Why did God create me if he knew I would spend an eternity in hell?

[Abba]

I think Paul gives a very poor answer here. Basically he is saying God does because He can. Power is might and you have no power. So be sensible and accept the situation. One can then ask but what has this to do with a loving God? Paul’s answer does not answer that question. He presents a God interested in displaying his power not in showing love.

Hello Nimeniton,

You seem to be concerned with knowing if God is a ‘loving God’ or a power hungry God and a God that just wants to demonstrate his powers. Does this mean that you think you my believe in the existence of God if he was demonstrated to you to be a ‘loving God’? How about if it was demonstrated to you that God, not a figment of my imagination nor of yours and who IS independent of you and me, is Love itself?

God wants all human beings to come to him. He loves each and every human being. He loves you Nimeniton more than you know and are capable of imagining in your state and your human limitations. He is not playing a form of Russian Roulette with us. He respects human dignity more than unfortunately we do ourselves.

God just let Pharaoh and the Israelite do what they were already doing. God does not harden the hearts of those that seek him. He hardened the heart of Pharaoh and the Israelite whose heart was already hardened and were going away from Him. He let them go, if you will. Now, in Catholic spirituality we understand that God allows us to go through a time of, well, it’s almost an isolation from his presence but, it is known as the dark night of the soul and is like a stage of spiritual development. This is for our own good and God in his wisdom has designed it so. The effects are different from when God withdraws from evildoers. Now, with Pharaoh and the Israelite their heart was already hardened and they were acting contrary to the will of God. The hardening was not imposed on them unwillingly.

John3:16:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This can be translated literally as:

For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_3:16

If I recall correctly from my scripture reading of the New Testament, I don’t know where this would be, God has hardened the hearts of the Jews and so, they are still waiting for the Messiah. What I understand is that the heart of the Jewish people, generally speaking because there have been many converts in recent history to the Catholic faith, has been hardened but, this has been of great benefit for the gentiles and we are not to judge the Jewish people and are warned not to by Paul. But, God did not impose this hardening to an unwilling people, it was their position already.

I understand the hardening to be a withdrawal of God’s presence to willing people and groups.

This reminds me of Plato, when he wrote that Socrates said: The justice we get from evildoers is exactly the knowledge that with every evil act they commit they become more and more evil.

Better stop here.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

Abba

 

[benedictus2]

Hello Nimeniton,

You seem to be concerned with knowing if God is a ‘loving God’ or a power hungry God and a God that just wants to demonstrate his powers. Does this mean that you think you my believe in the existence of God if he was demonstrated to you to be a ‘loving God’?
Abba

I think what he means (but he can correct me on that one) is that using the text from Paul is no support at all because all it basically says is God can do whatever He pleases and that’s that.

And I would agree with him on that. It is a poor response. To understand God’s justice in relation to hell, it require the whole Catholic theology on the economy of salvation rather than just a few verses from Scripture.

However, the rest of your post did go into greater detail so I think that gave a more thorough treatment than just leaving it at Paul’s quote.

 

[Abba]

I think what he means (but he can correct me on that one) is that using the text from Paul is no support at all because all it basically says is God can do whatever He pleases and that’s that.

I see.

Well, that is what God said Himself. I think that’s where humility comes in. Who are we to question God, to judge God, to evaluate his wisdom etc…? (see the Book of Job). We cannot pretend to know the ‘mind’ of God. This is why we should not judge one another, we do not know everything and we do not know the hearts of men. I cannot judge another human being’s soul because he/she is doing this or that or believes this or that. God knows that person more than that person knows him or her self - God will be the judge. God created that person with all his/hers limitations and allowed that person to live in a certain period of time, with particular short comings, etc… It’s like that wisdom of the parable of the vineyard, we do not know the difficulties an atheist, for example, is enduring in his/her search for God. I cannot say that because I am a practicing Catholic I will be saved and an atheist on this forum will not be. Jesus will judge us according to the measure we have been given. Remember, to he that much has been given much will be expected? The servant that was given 4 dinaris or whatever was expected to have four or more… The point I am trying to make here is that we cannot not only judge people but we cannot judge God.

Matthew 20

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

(1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. "
benedictus2;8344386:

And I would agree with him on that. It is a poor response. To understand God’s justice in relation to hell, it require the whole Catholic theology on the economy of salvation rather than just a few verses from Scripture.

It does appear limited at prima facie but that was Paul’s response and God’s response.We need to be humble and understand that we are not creating a God as we go along, but, God created us and he really does exist. We need to try to find him not create him.

Peace,

Abba

 

[Nimeniton]

The problem I think we are having here is our concept of how time and our lives happen. I believe time works like branches on a tree. Each branch slowly winds into another one, and another one. We are a squirrel scurrying up the branches, as we go up we can only pick one set of branches to go on. I believe God knows EVERY single path we could possibly take, he probably sees an existence where we all go to heaven and we all go to hell, but I think in the end we are the one that choices to pick the path whether to reject what God wants, or what he doesn’t.

Your answer implies uncertainty in God’s omniscience. The ability to imagine a variety of paths that a person can take is hardly divine. I can imagine all sorts of paths that a new born infant can take. he could become a miner, a doctor or a milkman. He could be married or stay single; he may have robust good health or have a lingering disease etc etc. Omniscience is knowing which one it will definitely take. Your speculative response does not answer the question. Sorry.

 

[vanlab2005]

Are we blaming god for the choices that we made now ? What if god made us into a bunch of androids with no free will ? Will we be complaining that god is a jerk because he would not give us free will ?

 

[Nimeniton]

You quote the story of Pharaoh and have actual very little knowledge of what it’s trying to convey. Pharaoh rejected God’s plans and grace several times, so God gave him exactly what he wanted. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God had any say.

.

I would not dispute the above but once God hardens Pharaoh’s heart, free will goes out of the window and repentance is not possible. I do not see, however, how this changes in anyway that one of the reasons Gof hardened Pharaoh’s heart was to display his power.

“* 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.”*” Exodus 10:1-2

Exodus is not the only Old testament book to view God as someone who hardens peoples hearts so He may display his power. In Joshua 11:20 God hardens the hearts of Israel’s neighbours * “For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses”.* Joshua 11:20

The reasons for God hardening their hearts is quite clear. No one is claiming that Pharaoh was a nice guy!

 

[Nimeniton]

Also your interpretation of what St. Paul said is lacking any kind of theological thought. God can do whatever he wants, because he is God. He is infinite, and your God is too small. Furthermore how can you project your own imagine of what a loving God should be like? Do you completely understand love?

One has to have an understanding of the difference between love and hate to know what comes from good and what comes from evil. If you did not you would not be able to distinguish what comes from God or Satan. You would not know if you were committing evil or doing good.

After all would you agree with the Moslems that the Koran is the word of God? How can you know? You must have some way of discerning.

So I do not buy these charges that one’s understanding of love is limited. I am sure it is but then it is probably adequate enough to decide between what is moral and what is immoral.

 

[Nimeniton]

Hello Nimeniton,

You seem to be concerned with knowing if God is a ‘loving God’ or a power hungry God and a God that just wants to demonstrate his powers.

Well, not really.I was just saying that Paul’s answer does not really answer the question originally posed.

 

[Nimeniton]

The 10 year old would have been given enough grace not to hit the 5 year old.

If you refer to us as the children, then the grace would have been given to not sin. Grace is abundant. As Paul said, grace abounds where sin abounds.

So the answer to your question is yes, short of over powering us, God gives us enough grace to not sin but he cannot overpower our will. Otherwise the action is no longer free.

Even if this is so, God still allows into existence someone who refuses his grace to suffer in hell eternally when this may be avoided. The problem still remains.

 

[Nimeniton]

]If a person ends up in hell, then that means every means, every grace would have already been given. No grace spared. It means that at every decision point, the grace is continously rejected. This is why we need to remember that our choices changes us. We don’t start being deep in sin, we make the wrong turn and then two and so fort and it warps our soul. The sadists and psychopaths started off with probably something innocous, then their perversion increases.

There is a book out called the Brain that Changes itself. I think the conclusions that it arrived at can be applied to the soul.

I would agree that our choices change us though they are not the only things that do. Situations change us too. As to “No Grace is spared” that becomes a logical contradiction if the grace does not continue to be given in hell.If Grace stops being given at death then that grace is limited to this life. So there is a limit to the grace given.

Often in this sort of discussion Christians often point out that the people deserve what they get. Well a temporal suffering such as purgatory, I can understand but eternity?

 

[Nimeniton]

I I think that’s where humility comes in. Who are we to question God, to judge God, to evaluate his wisdom etc…? (see the Book of Job).

Abba

I would like to address this often made charge that to judge is to show a lack of humility. Although we cannot know everything about another person we can usually know enough to make judgments about them. If little Johnny keeps stealing money from mommy’s purse then mommy is not lacking humility if she judges that Johnny is not to be trusted. She hides the purse away. Now I am not putting Johnny in the same category as God but just pointing out it is possible to judge without having one’s humility questioned.

Now Christian belief is that God is invisible or formless if you like. He is not directly accessible to the senses. It appears that the devil is also invisible. So really the question is not questioning God but questioning what comes from God and what comes from Satan. How do you tell the difference? You have to make a judgment and you need some criteria to make that judgment. Presumably one expects a good God to do good and Satan to do evil. One has to have some understanding of the difference between good and evil to discriminate. One has to make a judgment.

For example in the early church the councils judged which books came from God and which did not. The Gospel of Thomas purports to come from God. Did they lack humility in rejecting the Gospel of Thomas?

Even if one believes that such judgment (guided by God) is permitted only to the Popes and Councils one still has to make a judgment that they have that power. We have to make judgments all the time. Every Muslim makes a judgment that Mohammed was right to say the Koran came from God and is infallible. Do those who question the Koran question God? Moslems would say that they do.

St Paul even gives us criteria for judging which gospels are true and which are not. Basically if he taught it then it is the true one. If someone teaches a different one, even an angel from heaven, it is false. Galatians 6:9.

Obviously if God is good by definition then obviously his goodness is not up for question but we can question the claims of people who claim to know God’s will whether it be Mohammed or Paul. I think it is perfectly reasonable to make such judgments.

Every convert to Catholicism makes a judgment about the Catholic church. Does their judgment that the Catholic church is the one true church come from a lack of humility?

I therefore reject the notion that making judgments necessarily demonstrates a lack of humility.

 

[Nimeniton]

benedictus2;8344234:

If we confine it to this scenario, then the answer is that even here God can bring something good. It may not be something that they will understand immediately but certainly something that they will comprehend when they come face to face with God.

Re the ten year old boy and the five year old boy.

Of course if we agree an All Loving God, we can safely assume that God has some mysterious future noble purpose. But as I have pointed out elsewhere we are not questioning God but what certain people claim come from God. So in the Bible, the human authors claim God sends people to hell not just for a long time but for eternity.

Now if one defines a God as All Good who wants everyone to be saved, one may reasonably question those who claim that this is the same God who is refuses or is unable to save them from an eternal hell.

 

[PRmerger]

Now if one defines a God as All Good who wants everyone to be saved, one may reasonably question those who claim that this is the same God who is refuses or is unable to save them from an eternal hell.

When you speak of God being “unable” to save them, you are using human language that is
incapable of expressing adequately the concept of God and our choice to be in hell. He is, by his very nature, not “unable” to do anything that is logical**.

Anyway, I was listening to NPR today and they had a story about an avian researcher at the University of Ontario who studied birds who flew 200 miles a day without stopping for water. He determined that these birds, thrushes, metabolized muscle in order to obtain the water they needed for enduring such an arduous and long flight. He said, “This technique makes the thrush not have to worry about making a pit stop for water.”

Now, clearly, thrush do not “worry”. It’s just a way of speaking that attempts to apprehend the concept the researcher is limning.

Just like God is not “unable”. To use those words, while it may be a barely adequate way to describe what we’re talking about regarding hell, does not really mean that God is truly “unable.”

**(IOW: God cannot make a married bachelor. That is illogical. But that is fodder for a different thread.)

 

[benedictus2]

Re the ten year old boy and the five year old boy.

Of course if we agree an All Loving God, we can safely assume that God has some mysterious future noble purpose. But as I have pointed out elsewhere we are not questioning God but what certain people claim come from God. So in the Bible, the human authors claim God sends people to hell not just for a long time but for eternity.

Now if one defines a God as All Good who wants everyone to be saved, one may reasonably question those who claim that this is the same God who is refuses or is unable to save them from an eternal hell.

Not refuses because He gives the grace to everyone. As I have stated a few times before, grace is always given to do the right thing, to say yes to God.

As to the “unable to save” bit, well I view it this way: God has willingly curtailed His omnipotence by giving man free will. In trying to safeguard the omnipotence of God, theologians have instead came up with a God who damns man. So in this regard, it is not a case of inability to save man. But because He has created man with free will, He cannot over ride that free will. Salvation has to respect that free will.

Speaking from personal experience, I know that God gives the grace always to say yes, so when I say No, I willfully say No to this grace to follow Him.

 

[benedictus2]

I see.

Well, that is what God said Himself. I think that’s where humility comes in. Who are we to question God, to judge God, to evaluate his wisdom etc…? (see the Book of Job).
V
VRemember, to he that much has been given much will be expected? The servant that was given 4 dinaris or whatever was expected to have four or more… The point I am trying to make here is that we cannot not only judge people but we cannot judge God.

Matthew 20

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
V
V
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

(1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. "

Actually, those passages do not address damnation. As I explained in an earlier post (Nimeniton’s first post cited those passage) all these passages refer to temporal matters. It does not say that Pharaoh was damned, it does not say that God is selective about being merciful. All it says it is God’s prerogative to be merciful as He pleases. As the vineyard passage illustrates, if anything, it is saying that God is merciful beyond what we find deserving of mercy. So in effect the phrase " I will have mercy on who I will have mercy, is like God saying, “who are you to tell me that I should confine my mercy to those whom you think deserve my mercy. I am God and I will mercy on whom I will have mercy.” You could probably say that in human terms He is “foolishly generous with His mercy”.

It does appear limited at prima facie but that was Paul’s response and God’s response.We need to be humble and understand that we are not creating a God as we go along, but, God created us and he really does exist. We need to try to find him not create him.

Peace,

Abba

Actually questioning it’s application is not questioning God - just the application of the passage. As I have pointed out a few times before, all the passages that people cite for predestination to hell do not say that at all.

On a predestination thread, another member asked me who was I to question God. I replied: “I am not questioning God. I am questioning you and your erroneous use of the passage. To equate my questioning of you with questioning God is arrogance.”

 

[fred_conty]

Some have said that hell is not forever. A survey asking this very question
and most people believed this, except catholics. Hell does last
forever without end, is an article of the catholic church.

When we die, we will be in a different state or condition in the after life.
We will be outside of time. We don’t know exactly, but it will be quite
different. Predicated on that, things will not be as they are today with us.
I think for that reason alone, as we will see differently, this question of
suffering will take on an overtone which we do not have in this present
life. And for that matter, many other mysterious items we face in our
current condition of human existence. The light we need to see things
as they really are will be shinning to illuminate our intellect. But now
we don’t really see in a clear way. We now stand on planet earth
in an awkward small slant of narrow vision.
So IMO this question cannot at this time be adequately answered and
probably at best, can only be answered badly.

However someone quoted St. Thomas on his thought of those already in
hell and why they remain there. He says that they do not want pain or
suffering. But that they would do the sin all over again if given the
opportunity just to be defiant and obstinant because they hate God.

Some people are there not because they were defiant, but because they
were sensual and without self control. But when they die, things are now
different than their earthly life, and so are defiant and want no part of God.
They would rather suffer than submit even tho they do not want the pain.

Admitedly St. Thomas is not the church, but he was a great man in the
church, a doctor of it. However tho it is only his opinion it seems to
make good sense why they chose to continue in pain rather than submission.

IMO noone chooses hell in this world. What they choose is pleasure, wealth, etc.
It looks good to them, but they don’t chose hell. I believe they only know this
absolutely at the moment of death when the truth shines like the blazing sun and
they could not deny it for it becomes so overwhelming. But then it is, that they
realize it is too late. Now they see themselves as they are for the first time.
The only way to avoid this is trust in God’s revelation and to follow it.

 

[wheels10]

Not refuses because He gives the grace to everyone. As I have stated a few times before, grace is always given to do the right thing, to say yes to God.

As to the “unable to save” bit, well I view it this way: God has willingly curtailed His omnipotence by giving man free will. In trying to safeguard the omnipotence of God, theologians have instead came up with a God who damns man. So in this regard, it is not a case of inability to save man. But because He has created man with free will, He cannot over ride that free will. Salvation has to respect that free will.

Speaking from personal experience, I know that God gives the grace always to say yes, so when I say No, I willfully say No to this grace to follow Him.

I agree that Jesus would like to give us many Graces. However many of us are unable to receive these Graces. Only a humble soul is prepared to receive the Grace of God.

 

[benedictus2]

I agree that Jesus would like to give us many Graces. However many of us are unable to receive these Graces. Only a humble soul is prepared to receive the Grace of God.

Very much so. Much like rain falls freely but we won’t get wet if we persist on staying under the umbrella.

Which is why I have always maintained that the path to salvation is humility. Christ become 'human" - from humus - of the earth so that we will learn to accept our creaturedness. In the end humility is simply that, to accept that we are humus and thus in need of God’s grace.

 

[benedictus2]

Some have said that hell is not forever. A survey asking this very question
and most people believed this, except catholics. Hell does last
forever without end, is an article of the catholic church.

When we die, we will be in a different state or condition in the after life.
We will be outside of time. We don’t know exactly, but it will be quite
different. Predicated on that, things will not be as they are today with us.
I think for that reason alone, as we will see differently, this question of
suffering will take on an overtone which we do not have in this present
life. And for that matter, many other mysterious items we face in our
current condition of human existence. The light we need to see things
as they really are will be shinning to illuminate our intellect. But now
we don’t really see in a clear way. We now stand on planet earth
in an awkward small slant of narrow vision.
So IMO this question cannot at this time be adequately answered and
probably at best, can only be answered badly.

However someone quoted St. Thomas on his thought of those already in
hell and why they remain there. He says that they do not want pain or
suffering. But that they would do the sin all over again if given the
opportunity just to be defiant and obstinant because they hate God.

Some people are there not because they were defiant, but because they
were sensual and without self control. But when they die, things are now
different than their earthly life, and so are defiant and want no part of God.
They would rather suffer than submit even tho they do not want the pain.

Admitedly St. Thomas is not the church, but he was a great man in the
church, a doctor of it. However tho it is only his opinion it seems to
make good sense why they chose to continue in pain rather than submission.

IMO noone chooses hell in this world. What they choose is pleasure, wealth, etc.
It looks good to them, but they don’t chose hell. I believe they only know this
absolutely at the moment of death when the truth shines like the blazing sun and
they could not deny it for it becomes so overwhelming. But then it is, that they
realize it is too late. Now they see themselves as they are for the first time.
The only way to avoid this is trust in God’s revelation and to follow it.

Hey, that is a really good post! Excellent!

 

[wheels10]

Very much so. Much like rain falls freely but we won’t get wet if we persist on staying under the umbrella.

Which is why I have always maintained that the path to salvation is humility. Christ become 'human" - from humus - of the earth so that we will learn to accept our creaturedness. **In the end humility is simply that, to accept that we are humus and thus in need of God’s grace. **

The only thing that we can say is our very own is our choice to do Good or evil. Since no human being has ever created anything out of nothing, everything else belongs to God.