shall look forwards to that too.*

*When you said " Because if God has the ability to adjust to any extent the nature of an *individuals …"

Just because God has the ability to shape the soul if he so wishes, it does not mean that He does so in such a way that it precludes free will.*

Great, thanks. Now I can answer my apparent error, which in this case is just a misunderstanding (apologies for not being sufficiently clear).*

I was not talking about God choosing to make a soul without free will. That would be assuming the conclusion. Rather it referred to the idea that souls are made differently to each other. That is all.*

If God has the ability to shape an individuals soul differently then that is the extent to which an individuals decisions were affected by Gods designing (in other words the extent to which God affects the internal part of the internal / external combination required for decision making).
benedictus2;8113565:

The soul of a child is different to that of the adult and how that adult soul takes shape depends on our choices. *Our choices change us and those choices were not determined by God.

Agree that the soul of an adult would be different to that of a child. But as I think is clear from the above, those choices were indeed ultimately determined by God.

 

[dedo]

Lets say that I reject God and choose to spend an eternity in hell. He knew I would make this choice, and yet he still made me.

If he loved me so much, why would he make me knowing that I would spend an eternity away from him?

Articles on omniscience, predestination, or this exact topic would be loverly.

Hi Peter:

I once had a real problem with this issue: “How can God’s ability to see the future coexist with the free will of man.” On the surface, it would seem that the two concepts are mutually exclusive. How can you see a future unless the future is fixed?

When I had this problem, I was trying to grow in my relationship with Jesus. Actually, I was conducting an experiment to see if I could determine for myself if God really exists. The result of this experiment was that I became convinced of God’s existence because of a dramatic series of events including “coincidentally” finding a possible answer to this question exactly when I needed it.

I was browsing in a religious book store and I found a work of religious fiction called “Blink” by Ted Dekker. In this book, a character develops the power to “see the future”.

The character does not see one future, he sees thousands of possible futures. The power enables the character to do amazing things since he knows exactly how to walk through a room when people are looking away so he can be “invisible” if he so chooses.

Thus, the answer to the dilemma is that God can see the future, because He sees all possible futures. The future is not fixed. Man has free will. God works in our life to move us toward a good future, and salvation, to the extent that we allow Him to do so.

 

[Candide_West]

Hi Peter:

The character does not see one future, he sees thousands of possible futures. *The power enables the character to do amazing things since he knows exactly how to walk through a room when people are looking away so he can be “invisible” if he so chooses.

Thus, the answer to the dilemma is that God can see the future, because He sees all possible futures. *The future is not fixed. *Man has free will. *God works in our life to move us toward a good future, and salvation, to the extent that we allow Him to do so.

Interesting solution to the problem. Although I assume you realise that this would mean that God is not omniscient and is bound within time (both of which are as far as I know contrary to official catholic doctrine).

 

[benedictus2]

I would suggest that you read (if you haven’t already) my post 192

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8108489&postcount=192

I demonstrated there that you can keep the 4 characteristics as you call them and still retain free will.

But… to your post.

1. Whether and individual goes to heaven or hell is dependent on the things they do and decisions they make in their life.

First you need to clarify how you understand hell.

I have a feeling that you think God is like Santa Claus making notes of whether we are naughty or nice and gives us a gift of either heaven or hell based on that.

I would recommend that you watch this video before proceeding.

youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4

1. What a person does in their life and the decisions they make is dependent on two things - who that person is and the situations they experience. In other words, the internal and external.

As I mentioned earlier, who that person is, is not set in concrete at birth. We all know that for a fact, because we all know that we grow and change.

As we make decisions, those decisions change us.

The external does affect us but the external’s affects us only in as much as it gives the environment through which we exercise free will.

It does not matter whether the external is good or bad, because the choice is always there to choose either good or bad.

3A. God determines who an individual is as he creates their “soul”. He therefore defines the internal element.

3B Arguments of diminished responsibility due to an individual being a combination of a soul and biology do not work as (being omniscient) God must know how an individual will be affected by any given combination of biology and soul.*

3C Unless of course the “soul” has little or nothing to do with who a person is (in which case he could not really be said to have anything significant to do with creating an individual) or God has no choice in how he creates each soul (in which case he is not omnipotent).

I put sub-numbers on the paragraph for clarity in my reply.

I’ve already commented on 3A and explained that God does not “determine” the soul as if the soul at birth remains static and God judges the person based on the actions of this static soul.

I do not know where you are going with 3B. This has nothing to do with 3A since “responsibility” was not even in the scope of your previous post.

The soul has something to do with who a person is because God creates a unique soul each time. I can’t see how, being made unique precludes free will.

4A. God determines what situations an individual will experience during their life. This is because…

4B God is at the beginning of every line of causality. This is because he created everything that exists. As he is omnipotent he could have created any part of the universe in any way. As he is omniscient he knew how each an every variation in what he could have created would cause variation throughout all time.

You have a rather caricaturish view of the God-man relationship.

God does not ‘entirely’ determine what situations we experience. The situations we experience are also brought about by our choices.

For example, someone kills a man and as a result meets this person, which leads to this situation, and so forth.

But how does that show that be

4C As he is also interventionist he changes things in the universe periodically. Through extended chains of causality resulting from each and every available intervention God would therefore necessarily fine tune the events which unfold in each individuals life.

This is very muddled.

What do you mean by interventionist? What does He intervene in? Does He intervene in your choices by over riding your free will or does He intervene in the inanimate things in the universe.

Let’s suppose that His intervention is to cause an earthquake.

Person A (whom He created) is in this earthquake and he is witnessing the suffering of those who are affected by the earthquake. The devastation made this man so depressed he decided to kill himself. The man went to the top of an undamaged building and hurled himself.

Why do you think Person A’s free will non existent just because God created him, knew that he will be in this earthquake scene and knew that he will be so depressed he will kill himself.

Where in this scenario do you find support for your contention that because of the above, the person did not have any free will (so jumping off a building must have been pre-programmed in to his soul)?

continued on next post

 

[FightingFat]

Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

God believes in taking risks for love, and you have free will.

 

[benedictus2]

Arguments of diminished responsibility on the basis of the extended chain of causality do not apply since God is omniscient and therefore the entire chain of causality must necessarily be visible to him. Both from every available fine tuning in creation and every available fine tuning in interventions.

As with 3B this has no bearing on what we are discussing because we are not talking about responsibility.

Thus God is responsible for the situations in which and individual finds themselves. Thus God is responsible for the external factors too.

Okay, let’s grant for the sake of this discussion that He is 100% responsible for the external factors.

How exactly does that nihilate man’s free will.

Refer back to my earthquake example.

5A. Thus a God with the identified characteristics is responsible for every situation which an individual encounters during their life and how that individual will respond to that situation.

Well no. Going back to the earthquake scenario, Person A instead of killing himself could have responded to the devastation with empathy and helped those hurt by the earthquake. Both options were open to Him. God did not build the suicide gene into his make up.

5B Thus each and every event which occurs in the universe as well as each and every decision made by each and every person is the result of an action by God. Since God is aware of every consequence of his every action he must bear ultimate responsibility for every consequence of his every action, or to put it another way - everything that happens. The individual people who experience the things he caused to happen are therefore not responsible for it, God is.

Finally you make sense!

This is the only part of this post that actually makes sense. I have had a feeling that this is where you were heading and this is what you actually mean when you made those posts about free will being an illusion.

The real point you are trying to make is NOT that “free will is an illusion because of these 4 Characteristics of God” BUT that “despite the free will, God should not blame us for our choices because He would have known that we would make those choices so in creating us, He is partly responsible for allowing those bad choices to be made”.

1. Therefore free will is an illusion since all decisions of any significance are made by God in advance by determining the factors specified in 2. Thus it is in fact God who determines in advance of any “choices” made by an individual including whether that individual will become a mass murderer or a saint and accordingly whether they will go to heaven or hell.

Actually very wrong. Your conclusion is way, way off track.

Free will is not an illusion. Free will does exist: not even once – from point 1 to 6 – were you able to show otherwise.

However, one could reasonably argue that since God knew that using your own free will you will defy Him, why create you at all. If He knew the havoc you were going to make, yet still He made you then He is responsible for allowing the havoc to happen.

Actually, the OP said that simply and more to the point. Your original post added nothing new to that. If anything it just muddled the whole exercise.

Phrased this way then, your comments about “diminished responsibility” makes sense.

So… here’s a broader approach to the whole question.

There are two things that you have left out of these scenarios, without which, nothing makes sense. These are: the nature of God being Love and the question “Why does God create?”

The points you raised will not make sense without addressing this foundational question and the nature of God. All the other attributes proceed from His nature and this nature is Love.

Without knowing why we are here in the first place, where we go and how we get there and whether we are responsible for getting there will not make sense.

In Jesus of Nazareth Part 2, Pope Benedict wrote:
***“According to Rabbinic theology, the idea of the covenant – the idea of establishing a holy people to be a communicator for God in union with Him – is before the idea of the creation of the world and supplies its inner motive. The cosmos was created, not that there might be manifold things in heaven and earth, but that there might be a space for the “covenant”, for the loving “yes” between God and His human respondent. ***“ (JofN Vol 2, page 78)

It is important to remember this, because I believe, it colours and gives the shape to any discussion on creation, heaven and hell.

contined –

 

[benedictus2]

continuation of post 214

I am not sure how conversant you are with the Bible and Christian theology but God created us to be in covenant with Him. There was a purpose for our creation and that is union with Him.

The story of salvation is about the recapitulation of this covenant.

God is not Santa Claus who ticks off our bad deeds and then throws us to hell. Rather, God shows us our sins so that we may repent because, even though we are not completely aware of it, sin is bad news for us.

I said in my earlier reply to point 3 that our choices make us. The first yes to God is difficult in our fallen state. But this first yes has a strengthening effect on the soul so that the next yes is easier. And so it goes during our earthly life. Such that in the end, because our soul has been shaped into a “yes” soul, at the end of our life, the only answer we can give is yes.

The opposite is also true. It is said that the first murder is hard but the next one is easier and the one after that even easier.

Virtue and Vice are like muscles in our soul. Whichever one you exercise that is the muscle that grows.

God does not throw us into hell fire for choosing wrong but rather we choose hell fire. But at each turn, grace is given to help you say yes, instead of no.

Francis Beckwith puts salvation this way: heaven is not so much about getting into heaven but rather getting heaven into you. What this means is that to get into heaven, it is necessary to be transformed into an image of Christ – theosis.

Now to Omniscience.

If God already knew before He created you that you will disobey Him why create you at all.

As I have said before, while we may be in time, God is outside of time. So there is no past or future with Him, only the present – the Eternal now.

Being in the Eternal Now, the statement God knows the future makes sense only to those of us who are still in time. This is hard to imagine, but If what you did, what you are doing and what you will do is all happening at the same present time, the question of knowing the future suddenly makes no sense.

I hope that clarifies the Christian position.

 

[benedictus2]

Exactly, and what the intellect apprehends depends on the intellect as well as what it is presented with. Since the mind is related to (or I suppose arguably is) the soul then the choice depends on the soul and the situation (this is essentially point 2. of my argument incidentally).*

How exactly does that preclude free will.

I think, only in the case of total mental retardation is free will non existent. Although I think there is still something in the soul that does not reach the surface of the mind, that converses with God and gives a no or yes.

Here’s another point, it is the Nos to God that diminish our free will. Much like an addict. An addict essentially makes a god out of the thing that he is addicted to. The more he gives in to this thing or habit, the more it enslaves him and the less free he becomes. But the initial choice was his.

Having sad that however, at junction where a choice is asked of us, God gives sufficent grace so that we can answer with a yes instead of a no. Where there is sin, God also gives enough grace for us to say no to sin.

Anyway, its past midnight so goodnight.

 

[Equites_Christi]

Why would God allow you to go to hell if He loves you?

The implication seems to be that if He truly loves you, he would not create you and risk your choosing hell.

But, correct me if I’m wrong, you have to exist for God to love you. Certainly, He loved you even before you existed, but if you were never going to exist at all, what would He be loving?

Therefore because you exist He loves you, and because He loves you you exist.

Part of this love is the gift of free will. I don’t believe it is ever His plan for us to end up in Hell. But if we make that part of His plan, he allows it out of respect for our free will.

So yes, He knows what you will choose, but because it is your choice he does not change it.

 

[benedictus2]

Why would God allow you to go to hell if He loves you?

The implication seems to be that if He truly loves you, he would not create you and risk your choosing hell.

But, correct me if I’m wrong, you have to exist for God to love you. Certainly, He loved you even before you existed, but if you were never going to exist at all, what would He be loving?

**Therefore because you exist He loves you, and because He loves you you exist. **

Part of this love is the gift of free will. I don’t believe it is ever His plan for us to end up in Hell. But if we make that part of His plan, he allows it out of respect for our free will.

So yes, He knows what you will choose, but because it is your choice he does not change it.

That… is very, very well put. Excellent!

Yes, in any discussion about the attributes of God, His nature (Love) must be the first premise.

 

[dedo]

Interesting solution to the problem. Although I assume you realise that this would mean that God is not omniscient and is bound within time (both of which are as far as I know contrary to official catholic doctrine).

I am not sure if this means that God is not omniscient. It seems that if God is omniscient, he can create beings that can have free will to choose different futures. Thus, different futures are possible. It seems like the whole point of having a conscience is to direct us away from “bad futures”.

Maybe I am missing something. We can really only speculate, since we don’t really understand what time is anyway.

 

[boncrayon]

God does not predetermine to where a soul will end up. He has given his commandments and the Law of Love. We have a Free Will given by God witch which Adam and Eve fell from grace. But the Bible says the "You can live in the Spirit, or you can live in the flesh.” The flesh fights the Spirit, and the Spirit fights the flesh.

Society, secularism, humanism and commercialization embellish the flesh. The Body & Blood of Jesus Christ, His Law of Love, Sacraments and Gospel teachings embellish the Spirit. We are free to follow His spiritual gifts in our life, or to rely on the world’s secularism and humanism to draw our attention away from these precious gifts of our Faith.

God wants us to be in our “prepared place” in His Kingdom. We prepare our “place” in our actions and love and support of those around us by actively attending to their needs and keeping our focus on God’s love and His plan for us.