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Nimeniton
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Modern godmen in India: a sociological appraisal by Uday Mehta
books.google.com/books/about/Modern_godmen_in_India.html?id=VExUWPcO3v8C
Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?
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books.google.com/books/about/Modern_godmen_in_India.html?id=VExUWPcO3v8C
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benedictus2
Guest
With everything we know about aids, cancer, addiction etc, etc, so many “rational” people take up smoking for the first time, get involved with drugs, and live promiscous lives.
I told my nephew (who happens to be quite intelligent) that for all his seeming intelligence is totally stupid for having started smoking 2 years ago and now smokes regularly.
Intelligence and rationality has nothing to do with our choice to sin. As a matterr of fact, the promise of sin is quite rational because it promises immediate gratification. Serial killers and psychopaths have very high IQs.
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Nimeniton
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Their followers would probably not agree with you. It is also necessary not to blur the distinctions between various mental health categories. We were originally talking about insanity in this context.
Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior. psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is
- Yet, all narcissists should be held accountable to the vast and overwhelming majority of their actions.* voicesofunreason.com/essays/isthenarcissistlegallyinsane
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benedictus2
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I think you seem to have the idea that one sin and then wham you’re in hell.
Every time we sin, we chose to do it. At the point of that act, we know that it is wrong because that knowledge is built into us. But we still do it. Then we rationalize. After that, the succeeding evils become easy. It is said that the first murder is hard and the succeeding ones get easier and esier
No one starts with a grave sin. Every one starts with a little one, chip chipping away at the soul. If you look at the rap sheet of criminals they always start with petty crimes.
Sin has an enslaving quality about it that is why salvation is seen as a “liberation” from sin. But at each point of choice, we are given the grace to choose correctly. It is our wilfull choice that causes us to sin for one reason or another.
Our choices make us. If we end up in hell, it will be nothing more than the natural projection of all our choices. Hell will not be a surprise.
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Nimeniton
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Originally Posted by DazedConfused
Anyone in hell did not have sufficient evidence or they wouldn’t be there.
It really is a question of what one thinks is possible. I personally find it hard to believe that someone would put themselves in a position of suffering eternally when they had evidence that there was a way out of preventing it. I find it even harder to believe that anyone would choose to remain there. The Catholic position according to one forum member I spoke to is that there may well be people that perverse.
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PRmerger
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Heh. And as Lewis is arguing for the divinity of Christ, by the transitive property you are questioning Christ’s divinity when you question Lewis’ logic (which, again, is not really Lewis’ but the ECFs).
Of course the question of Jesus’ divinity is of interest to atheists. If you have not examined the possibility that there is a man in history who claimed to be God and that started a Church of now up to over 1 billion people, then you are no thinking man’s atheist.
I have no problems with your questioning Christ’s divinity. Only with your hit and run approach:
Nimen: “Hey! Maybe there’s another possibility and Christ really isn’t divine!”
PR: “Please provide arguments as to why Jesus would say he’s God but really not be.”
Nimen: “Stop pestering me! I never said that Jesus isn’t divine. I’m just saying that there may be other options.”
PR: “What are these other options and why do you consider them valid?”
Nimen: “I refuse to discuss this.”
Ok. Then don’t bring it up on a Catholic forum because, of course, you will be called to task for making such a comment and then offering no apologia for your proposal.
Then provide arguments as to how he is wrong. And why you consider them valid.
Nothing more is being asked of you. And nothing less.
Don’t come and offer provocative claims and then run away.
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Nimeniton
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This is the best ever answer I have ever seen given to this question. “The path to hell is taken with many little steps” It is certainly how bad habits are formed. As the Catholic church says “Avoid the occasions of sin”.
With the answer as a description of man and how bad habits are formed and developed, it is faultless in my opinion.
My only issue with connecting this to an eternal hell is that I do not believe this would be the case if we really had free will. Temptation comes not from within for humans but from Satan. In other words people are deluded into committing sin. Further the church argues that man needs saving. He cannot overcome sin by himself. Both these points show that there is not a pure free will if any.
I know you believe from your discussions with TonyRey that sin does not continue in hell and presumably neither does temptation. If that is so the causes of ignorance (even so called culpable ignorance) are removed. If hell is our own choice what keeps people there once the temptation and delusions are removed?
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Nimeniton
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In this context, demonstrating that CS Lewis has made a logical fallacy, it does not matter whether on examination other options are tenable or not. Lewis himself puts forward two “untenable” options, Jesus is a fraud or deluded which no doubt could also be argued are untenable. The fact are that there are other options. Anyway, back to the topic at hand
Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?
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benedictus2
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Sin and Hell
Temptation is only one side of the equation. There certainly is the lie. But at each decision point, we are also given the grace to choose rightly. We know when we choose which way is God’s way.
God gives everyone the grace to give a “Yes” to Him. St Paul says that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. By ourselves we cannot pull ourselves out of the pit we are in. To save us God extends His hand (grace) and we need to grab it.
I think everyone, if they are honest with themselves, will admit that all the bad things they have done, they have chosen to do - knowingly. We rationalize away our culpability to avoid having to confront our abjectness. We cannot accept that we really are such miserable sinners.
We are in this quagmire because of Adam and Even’s grasping for deity –this pride, this refusal to acknowledge that we are “humus , mere creatures.
Salvation must therefore consist in turning this around – we need to acknowledge our miserableness and admit that without God we are nothing. But in this acknowledgement lie our salvation. The acceptance of our sinful state is the beginning of liberation.
Even in secular society, this is in evidence. At every AA meeting the path to liberation starts with this: “I am an alcoholic”.
If we continually reject this grace then the soul becomes set into a “No” soul (warped and corrupted) rather than a “Yes” soul, because our choices transform us. Every time we sin or do good, this act shapes our soul. If our denial of God’s grace is consistent, a hardening of heart sets in such that in the end, no other answer could come from us but “No”.
I usually give this analogy. When we exercise, the muscle that we exercise is what grows, the muscles we neglect atrophies. I think it is the same with our vice and virtue “muscles”.
**Heaven **
Another matter to address is not just the nature of hell but the nature of salvation. Heaven is not the reward for being good, heaven IS being good. Salvation consists in our transformation into the image of Christ: theosis - or as the Western Church calls it deification.
Every time we cooperate with God’s grace, every time we make a choice for truth, beauty and goodness, our soul is transformed. She becomes a “Yes” soul such that in the final decision, the only answer she can give is a “yes”. When this transformation is completed, then we are able to truly see God - Beatific Vision.
Francis Beckwith puts it this way: Salvation is not so much getting into heaven but getting heaven into you. The grace that God gives is the “heaven” that is being gotten into you. Sin and hell is therefore a rejection of this heaven.
St Catherine of Sienna said “ All the way to heaven is heaven, because Jesus said “I am the way”. Heaven (as in the afterlife) is nothing more than a realization or completion of the Way, that we have been living our life.
Here is the lyrics to a Gospel song which was taken from St Richard of Chichester’s prayer.
Day by Day,
Day by Day,
O Dear Lord three things I pray
To see Thee more clearly,
To love The more dearly,
Follow Thee more nearly,
Day by day.
That is the process of theosis. The Way.
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benedictus2
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If we end up in hell it will be because we knowingly did the evil. That means when we did it there were no delusions. By the time the soul gets there, she would have already been completely turned over to sin, to a rejection of God. Dante depicts Satan as stuck in ice, unable to move.
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benedictus2
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The third option was not an option at all.
Why?
Christ claimed to be God.
There are only two options. Either He is or He is not.
If He is not, then there are really only two options as well.
Either He is a lunatic or a liar.
Bearing in mind that He is a Jew, the third option (composite) falls into either the lunatic or the liar camp. If he is a composite, then he is a liar for having claimed to be God.
The only thing I can think of is perhps because there will be a lot of good that will spring from your having lived.Anyway, back to the topic at hand
God creates out of love, even in hell, the person is loved but is unable to perceive this love and unable to respond to this love because hate and evil has been deeply etched into its soul.
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Nimeniton
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I find that hard to imagine, though granted the only way for you and I to know from personal experience is to be able to read everybody’s mind at the moment of sin.
I doubt anybody would do evil if the full knowledge of hell (both intellectually and emotionally understood) presented itself each time at the moment of evil opportunity. I tend to see three scenarios. 1 People know they are doing evil but feel compelled so do not have free will. 2 They delude themselves that they are not doing evil, the victim “deserved it and needed to be taught a lesson” etc or 3. They know they are doing evil but delude themselves that there will be no consequences.
Of course, I cannot prove beyond all doubt that there can be no other scenarios. But even if there were such, with regard to the sinner entering hell completely turned over to sin I fail to see how an omnipotent God cannot reverse this as if there is some law beyond himself with which he cannot interfere. Especially considering the nature of God presented in these verses
For This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth 1 Timothy 2:3-6 and 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times Matthew 18:21-22.
It seems to me that the doctrine of eternal hell questions either God’s omnipotence or puts limits on his ability to forgive.
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benedictus2
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Well, if we posit a God who is Omniscient then He can. For myself, I know that whatever evil I have done I have done knowingly. If one is introspective enough and examines one’s self enough to analyse one’s motives, one will be aware of choosing the wrong willingly.
That would only be true if you view hell as punishment. If you see hell as a punishment for doing evil then the scenario would be something like: if I know that I will beaten, sodomized, electrocuted in jail then I would not have done it.
But as the Act of Contrition says: I detest my sins not because I am afraid of hell but because I have offended God who loves me unconditionally. Otherwise it would be like a man who stays faithful to his wife only because he is afraid of catching STD.
But I don’t think it is like that at all. We know when we do something bad - say cheat or vilify someone - we know deep inside that a change occurs in us. We become curved in on ourselves. St Augustine says man is Curvatus In Se (curved in on one’s self) and this is essentially what someone who is in hell is. A man turned in on himself cannot love. It is always about me.
So long as we think hell is a punishment for behaving badly then I think we fail to get what hell is. Hell IS behaving badly. The only thing is we do not see this as glaringly as we should with what we call “small sins”. But “small” sins are the spring board for bigger sins. So we progress deeper and deeper into being turned in on ourselves.
If you can imagine a light streaming from a light source. The further from the light source the darker it gets until there is no more light. The closer to the light source the brighter. We stand at say about mid-way.
We make a decision either going towards the light source or away from it. Every choice made away from the light is towards darkness. We know that if we turn one way the destination is the light source and the other is towards darkness. If we continuously walk away from the light, we find our selves first walking in fading light, then semi darkness till we reach pitch black where the only person we see is ourselves.
At each stage in the journey towards darkness, we get acclimatized. At first we find the fading light difficult, but once we get used to it we think it is quite normal and everything is still okay. So we progress deeper into the dark with a similar thing happening at each stage.
Habituation sets in.
God is omnipotent but He also gave us free will. I suppose we can say that He chose to limit His omnipotence by our free will. If this were not so then God would be the source of evil and the active cause of evil.
And it is not also a case of limiting His ability to forgive. Forgiveness is there but those in hell do not desire it. They become like anorexics and bullimics in the face of a banquet.They have reached a point when they have been so turned in on themselves they do not desire forgiveness.
Forgiveness is like rain that pours on everyone, without preference. But we won’t get wet if we insist on remaining under cover. God offers His hand always, waiting for us to grab it.
If sin is a turning away from God, then salvation is really quite simple. Turn the other way. We don’t even need to move. Just turn and God’s mercy is ready and waiting for us.
Salvation is a response of love to Love.
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Abba
Guest
That’s a great question. I think Saint Paul the Apostle would answer it thus:
Romans:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
This also reminds me of the blind man:
John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
I think that we just need to Trust in Jesus and do the best we can.
It’s like what we are taught in the parable of the rich man who paid the workers a days wage even though some did not work the whole day. We need to trust that God is just, good, love and mercy itself.Peace,
Abba
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Nimeniton
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I am not sure what you mean when you say “hell is behaving badly”. Whether one considers it as a punishment coming from God or the natural consequences of one’s behaviour is neither here nor there. True one creates a hell for oneself when one is indifferent to the suffering of others. However, it does not answer the question why a loving God creates us knowing we will go to hell. If he had not created us this would not have happened. The standard answer is that God values free will but that answer is inherent with difficulties too.
I usually give the example of a ten year old boy threatening to punch a five year old boy. It is within one’s power to stop the ten year old boy. So you say, “Please do not do that you will hurt him, it is wrong. Just imagine if that happened to you. You will have to live with what you did for the rest of your life”. (Note there is no threat of punishment coming from without. It is clear that the boy is the author of his own future suffering). He replies, “I want to hurt him”. He then picks up a rock and valuing his free will more than the suffering that will result for the five year old boy, one does not intervene. The little boy dies from head injuries and the big boy feels bad about it for the rest of his life. So would you let the 10 year old hit the five year old? Which is more important. The free will of the ten year old or avoiding the inevitable suffering for both?
Even if hell is not a punishment from God it is still suffering. *“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth” * Luke 13:28, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 24:51, and Matthew 25:30. Ignoring the fact that these verses indicate that God throws the people into hell and assuming that we take this poetically to mean we throw ourselves into hell, it leaves us with the problem of how an omniscient God can find no way to help them extricate themselves from the suffering of hell. We are not talking 100 years or a thousand years, not even a million years but an eternity. But this appears to be the Bible’s attitude that some will never be convinced of the Truth implying (though it is never admitted) that God lacks the creativity to help these creatures in hell.
Take for example the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man is portrayed as being in torment and even asks Abraham for some relief. The request cannot be granted. So the rich man ask that his 5 brothers be warned. The answer is intriguing,
- 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
It seems a logical conclusion from this that God lacks the ability to get through to some people and gives up on them. This questions both his omnipotence and omniscience.
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Nimeniton
Guest
I think Paul gives a very poor answer here. Basically he is saying God does because He can. Power is might and you have no power. So be sensible and accept the situation. One can then ask but what has this to do with a loving God? Paul’s answer does not answer that question. He presents a God interested in displaying his power not in showing love.
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden
In short God hardens Pharaoh’s heart so that he has an opportunity to display His power. This seems to be how God is portrayed in Exodus, as a God of power. There is the story where Moses and Aaron have a magic competition with Pharaoh’s court magician’s to see who has the greatest God. Once you convince people of your superior power then obedience follows. This proves power. It does not prove love.
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SpeakInSilence
Guest
The problem I think we are having here is our concept of how time and our lives happen. I believe time works like branches on a tree. Each branch slowly winds into another one, and another one. We are a squirrel scurrying up the branches, as we go up we can only pick one set of branches to go on. I believe God knows EVERY single path we could possibly take, he probably sees an existence where we all go to heaven and we all go to hell, but I think in the end we are the one that choices to pick the path whether to reject what God wants, or what he doesn’t.
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SpeakInSilence
Guest
You quote the story of Pharaoh and have actual very little knowledge of what it’s trying to convey. Pharaoh rejected God’s plans and grace several times, so God gave him exactly what he wanted. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God had any say.
Also your interpretation of what St. Paul said is lacking any kind of theological thought. God can do whatever he wants, because he is God. He is infinite, and your God is too small. Furthermore how can you project your own imagine of what a loving God should be like? Do you completely understand love? Is your idea of love a parent who lets their children do whatever you want? If it is, please don’t have children.
Let me add at the end, God does not force people to believe him, he doesn’t GIVE up on people. People reject his goodness and light. You want to blame God for all the ill of mankind, and make him out to be some sort of bully, but what you are missing is that mankind causes all their own problem; however it is God in the scriptures that forgives us of our trespasses.
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benedictus2
Guest
I think we need to move away from the notion that hell is a place we go to if we behave badly.
The way I would put it is hell is being in sin and we get deeper and deeper int this hell the more we continue to sin.
In my previous reply I mentioned St Augustine’s comment about man being curved in on himself. That IS hell. The more curved in on ourselves we become, the deeper in hell we end up. And it is not just the indifference to the suffering of others, we become curved in ourselves when we become pre-occupied with self. One can be seemingly concerned with the suffering of others and yet it can all be for show.
The 10 year old would have been given enough grace not to hit the 5 year old.
If you refer to us as the children, then the grace would have been given to not sin. Grace is abundant. As Paul said, grace abounds where sin abounds.
So the answer to your question is yes, short of over powering us, God gives us enough grace to not sin but he cannot overpower our will. Otherwise the action is no longer free.
If we confine it to this scenario, then the answer is that even here God can bring something good. It may not be something that they will understand immediately but certainly something that they will comprehend when they come face to face with God.
Yes, and it will be one of our choosing.
If a person ends up in hell, then that means every means, every grace would have already been given. No grace spared. It means that at every decision point, the grace is continously rejected. This is why we need to remember that our choices changes us. We don’t start being deep in sin, we make the wrong turn and then two and so fort and it warps our soul. The sadists and psychopaths started off with probably something innocous, then their perversion increases.
There is a book out called the Brain that Changes itself. I think the conclusions that it arrived at can be applied to the soul.
I will find the link regarding pornography and maybe that will make my point clearer.
Not quite. What this does illustrate is that one can get set in one’s rejection of God.
Jesus said that the only sin that will not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. I think what this means is that after we have been given the Spirit, then we already know what is true, so no delusions operating there anymore. In which case, the sin would be like those of Lucifer, who was in the presence of God, was in full knowledge of the goodness, truth and beauty but rejected it still because he was curved in on himself.
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benedictus2
Guest
I think I have addressed this point in a previous reply.
I don’t think it is a good thing to just quote this verse and leave it at that because you are right, it is an answer that is a no answer and basically say because God can and so shut up.
The quotes from Paul does not support damnation.
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